#62 Getting out of your own way with Annie Bradberry
“[Success] wasn’t about not stuttering; it was about the lack of judgment on myself when I stutter...that’s where the shame starts to go away.”
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
BIO:
Annie, a long-time member of the National Stuttering Association, served as Executive Director from 1993-2003, she also served the organization in many capacities throughout the years from chapter leader, regional coordinator, board member. She also served as past Chair of the International Stuttering Association and a host for Stutter Social, an online community for people who stutter. With her involvement spanning over 40 years she is currently the co-coordinator of the NSA’s First Timers Programming. Continuing her passion for the stuttering community, Annie currently serves on the Self Help and Advocacy committee for the International Fluency Association and presents workshops, in-service trainings to local universities and school districts whenever she can. Annie’s full-time job is Executive Director of a national non-profit in Southern California.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00-04:19 -Opening remarks
04:19-14:14 -Anita shares how she deals with reactions from non-stutterers
14:14-29:19 -How Annie found peace and acceptance as PWS
29:19-34:11 -How SLPs can shift PWS from shame to peace
34:11-41:26 -The flawed expectations SLPs have in stuttering therapy
41:26-46:25 -How self-talk can change your life
46:25-49:41 -Un-stuffing our heads and taking baby steps
49:41-51:33 -Closing remarks
RESOURCE LIST
“I grew up with the stuttering community. And I really feel that, that it has has shaped me to be who I am. I feel so blessed. And I always say to those young or any, no matter what age you find this community, it can change. It can change you if you embrace it. It really will. There are always people who say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, but I came to a realization at one point in my life that this is m-my stutter, and it's my responsibility to, educate when I choose everything's when I choose share when I choose. And when I started to realize that I stopped focusing on what other people were possibly thinking” -Annie Bradberry
I think there's great wisdom from these conversations and anecdotes of people's life journeys. And I think we just have to contextualize things and not take something that was true for one person and copy paste it as a blanket copy paste to another person, no matter their age, no matter their stage. -Uri Schneider
TRANSCRIPTION:
Opening remarks
Uri Schneider: Okay, good morning. And it's a really special morning. It's a big treat. My name's Uri Schneider be the host here and lead on Transcending Stuttering. And our guest today shows one of the best titles, Annie Bradbury suggested the title and I love it so much. It should be, posted on our fridges, tattooed on our foreheads embolded on our t-shirts.
Uri Schneider: They should be on the bathroom mirror. When we wake up in the morning, they didn't, how are we going to get through today? We got so much standing in our way and the title is How To Get Out Of Our Own Way. I'll let Annie really unpack that I don't even want to go all the directions and ways that I thought about that.
Uri Schneider: But I also want to just give a proper introduction.
Uri Schneider: That's by sharing it.
Annie Bradberry: I know, I can't hear you.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. Can you hear me now?
Annie Bradberry: Yes,
Uri Schneider: There we go, I call that technology stuttering. It's a little bit of a pause and if you hang in, it's worth the wait. So here we are. What I was saying was Annie and I are going to try to be super present. And if you feel like you'd like to share this conversation, that'd be awesome because I can guarantee you.
Uri Schneider: You're going to hear some great stuff and some perspective. So I'll share with you. You have the opportunity to hear from Annie Bradbury.
Introducing Annie
Uri Schneider: Annie is a time member of the National Stuttering Association, NSA, parenthesis. This summer having missed last year's conference will be in full effect in Austin, Texas.
Uri Schneider: I look forward to seeing those of you that will be there. I'll be there. I'll be presenting on Thursday. My buddy, Dan Greenwald is coming for his first time. He'll be presenting on Thursday as well. And so many of you may be coming. You can post your comments and encouragement to those that might be listening as to how valuable and experience it could be.
Uri Schneider: If you are someone who stutters or you love someone who stutters. And then also aside on that's on the week of 4th of July at the end of the week, 4th of July. So the next few days after, and then the following week after that Friends For Young People Who Stutters having their conference in Colorado.
Uri Schneider: So if you can do both, you can get a nice trip through Texas and Colorado, or if you can do only one. Both highly recommended. Okay. Close parentheses. So Annie served as the executive director of the NSA from 93 to 2003. Notice that I left off the century there. She also served the organization in many capacities throughout the year.
Uri Schneider: Chapter leader, regional coordinator, board member, and more. She's been a chair of the International Stuttering Association, a host for stutter, social. Which is an amazing ahead of its own time, online community for People Who Stutter. So before COVID long before, COVID a small group of people. And I believe we talked about this on several episodes, a small group of forward-thinking people realized let's have meetups for People Who Stutter online and back then it was Skype.
Uri Schneider: It was Google Hangouts. It's now developed a Google Meet, but wherever you are in the world, these are online opportunities to know that you're not alone. So check it out, Stutter Social, back to Annie's story. So you see she's been pretty productive in many different spaces around the world she's been involved for over 40 years.
Uri Schneider: She's currently the co-coordinator of the NSA first-timer programming. So if you go to the NSA for the first time, You're going to get a touch of what she's all about and continuing her passion and a stuttering community, she serves on the self-help and advocacy committee for the International Fluency Association.
Uri Schneider: She presents workshops, in-service trainings for local universities and school districts. Whenever she can. She recently posted a picture. What was that picture? It was like 40 years running or something like that presenting for a particular class. So if you're looking for a, an in-service or a speaker put her at the top of your list.
Uri Schneider: And her full-time job is as it's currently as an executive director of a national nonprofit in Southern California, it's an honor and a privilege to welcome Annie. Who's also a personal lifelong friend of my father and of mine. And with that, I always say, Annie, welcome and feel free to share something that's not in the bio that you'd like people to know about.
Anita shares how she deals with reactions from non-stutterers
Annie Bradberry: A few things were going through my mind when you were reading that is that I grew up with the stuttering community. And I really feel that, that it has has shaped me to be who I am. I feel so blessed. And I always say to those young or any, no matter what age you find this community, it can change.
Annie Bradberry: It will change you if you embrace it. It really will. And I am so grateful and blessed to be here today and to be a part of this community. It's beautiful. And the title of Getting Out Of Our Own Way is I realized in my journey, there's those aha moments we have.
Annie Bradberry: And one of them was that. And this is not like raw. This is not like, whoa, this is not an Oprah moment. This is just, this is, we all see this, but there was a time for me that I knew it, but then I just stopped and said, okay, we need to face this is that it wasn't the reactions of others. And I have strong feelings about that and opinions and it wasn't it just wasn't the reaction of others.
Annie Bradberry: It was basically this, it was me. Getting in my own way. And often , it was really hit me, was when I was reacting to a non-verbal situation where I was already projecting in my head, what was going to happen and what my reaction was going to be. And I'm like, that's exhausting. I can't do that anymore. And for me, that was a real pivotal.
Annie Bradberry: Time that, it's this switch, went off. And then I realized I was in my own way. And I find that rolls over into all as aspects of my my, my life. It really does. So bless you. Was that a sneeze or
Annie Bradberry: cough?
Uri Schneider: I intended to mute myself and instead I un-muted just at the moment that I had a laryngeal spasm, otherwise known as an allergic cough.
Annie Bradberry: I have a small little summer cold that I got from a grand baby loving me this last weekend. So I will be grabbing Kleenex and trying not to sound too nasal.
Uri Schneider: Nothing good comes for free. So as we said before, we got on, we'll take Annie with the summer cold and I'm sure you would take it also to have that sweet grandchild spending time with you, even though it left you with a warm heart, but also a little sniffles in your nose.
Uri Schneider: Can you tell us more about, that was my ears were something was happening in me as you were sharing that. And I was trying to picture at what point in your life you're describing and maybe what that meant. If you want to go there or share any more,
Annie Bradberry: Yeah. There's been a couple of those moments cause I'm, I've been like, it's a long journey.
Annie Bradberry: I found The Stuttering Organization when I was just, 19, 20 ish and I just turned 63 last week. So seriously, it's been a journey and I always say I go three steps forward, take two steps, back, and then I go and it's usually I'm really into self-reflection.
Annie Bradberry: So that's been very helpful for me. This there's been a couple of times. The first time I had that moment was when I stopped getting angry at the world. At the listener. And I, like I said earlier, I have strong feelings about that. There are people out there. Yeah. They're just, we could, I could give them words.
Annie Bradberry: I shouldn't be saying that this time of day. There are always people who say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, but I came to a realization at one point in my life that this is m-my stutter, and it's my responsibility to, educate when I choose everything's when I choose share when I choose.
Annie Bradberry: And when I started to realize that I stopped focusing on what other people were possibly thinking again, that goes back to get out of my own way. Cause I don't really know unless they are that small percent of people that vocalize. Not good stuff. It was all here. So when I realized it was so much of my own projections and then realized that listener may, maybe.
Annie Bradberry: They have never seen this before. I'm very re-re-rep repetitious and I stutter more when I don't feel well. And I've been stuttering more since with my, as an outcome of COVID for me has been a little bit, I call it my sloppy stuttering, not as smooth as I like it to be. So I That for me when I realized, okay, I'm doing something you maybe have never seen, maybe you have, but never up close and personal.
Annie Bradberry: So I'm going to tell you about it. If I'm in the mood, I'm going to let you, I'm like not letting the listener off the hook. Cause I know a lot of people disagree with me. But it's like when I let go of the fight, and just said, Hey, this is who I am. Let me talk to you. Most people. Are interested, embrace it.
Annie Bradberry: If they were like, what's the good word for a person? We don't like how they react. I don't want all these adjectives that come into my mind that you're not supposed to say a jerk. Good work much better than what I was thinking.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. We're just doing the, this is the rated G version Nina G was on last week.
Uri Schneider: Believe me. She had a harder time than you keeping up.
Annie Bradberry: It's really, it's hard.
Annie Bradberry: It's hard to get that G. I yeah I just realized even those, the jerks, they just when you face them with, Hey, it's whoa, they also they realize they're being a jerk.
Annie Bradberry: And so that to me was the first time that when I started to stop. Worrying and judging them, thinking that they're judging me. Cause it's like it's equal. You don't realize that when I'm having a negative feeling about somebody's reaction, either they're a jerk and I see it or feel it or hear it or I'm projecting it.
Annie Bradberry: It's the same thing. The next moment for me was when I went through some intensive speech therapy and look and looked at it. And saw it and saw what I was doing and realized I don't like you. I don't like what you're doing to my face. I don't need an extra chin. When I put my head went down here, I, all these things.
Annie Bradberry: I started to be more kind and more interested and it's really weird to say interested, but that's when I started to analyze what is going on like knowing, my speech is not great when I'm not feeling well. When I, when this gets stuffy, this gets sloppy. It's just, that's a lifelong thing.
Annie Bradberry: So that was another moment for me, where I just went, okay. Let's not get caught up in this difficult cycle. Let's, try to understand it. Knowing that my eyes just closed, I'm usually the queen of eye contact, but right now I'm not. So I knew that I just did a little, maybe you thought I was flirting cause I was fluttering and I don't know.
Annie Bradberry: But and then looking at it on an overview and realize it, all those is stepping out of my own way and just yeah. Does that make any sense?
Uri Schneider: More sense than you can imagine. And you're getting a lot of resonance from around the world. You've got Trudy Stewarts and love from the, oh my goodness.
Uri Schneider: I
Annie Bradberry: met her so many years ago. Hi, judy,
Uri Schneider: you got Anita Blom sending lots of love from Sweden and I don't know, Mara Ormond also sending hearts. There you go. Good. Bringing them all out. Not my girlfriends. They're all yours. So it's great. It's great to have you here and to just know, yeah, not only does it make sense, it resonates.
Uri Schneider: There's just a lot of reactions coming in. So post your questions and comments. We'll try to weave them into this otherwise flowing conversation, but what a, what an honest share, I'd love to have you take us even further with it. Like two things that strike me. One is what you're talking about. Sounds pretty significant.
Uri Schneider: And I think it's easy to think it's replicable and a message to pass on to anyone at any stage. And I was wondering with your perspective, thoughts about what age were you, what stage of life, or what stage in your journey where you, and how this was something you were able to do then, but perhaps not as a 12 year old girl, there was a 16 year old girl I'm interested in the value of what you're saying, but also the timing.
Uri Schneider: And delivery of these opportunities to open that door. Not necessarily being right for everybody at every moment, but potentially with the right timing and the person being at the right stage, a real opener and at the wrong stage and in the wrong timing, a real. Turn off, yeah. I was curious, I guess to be more blunt or explicit, I think there's great wisdom from these conversations and anecdotes of people's life journeys. And I think we just have to contextualize things and not take something that was true for one person and copy paste it as a blanket copy paste to another person, no matter their age, no matter their stage.
Uri Schneider: So I'm just thinking certain things. We can do it at 20. We couldn't do when we were eight. Certain things we can do at 30, 40, we couldn't do it 20. And so just curious if you could shed light on like where you were at in your life and also maybe in your journey that allowed this to happen at that moment, but perhaps couldn't have happened earlier.
Uri Schneider: As much as it's wisdom that's timeless. Does that make sense?
Annie Bradberry: I think so. And if not, you have to put me back on track.
Annie Bradberry: Okay.
Uri Schneider: Yeah no. We're going on. We're just, we're meandering on this trail and we've got time. It's time-based it's not destination. It's a treasure to be with you. Thanks for taking the time.
How Annie found peace and acceptance as PWS
Annie Bradberry: This is an honor. It's an honor. It's a Yeah, a couple of things are going through my mind. I wrote down one thing, one of the messages I've always said and shared, if I've had the opportunity, it was baby steps. I am all about self care. I, my mom raised me to know about self care, young age and it's, and that rolled over into my self care of my stuttering and that is Kindness.
Annie Bradberry: And so baby steps for me, I've, everybody knows me since I always say that is I'm a firm believer that if you find the organization, if you find an organization, NSA is in my heart and soul. If you find the stuttering community, I don't care if it's at, 18 25, 35 , 50. I call that it's almost, this is weird, like a rebirth.
Annie Bradberry: So I say to somebody, okay, you're 44 years old and you just found this the community. And so now you're taking these steps. You're learning from somebody you're hearing, you're listening. Remember you're as old as when you started this journey. So if you find I'm 63, if I find it today, okay, I'm still.
Annie Bradberry: Still need to take baby steps and it's not, it doesn't happen overnight. And I see this in Stutter Social all the time is, people coming in, I just did for the NSA older adults who stutter and a woman came in, who has late onset stuttering. And so she's just, think about it.
Annie Bradberry: I've had a lifetime to learn how to cope. She, and she's the first time she met and heard other women who stutter. We talked about baby steps, it's just not, it, you gotta allow yourself the journey. The journey is the part. I think the key is allowing yourself to go on a journey.
Annie Bradberry: The first one. I'm really blessed that I like elementary years and nothing. I honestly, speech, nothing affected me. It didn't have an impact in my life, but in junior college I went to a speech center and there was a group a group for people who stutter and Glen Smith was the SLP.
Annie Bradberry: He trained under Joseph Shein. And we went on a field trip and I got to go up to UCLA. I went in, I was in Joe and Vivian's home. And at that moment is when that was my first shift. My first paradigm shift that's when it's okay to stutter, began. And then shortly found the NSA right after that. And that kinda like propels you cause that's their motto.
Annie Bradberry: And then from that experience I started to get that mindset that it's okay to stutter and find humor in my that's when it became not so serious. And it became interesting for me. And then shortly after that I had the first one of the first what do you call them? Like survivor, the re reality shows was that's incredible, and they went up to Eastern Washington University and interview Dr.
Annie Bradberry: Dover Brightfield with the successful stuttering management program and my parents and I were there like going. And it wasn't a cure and it wasn't a quick fix. It was a sheen van riper thought process three and a half week intensive program. And that's before we had the internet or we couldn't do this. So the only way that I could be accepted into this program was flying up there and doing a face-to-face with Dr.
Annie Bradberry: B. And because, and this is when the first thing of true acceptance got in here is because he would not accept me in the program. If I was looking for a cure, my expectations had to be realistic. And I had to agree to his expectations. So it was a give and take. I learned that right from him.
Annie Bradberry: That was also, I have to say this. I'll never forget this because I went up there myself. And when I got out of the taxi, I went out of the guy out of the air, had to catch a cab taxi to go to Eastern Washington. I wrote down on a piece of paper where I wanted to go. I didn't say it. That was the first time I had done that because I had never really done that kind of an adventure.
Annie Bradberry: And it was the level last time I wrote down what I wanted to say instead of using my voice. And so I went there.
Uri Schneider: You're how old
Annie Bradberry: I am. I went probably 1920.
Uri Schneider: So you were with your parents watching TV and this episode came on, this was that same year or was it a couple of years later? It
Annie Bradberry: was the same year.
Annie Bradberry: It was like, it was, eight o'clock at night call and the next morning that's
Uri Schneider: how you're like a teenager in upper high school or something at that point
Annie Bradberry: 19. So I'd probably just, yeah,
Uri Schneider: it's a matter of something like that. So you see it on TV, it speaks to you, you get on the plane and then just to highlight what you just described for most people, they know exactly what you're talking about for anyone that might not have like the context for a person who stutters, there are many things one can do.
Uri Schneider: They can get the words out one way or another. They can choose to switch words. Some I'm not encouraging. I'm describing the things people do. They might switch their words. Okay. Substitution, circumlocutions talk around it. So turn a one word sentence into, a whole long dialogue that actually might even hit the mark at the end, or maybe it goes a different direction.
Uri Schneider: But perhaps the most dramatic thing that one could do is to like bail on their voice entirely and put it on a piece of paper. And I think I like how that's captured in a film called Transcending Stuttering, The Inside Story. And you'll see multiple renditions of this, of what my father titled the chapter Hitting Rock Bottom.
Uri Schneider: And then often that's the moment as Annie said, that was the first time. And that was the last time you decided I'm not going there again. So I just wanted to punctuate that. That was very powerful.
Uri Schneider: What you shared.
Annie Bradberry: Yeah. And that's pure shame. It's hiding. It's taken it's avoidance to a whole nother level.
Annie Bradberry: And and so it was amazing. Think about that. I had to get on a plane just to be accepted. And so realizing that what I was going for wasn't a cure. It was a greater understanding and I summarize it peace. I, and I really didn't even plan to talk about this. It's interesting. The , 3 and a half week program for the first half, the first week and a half there was no therapy.
Annie Bradberry: There was. Looking at yourself, a tally book, every time you stuttered. So you could start to understand what was going on physically as well as, as well. And so this transcended into that, lessening the fight, because I started to understand like today, I know my speech is a little bit more difficult, I am going to squirrel, so bring me back.
Annie Bradberry: Okay. Cause I forget where I go, but I gave it when I I gave a talk to that university Monday night when I use voluntary stuttering, which is a good tool. It goes real for me. It goes deep. It goes back to the four SSMP and I have to pull out. And I open up , my talks to the universities like that.
Annie Bradberry: And even did it on a zoom in person is better. Cause they, what comes back is not just this, but the physicality, the hand clenching my leg, moving the, if I'm holding a desk, I could lift it. Oh, and so then I get, then I cancel it and I go back and it's really fun because, and tell you why I'm going there, but it's really fun because I, then I get them to open up and say, how many of you thought this is going to be the longest hour of your life?
Annie Bradberry: And they're like, and you just watch them go. And then we talk, how many of you, they're supposed to look at my eyes, but how many were looking at my chin because my lips are going a little, so it's cool, but I haven't been able to snap out of it. For the first time.
Annie Bradberry: And I don't know if it's because I'm a little under the weather because my speech has been more difficult, but usually I could cancel it out and I'm back to smooth me. I'm not I'm not it's really. So instead of getting angry and going, what the hell? Excuse me. Hello. I. I'm trying to be kind and understand getting a small cold on top of the way I'm feeling from my COVID leftovers.
Annie Bradberry: This is it right now. So it's fascinating. I'm really trying to figure out why can't I can't get back to that moment on Monday night. So going back to the SSMP, it just, so the first week and a half is all about looking at it. Interviewing people in the community to find out that they really don't care and they're interested in me.
Annie Bradberry: And,
Uri Schneider: And you just use that word that I just want to reflect. You said that you've learned that the people in the community are just interested in you.
Annie Bradberry: Yeah.
Uri Schneider: And you used that word earlier to say for the first time you got interested in yourself and interested in your own stutter, same word, it was this opening.
Uri Schneider: It was this opening it. And when you said it, you said, oh, that's an interesting choice of words, but I love it. It's that idea of, as you said, feeling, I think you said free or liberated, you didn't need to say liberated. I think you said free peace. Use the word, feeling peace and the opportunity to just see.
Uri Schneider: Yourself as you are. And to tolerate that. And I think what you were just sharing, like even now an earlier version of you or someone who expected things were going to get a bit easier, a bit smoother, and they're not, that could really throw somebody. I think that has to do with expectation and frustration as a function of expectations.
Uri Schneider: So you've got these expectation that isn't met. You get more frustrated, but if you yesterday, we did a clubhouse every Wednesday, 11:00 AM Eastern. And I was inspired by your title and I'm squirreling, but I'm going to come right back. I was inspired by your title, getting out of our own way. And I was going through a rough day, the day before.
Uri Schneider: So the clubhouse topic was how to bounce back because all of us are going to strive. If we're human, we're going to strive for today to be a great day. And it's likely we're going to have some curve balls we expected or didn't expect or could have expected. That's not surprising. The surprising part is how do we face them?
Uri Schneider: And so I use the word bouncing back and my friend Dan Greenwald had a beautiful take on that. He said, why don't we just drop the word back? How do we bounce? How do we bounce? And we're not talking about speech, we're talking about like, how do you bounce through those moments? Not with intention to get back on something back on some track, but how do you bounce with.
Uri Schneider: The curve balls. I love as I'm listening to you, Annie, as you said, usually, this would be a moment where you'd be smooth, Annie, let's just bounce with it. Let's just roll with it. Happy to get any, Annie so back to your reflecting on that whole experience, but you were saying how you went into the community and you were refreshed.
Uri Schneider: And it was a moment of wow, people are interested in me and not stuck on as that as much as I thought they were.
Annie Bradberry: And it changed my life. It really did. I want to square off of one second. I wrote something down. I'm a very spiritual person and I there's a thing in that community is order up your day.
Annie Bradberry: And sometimes this is just can reflect if anybody's listening out there and you wake up and, sometimes we know. Or it nothing to do with even stuttering, it's just you can, we can restart our day anytime. And so it's like a restart your day order up and your day at that moment, sometimes it's the mornings rushed and I'm crazy, and everything is just not in place mentally, physically, and I'll drive to work.
Annie Bradberry: And just I'm going to order up my order of the day right now. We're going to do a restart. And I find that helps me also with my, my my speech or just wherever I'm at anything, whatever it is contributing. So yeah,
Uri Schneider: Just to reflect back. The love is pouring in from countries around the globe.
Uri Schneider: A comment from Ghent, Belgium from Gareth Annie, one of my favorite people, one of the kindest hearts. You'll ever meet. I couldn't agree more. Thank
Annie Bradberry: you. And I love his city. I got to go. I'm squirreling again, but when I was speaking Monday night and they were asking me about that question, they were talking about how long I've been involved in my age and what I want to.
Annie Bradberry: Looking back. Do I want to wish I didn't stutter? And I said, I've traveled around the world because I stutter , my first conference. My international conference was to Ghent, and that's where I met Anita. And I think that's where I met Trudy. And that was a long time
Annie Bradberry: ago, yeah.
Uri Schneider: Five years ago or something. It's unbelievable that time flies
Annie Bradberry: a long time. So I looked back and I, all of these experiences in my life are because of this. So SSMP my biggest takeaway about that, that I am grateful that I, I worked hard when I came home. I, practiced every day at lunch on my speech, I went into my car with my cassette player back then and practice on this tape that they sent me home.
Annie Bradberry: And I really feel that was because you go home on a high you're almost on a fluency high. And I did that. And I think that was really important to where I am today. But the biggest takeaway was no matter. Like even right now, no matter how my, my stuttering might be. And I measure it by I called it slow.
Annie Bradberry: I don't call it bad. I'm not having bad days. I have more difficult days. But it's a little sloppy, eye closure and this and that. So I, no matter, I'm still talking, I'm still participating. And that is what the big change was because years ago, as I get this gets worse, my speech gets worse.
Annie Bradberry: I'll never forget this squirrel squirrel. I was at work that here this work, this job, and I'm in my office. And outside my office was a couple cubicles and my door's open and I'm on the phone. And as I get more stuffy, my speech deteriorates and I see this young man literally pull out his chair, look around at me because he's hearing me go from easy stuttering to some intense stuttering.
Annie Bradberry: He's whoa. And I just remember that is just, it happens. It happens, but I'm still here. I'm still gonna work. I'm still gonna participate in life. And that is the best takeaway because there it's, we know it's cycles. We know that it's out of our hands. But if I can stay level here and it's hard, then I can.
Annie Bradberry: Deal with the cycles of my life and my stuttering life. So you got to put me back on track.
How SLPs can shift PWS from shame to peace
Uri Schneider: Who am I to put you on track, getting us on track? Trudy had a question. I got a lot of responses to it. So I think you touched on it in your experience, but she was asking practical advice or reflection on.
Uri Schneider: What SLPs can do to help people make that move from the shame and guilt and self critique to a place that you're describing. Any thoughts on that? And obviously, for people themselves who might stutter or for parents, you can shape this in any way you'd like, but I think for those listening that are thinking about this, I think to realize that in the world, you have a lot of allies that.
Uri Schneider: That intentionally want to do that. They want to be supportive. They want to be there to help a person evolve and unfold and flourish. It could be at work. It could be at school could be at a party. It could be kids in first grade with each other. People inherently are good. They're also a bunch of jerks out there.
Uri Schneider: Let's not paint a rosy picture that that shouldn't be entirely rosy. There are also some thorns along the way. So it's not unreasonable that people learn. That their difference might be intolerable, but what are some thoughts that you might have for people that want to, take a step to help nurture that process from self-critique and shame and guilt to freedom and the peace to be?
Annie Bradberry: It's a big question because of my head just went all over the place. Cause
Uri Schneider: take us.
Annie Bradberry: The most fresh in my mind is Monday when I spoke to the, it was 35 students and they asked the same question. So I, to the young clinician, to the new clinician is there's no cookie cutter approach.
Annie Bradberry: Talk to us, we even talked about the young child using different words or, circumventing the topic even, or that we do it. We know what we're doing, and we feel it, I think for the child to, of course the adult, but just to be open, this is not for Trudy cause she's a seasoned specialist, clinician, but like for the new clinician is,
Annie Bradberry: stutter with us, let us know that, that when I did that, my, I couldn't unstick it, or I'm using, if I'm, when the word love my, I can't get that my tongue sometimes off the roof of my mouth and do that with us. And that's just for the young clinician is just be open, be honest, acknowledge it because, I spent my early years reading out of a book.
Annie Bradberry: It didn't do anything for me, but I wish that, that, that time they had said, how is it feeling for you? And I think as we age and we get older, my advice to people who stutter when they're seeking speech therapy, is exactly what I went through back with, Dr. B is what are my expectations and what are,
Annie Bradberry: the expectations of the clinician They. Have to match, not everybody is like friends or people that you meet. You meet some people and you click and some people you don't. So I think it's the same thing. Sometimes it's not a match that I think it has to be realistic expectations. John Harrison, for those that know John Harrison, he's my mentor.
Annie Bradberry: And he helped me through so many major times in my life. And he, and I live by this number one, am I being reactive or proactive? I used to keep it on my wall at work until it became ingrained and it helps me and helps the other person. But then that everything anger, frustration, sadness what's the word being, let down my expectations haven't been met.
Annie Bradberry: And so for me to go into speech therapy or going with her to do anything, what is my honest, what do I want? Can it be obtained isn't realistic. And as a clinician, is that a realistic expectation for you to provide that to me? Does that make sense? So it's, to me it's the.
Annie Bradberry: When I said earlier today in the beginning, I can't be very remember something I said earlier today about it's very important for me that own it. I call it's my stuttering. So I am not so impacted, by other people's thoughts or opinions of what they think stuttering should be like the, I stutter I'm a PWS or I am a stutterer, there's this?
Annie Bradberry: So the same thing goes to, I'm just trying to, I'm losing myself. You have to help me.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. Idea of helping people move from that shame place of the freedom and the piece you were talking about. You're right on point, just keep rolling.
Annie Bradberry: So it's just about staying focused on myself, making sure that my expectations, going back to Trudy's question, making sure, I think dialogue, open dialogue of where you want to go, where can we go?
Annie Bradberry: How are we going to get there? And and then looking at ourselves, I think that
The flawed expectations SLPs have in stuttering therapy
Annie Bradberry: The mechanical part of speech therapy is super important, but it's more about
Annie Bradberry: impact of all the changes that we're going through and the attitude I speaking to LA unified school district a million years ago, and I don't prepare for things. I go, okay. And, but this time, because LA unified has 50,000 speech pathologists. And so I went with my little index cards and they said, if you get there early, could just go sit in the back of the class.
Annie Bradberry: And we're not a class we're having our SLP meeting, Bitching session, whatever. And I'm sitting there and one clinician says, I just don't know what to do with the student. I've been working with her for three years. She's still stuttering. I need to let, we need to let her go get, make room for other kids.
Annie Bradberry: I'm like, and she goes, and I'm not, I can't, she's still stuttering the same amount and I just ripped my notes. So I started my conversation with them, a little emotional, because that's who I am. And I said, let's talk about what I just heard. And what I found out was this clinician was so hard on herself because she was measuring,
Annie Bradberry: her the student's success based on what, how much stuttering. And she was basing her own success on the same amount of steps. It was still a lot of stuttering. So I said, so tell me about your student. Tell me about what she was like the first day you met her. And she said she looked down at the ground.
Annie Bradberry: She didn't talk, she didn't participate in class. And I said, so can you tell me something about her today? And she started to laugh internally and I said, what's going on? And she goes, she just got in trouble in this class for stuttering, for speaking, talking too much. And then we started talking about that and she goes, and she tried out for the play and I'm like, hello.
Annie Bradberry: Hello, I'm getting goosebumps, remembering that situation and that how she started to then look at this young child, this teenager differently to realize, wow, I said, you've changed her life. She got in trouble in school for talking. How many of us would try out for a play today?
Annie Bradberry: No. And then she really, that was a major shift in that room that day about what is success? So for me that what is success when it wasn't about not stuttering, but it was more about how I feel when I stutter and the lack of judgment on myself when I stutter and that's where the shame starts to go away.
Annie Bradberry: I did. I feel like it's tired you out.
Uri Schneider: Oh, no, I got good stamina. I took a nap before this cause I knew it was going to be, it was going to be a goodie. Actually just had a fleeting second there and I posted, I said an instant classic with Annie Bradbury and we're not even done yet. This is an amazing, powerful episode.
Uri Schneider: One, one comment, and then I'll just share two things that were said by some other guests that really, amplify what you're saying or point, punctuate it. First of all, I think, and we talked a little bit before we got on, there's a lot of frustration when you go in there and you see those SLPs and the way they talk about what they think their goals are and the way they communicate and position and write their lessons or their plans or their exercises, and talk about young people and how, what they think they're working on.
Uri Schneider: And, and often it feels to those who've seen it or been through it, and it's been less than desirable or less than productive or less than helpful. It's those are those people are doing bad things. And I guess I would just say how beautiful it is that you reached that SLP and you were able to uncover, the true intentions there.
Uri Schneider: And this SLP was just doing the best they thought they were supposed to be doing because they thought. This was the target. And I think shout out to the great work of many great educators and instructors around the country who get it, people that are part of this tidal shift of at an early stage, implanting in imprinting into the minds of the next generation of training speech, language pathologists around the world.
Uri Schneider: It's more than just what you hear at the lips and goals can be written and lessons can be planned and experiences can be delivered in a school, certainly in a clinic, certainly in a private practice and in camps and conferences and so on. But you can be an SLP that can do this work with spirit and with heart.
Uri Schneider: And I'm happy and proud that in our Transcending Stuttering community, where we're cultivating SLPs, who have that desire and supporting them and networking them together, that there is a subgroup. Of instructors from around the world who are sharing ideas of how to, teach this and train this into the outcoming.
Uri Schneider: Next round of professionals. So that's super exciting. And I'm just excited to share that with you and with all the people out there. So you'll have a little less work at the LA district school meetings because those meetings can be very long, but keep doing you're doing, I just, I was going to count call it just bring attention how this series we're up this number 62 now just to share how it's like a cumulative collection of wisdom and Steff Lebsack likes to say.
Uri Schneider: It's not your, it's not my stutter. Excuse me. She's a therapist. But now she's dealing with some disfluency secondary to some other events in her health and we wish her well and strength but her. Message always is to therapists and to her students. It's not your stutter, it's the person who stutters it's their stutter, not yours, don't hijack their experience.
Uri Schneider: And the other thing that you say any that I thought was great comes on the heels of the conversation with Seth Tichenor Dr. Seth Tichenor up in Michigan, he said not only is it okay to stutter that's an MO mantra, tagline of some of the best, not only is it okay to stutter. It's okay to talk about stuttering.
Uri Schneider: And I think what you're talking about, Annie, and it's a subtle point, but I think for therapists, what you were saying for therapists to make that move from shame and guilt and so much of what you meandered into is saying, you just discovered you got interested with it instead of fighting it clenching it wrestling with it.
Uri Schneider: You were started to be a person who is able to do some self observation. And I think that's a big opening to move into opening up. I can choose to roll with it, bounce with it. I could choose to do something to modulate or adjust it, but I can make a choice suddenly because I have that. Pause button and that ability to see myself in that moment to get out of that washing machine and look at it.
Uri Schneider: And on the other hand, if you're in it, you have no choice, but to fight or to run and hide or to feel like the world is against you. And so just adding to what you're saying and punctuating it with some other wisdom that was collected in the recent episodes. Yeah. Love it. Love it. You talked about, you did share with me and you spontaneously hit some of the talking points that you did share with me.
Uri Schneider: I'll just bring up one more thing that you said. I think I have it here. Hold on just one second. You said there we go. The idea that people in situate, oh,
How self-talk can change your life
Uri Schneider: the power of self-talk. Can you just cause yesterday that came up for me and I was talking to some parents and Yeah. And they were like what's self-talk and I think maybe you want to just shed some light.
Annie Bradberry: Yeah. I'm trying to see if I have my little book here
Uri Schneider: for it for a second, I can give a shout out to John Harrison. I'll just say that on Sunday. On Sunday. I talked about the SSMP. I think if I'm not mistaken, Ari Waldman also went through that experience if I'm not mistaken. So I'll share a quick Ari story and it ends with John Harrison and then I'll pass it back to you.
Uri Schneider: So if you wanna look for the book, it's fine. Last week in our team meeting we all get together. It used to be for bagels for three hours, half hours once a month. Now it's on zoom. It's just as good, just less calories. And my dad just as he often does says, excuse me, for breaking the agenda here, but I just have to share this.
Uri Schneider: And that took us down the following story, which was someone came to my dad and said, I just closed the deal in Midtown Manhattan. It was a commercial real estate deal. And the guy on the other side says, he knows you. And my dad says, oh, that's cool. Who is it? And so the name is Ari. I, my dad says, oh, like Ari who?
Uri Schneider: Oh, Ari Waldman. And my dad says. That's awesome. That's awesome because I knew Ari Waldman and he was a young man, very young man, and for a long time. And he had a pretty profound stutter and somehow some way he just had this dominable spirit and somehow believed he could do it and chose a career and a path.
Uri Schneider: And today as a married man and as a professional in commercial real estate, as a side hustle, he also has this organization, he's putting together Pathway With Stuttering. And so my dad says, wow, that's pretty amazing because I know he has a really big stutter. And if Ari, you would know that you also might know that over the COVID he's been doing Facebook lives and just putting himself out there and pushing his own comfort zone.
Uri Schneider: And it's inspiring the consistency and the effort. And this man said, oh no, you must have someone else. Cause the guy I did the deal with doesn't stutter. And I say that story, not to say, anyone should shoot for not stuttering. I say that story to say Ari decided he was going to get married or he decided he was going to do commercial real estate.
Uri Schneider: He went out there and he did it as a Person Who Stutters. And he also decided he wanted to work on his oral communication skills. And he worked on that too. And so anything is possible. Any path, any career, nothing is conditioned or like conditional, like if this, then that go for it. And I think it's just a beautiful story.
Uri Schneider: So Ari asked me to do a talk and I had no idea what I was walking into. It turns out to be like a really cool international collection of People Who Stutter from around the world. And then at the tail end of it, who pops on none other than all rise, John Harrison enters the room and it was just a really cool thing.
Uri Schneider: To have a legend just slip into otherwise a meeting that was coordinated by a bunch of people who just decided this would be a good thing to do to bring people together. So shout out to Ari, shout out to everybody there and shout out to John Harrison.
Annie Bradberry: Oh, so the book that it really did change my life.
Annie Bradberry: And it's called when you, it's What To Say When You Talk To Yourself by Sha- is S-H-A-D Helmstetter, PhD. It's on Amazon and I give it away a lot. That's why I thought I had a copy because I usually keep it, give it, and it just. It's just, it's that whole thing The thing. about going back to the beginning, getting out of our own way.
Annie Bradberry: It's what I'm thinking. It's what it's, going back to that first, I think situation was in the situation and not even speaking yet and starting to think about what could happen or what I think is going to happen or, and projecting what I think is going to happen. It's a full-time job.
Annie Bradberry: And so this book helped me and I still, today will ca-, will catch myself. Hey, you got to stop that. And I think that's really important. I think.
Annie Bradberry: There's all different kinds of severity. I am a believer that severity isn't measured. I'm getting more stuffies. I'm getting more difficult. It's interesting. Isn't it fascinating. See, it's fascinating to me instead of getting oh, it's gonna be a crappy day of talking. It's this is fascinating.
Annie Bradberry: Like what our scientists typically look at my nose right now to why is it affecting here? But So it's I lost what I was, but it's just try to stay present. That's what John also taught me. He was staying present and not allowing all this stuff to come in and It's crucial. And when I was saying about, I don't judge stuttering on the amount of fluency, because I know many covert people whose lives are just, oh my goodness gracious.
Annie Bradberry: They're leading double lives. It's a full-time job on its own. I really think that's also for the clinician is you can't measure it by this. Is there so much more going on?
Un-stuffing our heads and taking baby steps
Uri Schneider: I think I would just bring us home and offer you any parting words with saying, following, getting out of our own way.
Uri Schneider: What I'm hearing from you is getting out of our own heads and thoughts and the stories they're spinning about what other people will think, what they are thinking, what they will tolerate, what they won't tolerate. And then I love it because it really goes with everything. You've been talking about this little cold, you got a cold, it's not pleasant.
Uri Schneider: It's making you feel like your voice doesn't sound the way you wish. It's also for whatever reason, correlating with some more stuttering, but you got the cold, cause you spent time with your grandkids this week and you wouldn't trade it to have skipped the cold. So you take the good, you take the bad and there you have, very precious life.
Uri Schneider: So just to take it all together, I think I'm getting out of your own way, the same way your nose getting stuffy is leading to more struggle or you're noticing more stuttering. I don't want to use the word struggle, but you're noticing the stuttering goes up when your nose is stuffy. I think it ties in nicely with.
Uri Schneider: Basically keeping your head clear, keeping your head and your thoughts, clear getting out of your own way. Don't let yourself get stuffed up. A lot of us, People Who Stutter, we stuff up our heads with our own stuff, and we can do a little spring cleaning. However, we accomplish that, whether it's mindful meditation, whether it's some retreat, some experience, some book, some mentors, some guide.
Uri Schneider: But I think getting out of your own way, maybe if I, what I'm feeling is it's getting out of my own head un-stuffing my head, because if I stuff up my head, it's not going to keep me better off. It's just going to get in my own way.
Annie Bradberry: Yeah. No, you're it's true. It's true. It's just, it's so it's really simple when you look at it, when you say it that way.
Annie Bradberry: But we it's, I have to go back if I'm going to end with something that's the baby steps, because. It's all about the kindness and like today for me. And this last, since Monday I been trying to figure, I can't get out of that. What I went through the of a voluntary stuttering, I'm not completely out of it.
Annie Bradberry: And I've never experienced that before. So baby steps being kind to yourself when you release the anger. Release the frustration release disappointment that we have when we don't give ourselves our voice
Annie Bradberry: that gets in our way it's so that though, just that disappointment, those things that we that's even this hate to say the word worse, it's more impactful than the actual stuttering.
Uri Schneider: Tougher more challenging.
Annie Bradberry: Yeah. Yeah. So I say, we, it's here I am 63. And I'm still dealing with the waxing and the waning of the stuttering cycle, I still am and it's going to happen the rest of my life.
Annie Bradberry: And the difference is now is when I got out of my own way. Is that it's okay. It's just simply okay. It doesn't have to, be anything more, I'm getting harder. It's harder for me to talk right now. And it doesn't have to be anything more than that. It's just this moment in time. I always tell people where they say, oh, I'm going to cycle.
Annie Bradberry: I go, it's just a moment in time. It doesn't, it doesn't define who we are.
Uri Schneider: There you go.
Annie Bradberry: That's it doesn't define who we are. Yeah.
Closing remarks
Uri Schneider: I just wanted to not miss the opportunity. We said this was going to be a birthday episode. So I'm going to, I'm just going to drop one reference for you can get more information at Schneiderspeech.com/tsa.
Uri Schneider: If you're a Person Who Stutters or you're a speech language pathologist in particular for speech, language pathologists, an awesome opportunity to sign up for cohort three, to join this community and the training there'll be also CMHs and maybe more. So great opportunity there and whoever you are, you can sign up for these free.
Uri Schneider: mini course to hear more about the Transcending Stuttering framework, but now for the birthday song birthday. Oh, absolutely. Marilyn Monroe style.
Annie Bradberry: I'm sitting back for this
Uri Schneider: Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, Mrs. Executive director, happy birthday to you. And many more. Listen, the perspective, the wisdom, the honesty, and the insights are timeless and also priceless.
Uri Schneider: So thank you for sharing so openly and taking the time Annie.
Uri Schneider: Many thanks.
Annie Bradberry: Thank you for this opportunity. It's a true honor. I appreciate it.
Uri Schneider: If you've enjoyed it and you think Annie's words and voice are worth sharing, please do and certainly feel free to direct message any or, message us, let us know if there were any specific quotes or takeaways that you would like to see featured in, future shares.
Uri Schneider: And we look forward to seeing you next week. Next week, we'll be having Steven Greene from Ireland, talking about the journey acceptance and beyond. So stay tuned next week on Thursday and on Wednesday 11:00 AM. We're always on Clubhouse. And we look forward to seeing some of you in Austin, Texas at the National Stuttering Association conference July 7th, that week, whatever it is, Wednesday, Thursday, go to westutter.org, check out the details and Friends For Young People Who Stutter their conference the following week.
Uri Schneider: And with that wish everybody an amazing day.