#63 The Real Irishman with Stephen Greene
“You can still be a very good communicator...you can still hold a room as a person who stutters.”
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
BIO:
A person who stutters from Dublin Ireland, Social care worker with 20 years of experience working in the area of Intellectual Disabilities. He is the former Chairman of the Irish Stammering Association and support group facilitator. Stephen is married with one daughter and plays the Keyboard in a band.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00-01:28 -Opening remarks
01:28-16:35 -Introducing Stephen Greene and his journey
16:35-26:11 -The different options we can provide PWS to give them peace
26:11-34:19 -A deeper look into Stephen's teenage stage with stuttering
34:19-39:48 -Stephen's shift from avoidance to involvement in the stuttering community
39:48-45:20 -Stephen explains that a stutter doesn't "hold you back"
45:20-1:00:57 -Overcoming the negative that comes with stuttering
1:00:57-1:01:25 -Closing remarks
RESOURCE LIST
Stephen’s podcast with Stuttering Mind
MORE QUOTES
“I think that's very important for a person to be able, especially a person maybe who, who has gone through maybe a challenge of stuttering to be able to show their true self and just try and get away from the holding back, maybe the avoidance behaviors that we would have done in the past.” - Stephen Greene
“I met other people who stutter I found that peer support we talked about. It's just with meeting other adults who stuttered sharing our experiences, it was such valuable thing for me. So that was the gateway for me to look into where I was going on my stuttering journey.” -Stephen Greene
“What used to hold me about my stuttering was everything I did to try not to stutter. So every thing I did to try and hold back my stuttering the avoidance behaviors to try not to be open about my stuttering that is what hurt me, not the actual stuttering on their words.” - Stephen Greene
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: Good morning here we are back for another great opportunity to learn, to listen, to grow. I'm Uri Schneider your host here at Transcending Stuttering and today with the real Irishman, Stephen Green and that's Stephen with a P H I made that mistake, once, somewhere across the way.
Uri Schneider: I've got many friends, Steven Stephan Steve Steph in America. We're going through the playoffs right now in basketball. And of course there's Steph Curry, but don't forget about Seth Curry. Now with all due respect, their dad, Dell Curry is an announcer and a former NBA player. What were they thinking?
Uri Schneider: Naming two brothers, Steph and Seth, even if the audience and the fans get it right? Like you're just, I think people should try to start kids' names with different, completely different sounding things. Getting it too close is just a bad idea. It's great to have you Mr. Green. And I'm glad that like if it was St Patty's day, it would be really good to be with that.
Uri Schneider: We like the complete effect, but he's a red bearded Irishman, but there's much more to it as much more to it at first glance. I was intimidated, man, to man. He's got the, he's got the full-on thick beard. He's got the tattoo. He's got the hair just so he's gone back to the gym to pump iron. And let me tell you the other side of this guy, his bio is so humble.
Introducing Stephen Greene
Uri Schneider: He's a person who stutters from Dublin Ireland. He's a social care worker, 20 years of experience working in the area of intellectual disabilities. He's the former chairman of the Irish Stammering Association and a support group facilitator. He's also married with one daughter and he plays keyboard in a band.
Uri Schneider: He has dogs. Enjoys getting outdoors. And we connected recently, he re-emerged in the online space of the stuttering community and we connected over some things we were both concerned about. And then we discovered we had things we were excited about and I just love his positivity. I love his strength.
Uri Schneider: I love his generosity. It's an honor and a privilege to jump across the pond and have Stephen Green joining us today. Okay.
Stephen Greene: Thank you for the introduction Uri. It was very good. Yeah, very them add to the introduction in there, just to say that thanks for the opportunity to just come online. Let's just talk about still stuttering and the issues, maybe my own journey where I'm at now as well.
Uri Schneider: I noticed that when you posted this up, one of our mutual friends in the UK rom a stuttering mind, he said, oh, that's great, man. And why don't you do your own podcast? And I would just second that, I think you are a man with perspective and wisdom and a lot of people enjoy listening.
Uri Schneider: So I hope this is the first of many, either that we support you and host you and just give you the mic or consider it, I think it's a great vehicle and you have a lot of wisdom to share. So I'm looking forward to this meandering conversation that will certainly leave us wiser and more in touch and more understanding I'll share a lead-in story.
Uri Schneider: Oh, you know what, let's kick it off. Like we always do. What's one thing that you'd like people to know that wasn't in the bio. One thing about you that you feel proud of, or is an important piece of you that you'd wish to share with you.
Stephen Greene: Okay. One thing was, it's my curiosity for people or just, I just love meeting people gotten to know like different cultures.
Stephen Greene: Just people that I haven't met previously, maybe different cultures that I wouldn't have had that they would've known more about. Just getting to know people and just the interaction with them. Cause I personally, I love to talk to people and I love to find out trust at different people and stories of the life and maybe some similar, same morality, allergies stand out.
Stephen Greene: We have as people that as well. And even though we are probably from different parts of the world help people and we associate on so many levels. Like whether it be family, whether it be different interests that we have, like self. Yeah. So that's maybe something that I didn't have in Dubai also.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. You left out that you traveled the world and have worked and spent extended periods of time. And I think that's such a complimentary thing to being, living a fuller life. You can stay local and live close to where you grew up. And have a very wonderful life, not necessarily live in the epicenter of culture and action and business, but getting out of your Hamlet and getting to know other cultures and the beauty that exists outside of what's familiar.
Uri Schneider: And most importantly, how much we have in common, how much overlap there is to the human experience, no matter what language, creed, color, religion, whatever that's. So it says a lot about you.
Stephen Greene: What also, and cause it was 2018 when myself and my wife decided to take you off work because like we've been walking in services for a long time.
Stephen Greene: And the two of us said, look, we'd go to just take a step outside of work now and off and do a bit of traveling and just see some of the worlds then as well. And I really like even that traveling experience that really reinforced. There would be a leaf that I have that people are innately goo d.
Stephen Greene: That was a goodness just to people. And that traveling just really showed me that goodness that I can say. So
Uri Schneider: I'm coming up with all kinds of warm feelings, but I also want to give a shout out to my favorite other Irish friends. Michael O'Shea gave me one of my favorites signed books. Why I call my sister Harry an amazing book.
Uri Schneider: Deep, good friends like Ryan and others. And of course, one of my favorites, I know that you told me when we misspelled your name every mother wants to see their son's name spelled, right? So it made me think of my other favorite Irish woman. I'd be careful here. My other favorite Irish woman is a Joe Biden's mom, he describes his mom as a short Irish Catholic woman. And there's an amazing story of what she did when a nun teacher mocked his stuttering in class. And if you want to see that you can go online, you can search for AIS Joe Biden, gala speech. It's also on a blog post that we put together.
Uri Schneider: We put that video in there. It's a two, you got to watch two videos to catch the whole story. But if you go to our website, Schneider speech.com, you go to the blog page and search for stuttering paradox, Biden. We've got those videos there. It's an amazing story. So I picture your mom as that strong feisty image that I have, which might be right or might be wrong, but at least she's going to be feisty about the spelling of your name.
Uri Schneider: So glad we got that, right?
Stephen Greene: Yeah, no, I can definitely say that my. My mother is actually one of our favorite sayings that she has for me is especially when I'm in conversation with her, she will always turn around and say, oops, seriously, someone would seriously. So if we're talking about still fans, I am trying to make a point.
Stephen Greene: She be like, eh, put same as the song. So it yet she is a very strong Irish woman anyways.
Uri Schneider: That would be a great segue into perhaps the first thing, which was the most recent thing we chatted about. Being strong, right? She's strong. You look strong, you're a man's man. I said how some might look at you and be intimidated.
Uri Schneider: So I was interested if you want to share a little bit about your experience as a man's man and Irish and whatever that means, culturally and how that's been a part of your journey. And then also, what are some of the. Some of the misnomers misgivings that people have in their minds of either the identity, they carry themselves.
Uri Schneider: They don't allow themselves to follow their real identity because they feel they have to live through this shadow identity of what they think they should be or places where they bump into this, where people have cast them as such and such and such. People don't do that. But you want to do that.
Uri Schneider: So maybe you could share on that. I think that's a really interesting thing for a lot of guys out there who might, Hey, therapy's not for me or, Hey, I shouldn't be so tough on myself because a man would just toughen up or that's what I see other men do on TV or something. I dunno.
Stephen Greene: Oh yeah, totally.
Stephen Greene: And what I would say is it's never to judge a book by its cover as well, because Okay, maybe you might look at me on the, see this club now. I don't particularly see myself as So I've been working with people are intellectual disabilities for 20 odd years. And it's a passion that I still have even after working for all of that time and doing that work, it's all about being able to put yourself in the position of the person that you're working with them.
Stephen Greene: So how would you want to be treated if you had somebody that was looking after you? So it's always put yourself in the role of the other person. And I think my stuttering has really helped me in that regard too. It's really to empathize, to just really empathize where maybe struggles that different people have them.
Stephen Greene: So whether it be somebody copying somebody that's on there or the autistic spectrum, and they are finding it very hard to communicate their own needs and then people maybe, and necessary listening to either. As a person who stutters, I identify where that struggle to communicate and to fit into, so to fit into a fluent world where it was.
Stephen Greene: I understand somebody that would be on the spectrum is trying to fit into this other world then. And just the difficulty that is around that so I think definitely. Bringing it back to my stuttering that has really helped me in many aspects of my life also.. I suppose bringing it back to your question about just being a man living and go through the different stages of life as well.
Stephen Greene: The most important thing is to be able to show your true authentic self so it's a normal mode to be comfortable in your own skin is very important because I think if you're comfortable in your own skin, you can, you will give off this air of, and I don't think it's necessarily confidence for it.
Stephen Greene: Air that you're okay.with yourself, and I think people feed off that then also, so I think that's very important for a person to be able, especially a person maybe who, who has gone through maybe a challenge of stuttering to be able to show their true self and just try and get away from the holding back, maybe the avoidance behaviors that we would have done in the past.
Stephen Greene: So I think it's all about just the whole, the backend moving forward and being able to show your true self. So if you understand what I'm getting at there
Uri Schneider: totally like in America, there's a phrase, showing your true colors. So I feel like your true colors or the redness of your beard, but yeah, letting you're letting your true self out, letting you know, letting it be and.
Uri Schneider: Love it. Yeah.
Stephen Greene: And I'll, I suppose it's just taken into account maybe the different pressures that people have to the different stages of their life. So maybe teenagers is that you're trying to fit in. So we are at trying to fit in with a group or you're trying to fit in with just the same group of people.
Stephen Greene: So the last thing that maybe you want to do is he'll to openly show, show your stuttering. So it's taken into account different stages and where people are at at them stages. And it's just trying to find out like what works best for them anyway.
Uri Schneider: So important. And I think that's a great little hat tip to stages of change.
Uri Schneider: We discussed a lot with Dr. Naomi Rogers in an earlier episode, and there's so much there.
Stephen's journey
Uri Schneider: Speaking of that, do you want to take us for, I know you, you shared it as one of the bullet points. We might touch on a little journey of your growing up and your own relationship with yourself, with your stutter and how it was dealt with and how that's evolved over time in different stages of your journey.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. Basically I would have gone through therapy three different stages of my life. So the first stage would have been when I was about five or six years old, and I have very little memory of that therapy. And the only memory that really stood out in my mind was Going to the therapists
Stephen Greene: and my mother had to stay outside while I went into see the therapists or, that was just a memory that really stood out. And in my mind, just in relations, that forced experience of speech therapy.
Stephen Greene: How old were you?
Stephen Greene: I was about five or six years old. So this would have been, it would've been, I think it would've been about 19 78, 79 probably would have been the year anyways.
Stephen Greene: So
Uri Schneider: yeah. And would you have preferred she be in the room or what did that feel like as a kid? That's an interesting one. A lot of times, a lot of people's experiences until today, the kid goes in, the parent does the drop-off either they sit in the waiting room or they go do errands, in hindsight was that.
Uri Schneider: Was that more easy to be in there alone? Or was it something you would have wished it was like a surprise to you? Just curious.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. Just speaking from my own age experience, our team, I probably would allow to have a, my mother in there think, eh, it's just about the separation there. And I think also, so everything that has happened in the therapists office, so there was nothing that really happened back in the house.
Stephen Greene: So it wasn't really like a roll- over of that therapy, I think, which is very important that I, what I think so that you can have a when it comes to therapy then because a lot of the times when the child is at home and so on, so maybe that's been at parents maybe should be giving them light direction then as well.
Stephen Greene: Anyway,
Uri Schneider: My father always says, the five-year-old child who stutters did not do their research, make the phone call and schedule the appointment. They certainly it's their stutter. And they deserve to be treated with the dignity and humanity, even as a young person. But the mistake of not seeing the parent as such an important stakeholder and not treating them as such, meaning, nothing critical here, just a tip or thought of forward thinking.
Uri Schneider: The parent is also holding a bit of the stutter and hoping and wondering how to help the young person in the best way possible. Not to do anything that could be harmful. And on the other hand, they don't want to sit by idly by and miss the opportunity to do something that could be supportive. And so the importance of engaging parents and certainly they didn't reach out to sit in the waiting room and not be engaged.
Uri Schneider: Not that's what happened there. Yeah, as a best practice, finding ways to engage the whole family is so important.
The different options we can provide PWS to give them peace
Uri Schneider: I'll share one story, it'll make, bring you into your junior high years. Had a call earlier this week junior high girl, very confident, and mom is there and it's on zoom.
Uri Schneider: And the girl says I really found it really hard this week, like never before reading. So then they went on and said we start with a highlight this time. They started with a problem, but then shifted into the highlight. And she knows that the focus first on the wins and also on the challenges.
Uri Schneider: So the challenge was at the wins were that in other situations speaking more freely and feeling more agency and both in taking risks and talking and speaking up more and also feeling that she had a handle on stuttering and being able to get her words out in a way that felt like a good balance. She could do something about it.
Uri Schneider: It was less effortful, less distracting still stuttering, but feeling really good about that. But reading was really, so the episode that she shares is that she's in the car with her mom's driving rightfully so it gets a text message says, can you read me the text? She's holding the cell phone and it's quiet because she's having a block.
Uri Schneider: And mom says, and then child says oh, it's because I stutter. And I always stuttered when I read because that's what's happening this week. So then they were going to move on with the situation, but mom and child were there and I said I wonder what you would have liked to hear. And child daughter says, I don't know.
Uri Schneider: I said let's just brainstorm. If we could go back to that moment. And we started to throw out some ideas. Some mom said maybe it's awkward and you just want me to ignore it. Maybe that would be the best thing. Just ignore it. It would be more awkward to even talk about it. Just let it go.
Uri Schneider: Another option would be, come on. You can do it. Use the techniques, use those tips and tricks. And child says, no, I wouldn't want them to ignore it. Oh, what about the, I said you think there's a third way? No, it's just those two. And they both stink oh, there's always a third way. Come on.
Uri Schneider: And so I've put out there. I said I don't know something crazy. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't realize it was hard to do that. I can read it for myself when we get to the next place to stop. Child's yes, that and to the parent that was so foreign to just be able to acknowledge and hold.
Uri Schneider: And the parent starts running into school and I said, We're just talking about that as one context and in different places, the child may choose differently, but this is one place where we could just go back and play the tape again and give agency to the young person, help the parent hear different options because the parent doesn't want to make it awkward.
Uri Schneider: They want to help the child that's coming from a loving place, but the child is saying, neither of those are desirable. This is what I want. The third one, which takes a lot for parents. I just want to emphasize as a parent and you're a parent, it's hard to just hold a kid. Who's bleeding. It's hard to just comfort them and not run to get the Bacitracin and that this, and to call the doctor and go to the hospital just to be extra careful.
Uri Schneider: But that creates panic and worry and asked for the child. We mean the best. It's much harder to say, okay, right now we need to get a tourniquet if necessary. We need to clean the wound if necessary, but then just hold and be in that place. So I'm just sharing that as a segue into, I wonder what junior high and high school was like for you, but I think that's a valuable story.
Stephen Greene: Yeah, no, definitely. I can definitely see the value there. It's just being able for the peril down face avoid or really anyway. My own experience skill was pretty good. I had really good mates. I never really, I was never really bullied on, I need anything structural and skill or I did reading was a difficulty for me and I used to have teachers that would skip me because I knew that I struggled with my speech and I felt relief at the time or they were short-lived because.
Stephen Greene: It it would add to the guilty would add to the shame that I felt maybe after that I had this one teacher, I think I was 16 at the time and had this one teacher that always kept asking me just to read. And he said it to me. Then he said, look, Steven, I will continue to ask you to read because I, don't want to treat you any different than any of the other students here.
Stephen Greene: I can see you're having difficulty with your speech or are you? I hope that you don't mind if I continue to ask you those to read. And I said, so even though if the reading was difficulty, I was blocking was getting the repetitions and I was struggling for air at times. I was happy that I did it like, I was happy that I wasn't passed over.
Stephen Greene: And this same teacher actually had, he had a friend that worked as a speech language therapist in Trinity college and he was able to get me to be seen by one of the therapists there. He got into it with my mother and he asked, would it be okay if he could arrange some therapy options for myself though?
Stephen Greene: I went as a teenager. Now looking back on it now, I don't think no more. No, I don't think all is quite, was ready for it. Anyway, it just, wasn't just was not the right time in my life for me. Also maybe just what I was doing as well. Just, it didn't really totally sit totally righteous with me because we want to be in down like fluency shaping.
Stephen Greene: And so we would have done their like slowed speech and just having I remember the therapist used to give me the, their practice tapes for their slowed speech and she said, they'll even make sure that your practice alone would, I would leave them. I believe the tapes in the Bible. He wouldn't be there.
Stephen Greene: My notepad there. We told him about the clinic.
Stephen Greene: the following, like the following session anyways. But looking back on it now, it just wasn't maybe at the right time for me to do therapy, then. But it was funny cause I remember the first ever session that I went to in Trinity college was so Trinity college is in the middle of Dublin city.
Stephen Greene: Really it was only really at busy you road. And I had now I just ha I could go walk, open the door and walk in. So we went up to open the door and the door was locked. Next thing I saw this Intercom on the side of the door and the most of the talk to me about like 10, 15 minutes of walking up and down the street, building myself up to press this button on the Intercom.
Stephen Greene: So I press the button on the Intercom probably to make a sound block down the fourth syllable. I could hear the traffic to see behind me the process and everything like flying past. Oh, that failed stuttering to block for ages. it was obviously a short period of time or yeah. And that was just to get into the building.
Stephen Greene: Anyways.
Uri Schneider: You'd think they'd have a little bit more empathy you got people with communication challenges using an Intercom as the gateway is a bit harsh ramps of access. You wouldn't put like a steep staircase in a place where people have challenges of mobility. The whole idea is creating ramps of access.
Uri Schneider: I'm glad that we are in an age where you can use a finger to identify yourself or some other, text message, but that's rough showing up for your day of speech therapy and you've got to use an Intercom from a loud street. Yeah.
Stephen Greene: And when I got in, I met this lady. I think she was the head of the department that I actually thought
Stephen Greene: she was quite scary. I just met this lady and she had this mad head. Like you could tell that she was a real academic,
Stephen Greene: you
Uri Schneider: can't judge a book by its cover.
Stephen Greene: Oh, totally. Yeah. Never judge a book by its cover,
Uri Schneider: but you can't not.
Uri Schneider: It's just human.
Stephen Greene: That was the first impression now I was making in my brain anyway. So I think I met with whole force and was praying. Please don't be my therapist. But then she put me with a SLT student that I had was working with to say she was really nice she was more pleasing in the, on the eye .
Stephen Greene: So yeah, I was happy enough to be going to my therapy sessions there anyways. So
Uri Schneider: it's escaping the Intercom and moving from the intensive academic types of the more pleasant looking students. What was the nature? What do you remember as some, some connections there or something that felt fitting or that didn't.
A deeper look into Stephen's teenage stage with stuttering
Uri Schneider: So we
Uri Schneider: talked about, I'm just interested how earlier on the tapes just stayed in the bag. They never got out of the bag, the practice tapes that you were expected to do. So you'd come back to therapy and you hadn't touched that in this engagement. How old are you now? This is 16,
Stephen Greene: 15.
Uri Schneider: Different age, different stage different stuff.
Uri Schneider: So yeah,
Stephen Greene: basically the main two different parts were, so we would have had individual sessions and then we would have broken into a group and from different people who stuttered then. So I am, what I remember from the individual sessions was really working on slowed speech on just on the on the . mechanics of speech then the group, I think I don't really remember touching on any of the E emotional side of the stuttering.
Stephen Greene: how we felt I think that might have been being this school sport, it did really stay in my memory anyway for him. So I don't know whether there was much of a discussion about how we felt about just to, rather than just working on speech. So it opinions anyway. So yeah, so that's my memory from when I was a teenager.
Stephen Greene: So
Uri Schneider: was that helpful? Did you, do you look back at that as fitting or was it it wasn't like it wasn't as, as fitting for you given your age and what you were looking for?
Stephen Greene: Yeah. I don't think it was as fitting because maybe I wasn't ready to delve into how I felt about stuttering at that time stage. Even if a, was this ghost in a small I wasn't.
Stephen Greene: And I wasn't ready to put the effort in to do the fluency shaping and still feel because that was, I want to take them like a lot of time and a lot of practice, and I just felt it wasn't right for me or .
Uri Schneider: Can we hang on this for a second? Because I think this is a paradox and the irony, can we hang on the stage?
Uri Schneider: Is that a face? And then I'm going to let you take it where you wish. So you're 15, 16 years old and here you are today with all the perspectives and everything, and we'll get to that. And we'll talk about that. You have a very you do have a positive attitude towards the value in place of professional speech therapy.
Uri Schneider: W we'll touch on that. I think you also certainly have dedicated yourself and have benefited from the world of self. And the world of support that exists outside of the professional space, but just people who stutter, helping people who stutter and offering community and space that you're not alone.
Uri Schneider: So you also, and you also appreciate, I think put words in your mouth, the space to explore the thoughts and the feelings and the importance of that in a stuttering journey, as well as strategies. It's not to say that strategies don't have a place in the journey, but there's room. Am I right?
Uri Schneider: If you can go. So I think it's so interesting. Am I right?
Stephen Greene: Yeah, no, totally.
Uri Schneider: Are there, this is where my question lead up and then I'll pass it. So here you are 15, 16 years old. They're doing the mechanical stuff. It's not that it wasn't something you necessarily think was good, but it wasn't you at 15, 16, you already do that kind of work.
Uri Schneider: Now on the other hand, you're saying like, even if they had done a lot of the like cognitive emotional. I don't think I really wanted to talk about feelings and stuff like that either. So I'm thinking with teenagers, there's this conundrum. They might not want to do the hard work of the mechanical practice and behavioral shifts and what that entails they need.
Uri Schneider: And they might want that. They say they want that, but might not be ready to do the work. They definitely have thoughts and feelings, but they might not be ready to unpack that. And there can be a way to make it easier or harder to do that. But some just don't want to talk about it. So thinking back, what would you have wanted?
Uri Schneider: What were you ready for? What would have been the ideal thing to meet Steven at 16? Coming in that room, what would you have wished for?
Stephen Greene: I think if I had met maybe a combination of, if I had met somebody older. who stutters. And that may be has a positive of outview view on stuttering . And maybe that is like stuttering openly in front of me without much struggle in combination, with a a therapist and that is able to show me the likes of Palmer SL T's point of view, and being able to have that therapeutic approach.
Stephen Greene: Oh yeah. I think that would have benefited me just being able to say, okay, look, I can see this chap now. And he's a few years old on me even though he's still stuttering, he's stuttering in a different way to the fact that I'm still stuttering. And I must seen yeah, like struggle or, oh, you don't see the avoidance that he is doing.
Stephen Greene: So maybe. Maybe there's a chance for me to get the last stage. So yeah, so maybe it's a combination, so
Uri Schneider: I love it. And I just hope, and I want to bless you and ask anyone that's listening, use this, recording this video for that team that you might be meeting or that team, you might notice that they could meet Steven Green as such a person, as such an example of someone a little bit further on in the years.
Uri Schneider: And I'm sure Steve would be welcomed, would welcome people, contacting him to be a mentor or to zoom into a meeting with a young person who stutters. But I think that's a beautiful recommendation statement. One that I, one that I support and practice, but I think it's important because out of the box it's not one or the other, it's like this fusion of role models and mentors people that you would look up to who are stuttering openly and living fully.
Uri Schneider: And can give a feeling of confidence and of hope and of mentorship from standing in your shoes and getting it, and then a professional who also needs to get it, but might be able to contribute something therapeutic as well. I think it's beautiful.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. Yeah. Like you're it's about colaboration really, it's a colaboration many different points.
Stephen Greene: So you have your speech and language therapists is you have their peers supports. So the peer support might be might be kids who still around the same age, then they can feed off that energy from each other. And Emily P from a older up here and here at group that does well. So it's just looking at the right combination or it really goes back to.
Stephen Greene: So it goes back down to the individuals that seek and did therapy. So a, so you may have someone that walks across somebody and then that's not necessarily the right path for somebody else. So I think the terror that families and everyone, all of the stakeholders really need to, would he individual any of the decisions that are being made?
Stephen Greene: When it comes to therapy when it comes to talking about stuttering , is that the individual really. So it's a person centered approach really to to dealing with,
Uri Schneider: It's funny, I'm just glancing at the comments. You've got your fan club. I don't see your mom commenting yet. If she's here, I'm looking for the comments.
Uri Schneider: I don't think she's on page. But but Anita is here from Sweden and Trudy from the UK. And I see Trudy's question was in line with what I asked you about, what would your five-year-old self, what was your experience in that space and Anita saying without mentors and role models, like you just described Steven, she wouldn't be where she is today.
Stephen's shift from avoidance to involvement in the stuttering community
Uri Schneider: The importance of mentorship for young people, and especially in the work that you do, this and your volunteer work, I don't want I don't want to finish this without you getting a chance to talk about the Irish stammering association and your work there. So please take it at any pace that you want to, but the mic is yours.
Uri Schneider: I just want to get to your bullet points. Cool.
Stephen Greene: Yeah, maybe because I think an important part of my journey is maybe going from a person who was avoiding stuttering, at all odds, trying to avoid stuttering too, Attending a support' group and looking into your therapy options found a therapy program and running this
Stephen Greene: support report group after the therapy program got involved with the ISA and became the chair of the ISA then. So it's maybe that journey you'll read and that I went on. And so I think it just rolls into maybe the tour time that I went for. So I would have been I think it was 29 to 40 or some, or maybe taught you all use old.
Stephen Greene: And I had staff that handle the Dublin. Or a port group about five or six months, Correa two going on. And going to the
Stephen Greene: I met other people who stutter I found that peer support we talked about. It's just with meeting all other adults who stuttered sharing our experiences, it was such valuable thing for me. So that was the gateway for me to look into where I was going on my stuttering journey. So I was attending the support group program for over six months demo, head available therapy program.
Stephen Greene: It was called DAS , which stood for Dublin adults stuttering, which was run by a, it was run by the health board. So just at the national health service of Ireland and it was a seven day . Therapy course. And that was known by three, speech and language therapists had their recognized qualification in stuttering.
Stephen Greene: And I have to say that this course just blew my mind anyway, like it does now. Number one, the fact it was residential. So it was a seven day who residential course in a hotel, just on the outskirts of Dublin. And so we just felt that we were in this big speech bubble. There was just, everything was all about stuttering .
Stephen Greene: And so I think there was seven or eight people that were on the course and the three, speech and language therapists. I suppose the background to the course, it was all about and being open about your stuttering and non avoidance approach so it was based on really based on the principle of Dr.
Stephen Greene: Joseph sheen. Charles Van Riper,
Uri Schneider: just a quick plug, not for anyone, but Steven Green, if you want us to beautiful excerpts from van riper and Sheehan, just follow Stephen Green on social. He posts beautiful excerpts from his favorite teachers.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. Oh yeah. Sheen and Van Riper are my stuttering, gods book there. And the, I remember even the first night on the course we're all sitting around as a group, and seeing different faces and so many different personalities.
Stephen Greene: People were, oh, about Stuttering. And even over the seven days to scan, to know these people and we were all moving at different stages of their process off the therapy people. They had all your foundation, color group and group work was so valuable. It was just an essential part of the therapy as valid.
Stephen Greene: So as though we would have gone we actually got to watch videos in the evening time. So we watched the Van Riper therapy in action, a video where. Jeff, I think wasn't it. Jeff. And I can think for a second , but it was to van riper doing his thing and seeing the passion of demand, like a passion that he had for helping, for just wanting to help this guide here, just to be a piece to square his stuttering to be able to be open about the stuttering and then so watching the van Riper videos and then so like we will, we would watch some of the video and we'd have a talk as a group and just talk about how we felt about the vigils and it was the same for the Sheen stuff then.
Stephen Greene: And I have to say that the Sheeen stuff. Just blew my mind and in totally because Sheen was talking about.
Stephen explains that a stutter doesn't "hold you"
Stephen Greene: Like your stuttering doesn't hold you and your fluency doesn't do you any good? So I, this guy was telling me that, like my stuttering doesn't hold me and that my fluency won't do me any good.
Stephen Greene: That was like, that just blew my mind at the time.
Uri Schneider: Can you unpack that? Because I know you shared that and not everybody understood. It's not, there's a lot there in those few words, but if maybe you could share what that means to you, because I know what it means to me. I think I know what it means to you, but I don't know if everybody connects the dots that you're intending.
Uri Schneider: So if you could share a little bit, that could be very powerful. And also just for context, Dr. Joseph Sheahan and Charles van riper are two of the pillars of the giants of the early phases of stuttering therapy. And the amazing thing about that. Era and the foundations of the professional interests and dedication and devotion to helping people who stutter was started by and led by mostly men who stutter, which is amazing when you think about it and continue to stutter into their adult life and had different phases and iterations of their writing and of their work and of their storytelling.
Uri Schneider: But they are definitely the people who blazed the path for all of us. But it is interesting. We think only recently of the idea of therapists who are also people who stutter, it's important to remember that the foundations of the entire profession are built on the shoulders of a lot of people who stutter overwhelmingly.
Uri Schneider: Yeah,
Stephen Greene: so basically you're stuttering doesn't hold you. What that means to me is that even just thinking back, like what used to hold me about my stuttering was everything I did to try not to stutter. So every thing I did to try and hold back my stuttering the avoidance behaviors to try not to be open about my stuttering that is what hurt me, not the actual stuttering on their words.
Stephen Greene: That is okay now so that's fine. So that's what it means because I think a lot of people maybe pick it up that stuttering is just maybe all of the struggle that I haven't, and so on. Whereas a lot of that struggle is everything we are trying to just not to stutter. I think that's what Sheen means by that.
Stephen Greene: stuttering doesn't hold you it's everything you do to try not to stutter. And your feelings on the older side. So yeah, fluency doesn't do you any good so what, he means is that if you're in a false state of fluency, so you're, so you are trying to be fluent at all costs. So we are maybe using all your tricks, your substitute words, your avoiding words.
Stephen Greene: And you're trying to nail this fluency and that is no good for you as a person who stutters because cause it's a false sense of fluent, and it's also, if you have the mindset I want to be fluent at all costs like where is your true, authentic self just being in shown then So if you try to be fluent at all costs, what happens when you do stutter so?
Stephen Greene: So what happens at that moment when you get a block? So those, everything in the fall at that stage, whereas if you can see your fluency I think I said, I recently, then I was saying that my stuttering and my fluency are just part of the way I communicate now. So one of them doesn't have a step up.
Stephen Greene: I see them as just parts of how I communicate. It's part of the overall picture of how I communicate. Or if I was striving to be fluent the whole time, that would have a impact on myself as a person who stutters so . So I think that's what Sheen means by your fluency doesn't do you any good if I explain the right,
Uri Schneider: If I was my own listener, I would put that one in the comments as the most inspiring noteworthy takeaway right there, Stephen, that was worth our entire friendship, the last three minutes.
Uri Schneider: So I encourage anyone that is listening. Please add, because Steven is just a highlight reel, not to mention I'll add one other thing. Cause even on. I'll just say, I love listening to you. You can talk all day and I would listen attentively and the stuttering is open in there. And so is the Irish accent and it's a beautiful blended scotch.
Uri Schneider: And I know it would be an Irish whiskey but it's a blended scotch. And the point is that in the end of the day, the words, the message, the connection and the delivery all become something greater than any one of the parts. And so as a listener to share
Stephen Greene: that, yeah we Irish we do love to talk over years,
Uri Schneider: Irish and Jews. We got a lot in common. You can talk all you 100%. Just don't answer questions with questions. Cause then you'll really be Jewish. Yeah.
Overcoming the negative that comes with stuttering
Stephen Greene: I just had to, it's just another quote of Sheen that I just want to throw out just the people because it's is just beautiful. It's like you don't have a choice as to whether you stutter what you do have a choice as to how you stutter. And I think that's like that big, because if you ask, turn into Arnold folds, the chance of you stuttering for the rest of your life is pretty high anyway. So you don't really have a choice as to whether that you used or would you have a choice
Stephen Greene: or you think that's very important for people to just try and get the minds? And to be able to say, okay, because there's some, cause people do feel helpless that, oh, you're never going to, I am never going to get rid of this stutter I'm like, what am I going to do? So if you don't have a choice, okay. If you can say I'm never going to get rid of it, but I'm might to change the way that I stutter how I stutter or Can I stutter with confidence? Can I maintain eye contact with somebody when I'm talking to them Can I maybe lessen the struggle of when I feel a block coming on or because you can still be a very good communicator. Like you can still hold a room as a person who's, stutters
Uri Schneider: you're holding the world right now.
Uri Schneider: You're holding the world. You got loves and loves. Blowing in from around the world, you're walking evidence of this. It doesn't need to be said it's unspoken. Cause you're an embodiment of it. And it's people like you that are my heroes of courage and strength and fortitude and such examples for others who are in that place where it seems so impossible, it feels so overwhelming.
Uri Schneider: And it feels like they don't have agency. They don't have choice. And what you're saying, the words are just overshadowed by your being Steven. Yeah.
Stephen Greene: If it's okay. Can I just take this time to just thank a few people as well, because just, they give back as well. So I really want to thank all of the people I've met on this or peers or report and movement of people that I've met today is have helped groups.
Stephen Greene: Fellow people whose throat are people that like being on my therapy program were alive and torch when I could feel them. They just bring joy in, into my life also, and also a big sale to the speech and language therapists that work with myself on my store train. So there was trees, speech, language care with this, and there, I think their passion for helping people who still call.
Stephen Greene: So I paid time John, Donna, and all the gods actually whole name has gone out of my head, but she actually knows who no worries. No worries. So
Stephen Greene: And yeah cause I eat, I think it's a very, I think it was very important to say thank you to people as well. Once you've managed to maybe. And once you've managed to get somewhere or you've managed to, for instance, that has worked for you as a person who's taught those, or I think it's important to just say thank you to maybe pass on from of that goodness that has been passed on
Uri Schneider: that is such a theme that has shown through these conversations. The importance of somebody opened the door for us in our journey and the importance and the delights, the responsibility, and also the lights to pay it forward and pass it forward. It doesn't cost a thing. You only, you gain more from it. On the one hand we're coming up to the top of the hour on the other hand far, be it for me to cap this off too soon.
Uri Schneider: So any other important messages and words of wisdom, and then we can certainly do this another round, but for this round I'm enjoying immensely and I'm gonna enjoy listening to this again. I know people are enjoying. If you've got to take away, please jot it down in the comments. We'll make it post worthy on social.
Uri Schneider: You can check it out@schneiderspeech.com. But yeah, just to give you an opportunity to share another little bit.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. I just want I suppose just coming up to the end to just let people know that the help is out there. And so whether it be speech, language services to language therapist or pat tologist and distortion home Mutante group also.
Stephen Greene: So I would encourage people to take action because I think one of the biggest things for people who still try it is maybe. The he was holding back. So like that stops them from taking action from making that four steps or making the four steps to get in touch, which our local chapter, or go online and join a Facebook group for people who still talk or just get in touch with the speech language therapist, the help is out there.
Stephen Greene: And the saw Porter is out there as well. So from your fellow people who start from the professionals also, so just tell people to retail because the community is there. The very help is out there also anyways,
Uri Schneider: it's like we could add to, so she ends quote another piece, like if you're a loss.
Uri Schneider: Trying to get yourself found. Ain't going to do you any good, signing, help and knowing that there's help out there. Both other people who stutter in a self-help space, individuals online, locally, and around the world professionals. There are good professionals out there just knowing you don't have to figure this out alone.
Uri Schneider: You're not alone. You're not the only person and that there are people out there that want to help from every which way. Steven, let's go to one controvert oh, go ahead. And then I was going to go ahead, queue up one controversial thing before we finish up.
Stephen Greene: So your address take a lead on that last thing that Ted.
Stephen Greene: So as far as Shane said as well, he says there's many roads that lead to Rome to, and from sodas, many roads to unfollow them. So like people have like the action
Uri Schneider: that's right. There are many roads and not all the gates are locked. You might knock on a door and the Intercom holds you back, or you might go and the cost is too high, or you might think the schedule of the local meeting doesn't fit your work life or your personal life.
Uri Schneider: There are roads that might work for you where the toll won't hold you back and the timing might be right. So just keep searching. If at first you do not succeed in finding what you need. Just keep looking because you'll find it. And the seekers become Sears. That's the line I heard from Kristin Comella.
Uri Schneider: So controversial, quick, a quick riff on this. I know that we first connected. Yeah, there you go. Now we're going to really go for it. We both we connected over observing conversations on social media, in communities for people who stutter and privately. We connected about things that were concerning.
Uri Schneider: And I was wondering if you want to just share on the one hand, obviously, a world that's more connected where communities can come together and I'm speaking as a father, whether it's things I'm dealing with personally, or for my own kids, nothing to do with my work, nothing to do with stuttering.
Uri Schneider: I'm grateful that there are communities I can go to, to learn more about things that other people are going through. In other parts of the world, it makes me smarter. It makes me feel like I'm not alone. It makes me feel like I have audience and connection with a whole peer group. And it just feels like a safety net, encouragement, support information, et cetera.
Uri Schneider: And at the same time as a professional, I always tell people, don't keep turning to Dr. Google because Dr. Google is not always going to give you the best way forward or the best information. So to in no way to knock the benefits of social media groups and conversations at the same time to be cognitive, what are some of the risks or some of the things that concern you from where you're coming from?
Uri Schneider: Any guardrails or thoughts about.
Stephen Greene: Yeah. Because just being on the store, trim
Uri Schneider: No names of any specific groups,
Stephen Greene: stuttering in groups from the last few months. And I suppose like this, isn't if you think about it, this isn't a new thing you don't, because if you think back to, I remember going on Lloyd back in 2005, and there are, I think you probably know a particular group that was present at the time, but like these conversations were happening back then on the internet anyway.
Stephen Greene: And I think it was similar, things were happening. So you would have a lot of value that was happening on these groups, but also you would have a lot of. Misinformation also, so information that was plainly wrong about store trim and being said on these groups. Now I can see that people will challenge the information that is put out there and what you will have other people that will reinforce maybe the misinformation that is put out there also.
Stephen Greene: So is that the role of the person whose photos to be able to this concern? Like what is the right information and what isn't right in, in for . So I suppose one of the challenges is to keep it a safe space for people who. So you might have somebody that's quite vulnerable that maybe they're not feeling great about our story and how can we as a group of people who are, who advocate for people who still are, keep these forms a safe space for for the Scotian standard happened then as well.
Stephen Greene: Oh yeah. I think that's we'll tinted, obviously groups have moderators and Sol, but also people have busy Lloyds, so they can't be on all low in 20, 24 7 to be tracking up the content is there as well. So I think these groups, they do have value to them to some very valuable people.
Stephen Greene: That are shame that are sharing some great egg, eight experience and a better story. But also on the other hand, there is quite a lot of misinformation that is out there that is reinforced by different people. So how can we as a community be able to move this forward?
Uri Schneider: I don't know. I don't want to add much, but I think I love what you said.
Uri Schneider: It's not a new problem. How do we make sure to leverage all the benefits and mitigate as much of the risk and as much of the harm that could come out? Inadvertently unintentionally? I think we're living in an exciting time, but the size of these groups. Is probably dwarfing previous the existing groups, even just 10, 20 years ago by a factor of 10 X or more.
Uri Schneider: So there's an incredible connectivity opportunity, but also, more of a vocal minority and so on. So I think the activation of the community in some way, the same you would do in a school classroom, to create a culture that that adheres and activates, not just the initial moderators and by the way, a shout out to any, and all people who are involved in these spaces as members, as participants, as the add of admins are just astounding people.
Uri Schneider: Many of them are people I know, and some of them are people that don't, but power to you to do this. But yeah, I I think the importance of somehow figuring out how do you become citizens of the cyber world and recognize some of the opportunity and responsibility that comes with it privileges and also the responsibility and meeting people where they're at misinformation is one thing fake news, let's say but then there's also just hitting someone with truth that might be true for you or truth for someone else at a different stage, but it's not the right truth to hit them with at that moment.
Uri Schneider: And it could be true as Steven is Irish and I'm Jewish, but it might not be the truth that they can hold at that moment. And so how to meet people where they're at, when they're at,
Stephen Greene: and then also like people might be overzealous in a certain approach or a say in the ideology when the Combs through story, whereas they lose the context of.
Stephen Greene: I am different to you and you're different to him. So maybe what are you see as the best thing ever maybe in another person or is that ism diet isn't the right thing, or maybe delay time for them just based stuff that you were just talking about? This
Uri Schneider: has been even more awesome than expected, which is to say a lot a lot of thank you, Stephen for this taking the time and the openness.
Uri Schneider: And I trust that you'll go through all the comments. You have lots and lots of fans, maybe even a tribe of people that are sending their their loves, their shout outs, their appreciation, their respect, and their encouragement. And for me, I leave today just a little bit more inspired, a little bit more informed, and I'm going to go practice my Irish accent again, because I'm working on it.
Uri Schneider: I'm working on it. As
Stephen Greene: we say in, in Dublin, yours sounds ascend.
Uri Schneider: I go, Ryan was here. He said he had to get back to work. He had to what serious, whatever that line was he had to get back to work, but he gave you a shout out for anybody who's interested. There'll be some more announcements that you can check out on social media Snyder speech on Instagram, on, on Facebook, some exciting opportunities for speech therapists to go further, to learn how to transcend stuttering and now get, the highest level of CEO's and lots of them.
Uri Schneider: So share that in your communities. If people either privately or publicly and opportunities for people who stutter to just get some free resources and tips and insights to find your way and to find your community. And the one thought I wanted to leave with everything we opened up there. If you've had a bad experience or a less than desirable experience in any community in person or any therapy experience or any support community online as Stephen said, there are many roads to ride.
Uri Schneider: Don't throw out the baby with the bath water know that it's not a good space for you or not a good fit for you, whatever that is, get away from it. But you might find that another place has a different culture, a different vibe, a different thrust. There's a place for everybody in this world and there is support out there.
Uri Schneider: No one should feel alone. There shouldn't be a barrier that holds anyone back and makes anyone feel isolated and Steven's there to make sure of it. And I'm sure we're going to have many more opportunities.
Closing remarks
Uri Schneider: Did you want to share one more? Send off?
Stephen Greene: Yeah, just to say just keep moving forward. Keep moving forward.
Stephen Greene: We have this.
Uri Schneider: We'll leave off there. Thank you so much, Stephen Green. And thank you everybody who joined us share this. It's worth sharing people. Love it. And thank you for coming. We can't do this without you so you can check it out on any podcast platform. Transcending, stuttering, subscribe, like drop a review.
Uri Schneider: It means a lot to, it helps us reach more people.