#47 Words Fail Us with Jonty Claypole
“And I realized in a flash in that moment that I had never, ever looked anyone in the eyes when I had started in my life, because it was so associated with me as something shameful. I always looked away while doing it. And I’ve spent my life fearing, what the reaction of other people would be to me, stuttering without ever looking them in the eyes to see what it was.”
BIO
Jonty Claypole is Director of BBC Arts, Chairman of the arts centre HOME in Manchester, and was listed in the Bookseller's Top 100 Most Influential People. Although born in Australia, he grew up in London and now lives in east London with his family. His most recent project at the BBC was the landmark series Civilisations featuring Mary Beard, David Olusoga and Simon Schama.
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00- 10:00: intro and growing up with a stutter, personal retrospective
10:00-23:00 why write this book, Words Fail Us; the real scoop with The King's Speech & King George VI; the wrong question and the right question; the "overcoming stuttering" narrative
23:00:29:07- stuttering: is it a disability or not?
29:07:30:00 - stuttering in the workplace and in life
30:51- 32:33- when is stuttering a disability
32:33-37:00- most admirable stuttering role models
37:00- 42:00 - the untold story of creativity and stuttering - in media and in the arts; let's start celebrating the creativity born from stuttering
42:00- 50:31: Jonty's family and mum, and closing remarks
RESOURCE LIST
MORE QUOTES
“I think the range of experience of stuttering in the spectrum is so vast that there are people who might identify as being disabled. And there are others who are like me who wouldn't. But what I do think is that we need to find some way to tackle the discrimination that is so hardwired into our society. - Jonty Claypole
The choice to say the word comes with great deliberation and great cost. And therefore it's more precious. And so very often I find myself and I listened to a person who stutters. I lean in more. I attend more carefully because I know these words are worth more. There's more that's been put into them. - Uri Schneider
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: Uh, from that experience through those years, um, because on the one hand you talked about how you continue to grapple with the stuttering and ways that today you wish had been easier or you'd gotten through. But, you know, I often like when I meet people later in life and they've had different experiences, some more helpful, some quite annoying, uh, what were your memories of, of what you were doing that, that was supportive, uh, with Lily?
Jonty Claypole: Um, she, so when I was at the Michael Pailin center and D something I've become aware of only through writing the book is the element of fascism that has gone through speech therapy over the last. 150, 150 years, there seemed to be moments where particular techniques are in favor. And then 20 years later, another sort of technique becomes in favor and none of them ever disappeared.
Jonty Claypole: They just form part of an armory, which are, you've talked about as a kind of, sort of cupboard of tools and techniques that you can draw upon. And there's no point saying that there is only one in one single solution. Um, but so, so when I'm, as at the Michael Palin center, what I remember very clearly was, uh, speech modification therapy.
Jonty Claypole: And I remember Willie, um, Timed my, uh, they, they did an exercise where they timed everyone's speech or all the children's speech. And I think, and I, I was clocking in something like 250 words a minute. And I remember with, he's saying to me, you know, only J he spoke as which I was sort of simultaneously proud of.
Jonty Claypole: Um, and so, um, On the so-so the course then was very much, this is the sort of late 1980s, sort of mid, late 1980s breaking our speech down to scratch and effectively rebuilding it, um, in a technique which they named, um, they called for us as kids, because we can deal with technical terms. We just knew as smoothed speech and it was build rebuilding our speech so that we would.
Jonty Claypole: Slow right down and soften into words. Um, and, and then you would pick it to pick up the pace and try and make it sound more, uh, normal inverted comments. I was very, uh, then during my teens early twenties, to be honest, I think a lot of my. Uh, the, the therapy relationship I had with Willie was then less about technique, but more about support and confidence building and having someone I could, uh, I could, I could just talk to, and that was incredibly important, uh, for me.
Jonty Claypole: And then the final stage was city lit in my early thirties, where. I was expecting a version of speech modification therapy. And I remember that the first session, uh, the therapist there saying we can't cure your stutter. Um, and what we're going to do is do a technique called voluntary stuttering, where you're going to start a more.
Jonty Claypole: And so it seemed to me the exact opposite. Um, and so I was incredibly surprised and, and, and very, very nervous, um, as well.
Uri Schneider: Reuben chef in one of our earlier episodes talks about that. Paradox that if you try to stutter bigger, it's hard to stutter. And if you try to suppress it, it seems to creep up on you.
Uri Schneider: And as Chris Constantino says, one of the things we know about stuttering is it doesn't behave the way we want it to. That's one of the constants that we wish it to behave. It just doesn't behave that way. But it's interesting to me, uh, just to, to pull out from what you said at one stage, it was about mechanics at another stage in your teenage years and twenties, it was much more about the support and the emotional side.
Uri Schneider: And then, and then that experience at city lit of course, but I think it's interesting when I meet speech therapists, if anyone's listening or if you're a parent or you're a teacher and, you know, someone who stutters. There's two sides of this iceberg that Joseph Sheehan talks about. There's the visible audible, you know, measurable experience on the outside.
Uri Schneider: And then there's this beneath the surface invisible side of it, the emotions, the feelings, the thoughts, the switching of words, the avoiding, the running away, how much of this plays a part in your decision-making in what you order for lunch and what major you choose in university, all kinds of things. So if a person.
Uri Schneider: Is experiencing much of the experience on the surface. It might be helpful to give them physical support and, uh, techniques and strategies for them to figure out how this thing works and how they can be influential at the same time. If they're having a very significant experience beneath the surface, it's so important that we give that the attention that it's due.
Uri Schneider: I, it would be unhelpful to ignore it. So whenever you meet someone or, you know, someone, or if you're the person who stutters, it's important to get the support you need and measure it too. However your experience is whether it's above the surface or beneath the surface. Do you want to share anything more about that?
Uri Schneider: I think the different stages of life and different people that you interviewed, maybe does that resonate with you just in terms of differentiating the types of intervention and support that we give.
Jonty Claypole: Yeah. Th I mean, the iceberg metaphor was very important and, um, and, um, uh, and, uh, and yes, w w what became clear to me was that different types of therapy are appropriate at different stages of life.
Jonty Claypole: It was just, uh, um, and so stuttering modification therapy. Was very helpful for me as a nine year old boy who had no awareness or control over my speech at all, except for a belief that if I spoke really, really, really quickly, maybe I could get more words out before I next started. And that had got me into this vicious cycle of, um, Avalanche speaking, where I just held down as many words until I stops.
Jonty Claypole: And, but, but, but then in my early thirties, thirties, voluntary staff offering was incredibly important because, um, That's that technique that we then have to take into our daily lives and working lives, um, uh, suddenly gave me a feeling of power and, um, and I can remember going into work meetings and deliberately stuttering on words.
Jonty Claypole: And, and feeling, uh, control and, and in, in the room and, and, and feeling that everyone had to wait for me to finish. And, um, and D the, the really important thing was the note about never to break high contact. And I remember the first time I did this, that I. Looked at somebody while voluntary stuttering.
Jonty Claypole: And I realized in a flash in that moment that I had never, ever looked anyone in the eyes when I had started in my life, because it was so associated with me as something shameful. I always looked away while doing it. And. I've spent my life fairing, what the reaction of other people would be to me, stuttering without ever looking them in the eyes to see what it was.
Jonty Claypole: There's a, um, There's a sort of famous folk tale in England called the three sillies about a family of people who there is an ax stuck in the sea in, on, on the ceiling of their, um, of their, a seller. And they won't ever go into the seller because. They, um, they, uh, fear that the ax will fall on their heads, so they won't go in and get cold or get any of the things they need.
Jonty Claypole: And finally, somebody comes into the house and just pulls out the ax and it's never occurred to them that they might do that. And I remember that story came to my mind that I've spent the whole time. Uh, with this kind of imagined idea of what somebody might look like or, or be thinking when they saw me stuttering and I've never actually looked to find out what it was.
Jonty Claypole: And that was what I started doing. It became a metaphorical transformation for me as well, because I realized I'd never actually, not only had, I never looked at anyone in the eyes when I started, I'd never actually looked at stuttering itself. And, and I remember I realized that. I've spent a lot of mental energy over my life, worrying about my stutter, but not actually thinking about it and for all of the hours and hours and hours and days and sleepless nights and wrong decisions.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, that I've made because of having a stutter. Um, I realized, I suddenly realized I knew almost nothing about what stuttering is. I couldn't, I couldn't have told you whether it is a neurological condition or a psychological one. I can tell you anything about the history of its treatment. I couldn't tell you anything at all about how stuttering has been positioned within our culture and society.
Jonty Claypole: And I couldn't tell you anything about the extraordinary. Uh, creative individuals who have had stutters and other types of speech disorders. And, and that last one is personal because my life and my career is rooted in the arts and, uh, and culture. And, and that was what then triggered me on, on the journey of writing this book, because I thought I, I just have to find out, I have to find out what this thing I need to look at it and the lines.
Uri Schneider: And it's the right time. It's the right time. Just a few hours ago on a call with New Zealand, with Cody packer, who mean wonderful film called first day. And he got a call from one of our therapists. It said that a client had this watershed moment, because similar to you growing up, it was just this elephant in the room.
Uri Schneider: Wasn't touched it, wasn't spoken about. And I figured he was the only person in the world having these feelings of going around the room and having this terror that his turn would come. And how could he somehow escape? Um, and he watched that film and that film triggered so much for him to pour out. So he contacted Cody and Cody told the therapist, you know, I'm working on my next film.
Uri Schneider: If you have any ideas I'm interested in the kid poured out all kinds of ideas that he wanted to share with the world that Cody couldn't embed into his film. What would you Giante? What would you wish you could tell your 12 year old self that would have been heard by your 12 year old self there's? Many things we wish we could do, but they don't relate to.
Uri Schneider: We wouldn't have listened to 12, but is there anything you wish the older Giante could have offered that 12 year old, uh, finding his way?
Jonty Claypole: Well, there's so many things, but, um, I think, I think, I think w what I would have told myself is that there's nothing innately shameful about stuttering. The, the choice is yours to own it, to walk the walk and talk the started talk.
Jonty Claypole: And if I act as if it's shameful, then it will be shameful and it's uncomfortable for other people to see somebody who's uncomfortable. And so I think what I would have said is the. The shame is in your head. That doesn't mean you're not going to be key because you will, because all school kids are teased for something.
Jonty Claypole: Um, uh, and that will be one of the things you'll be teased for. Um, but whether that's inherently shameful is, is, is not an objective fact. It's an, your interpretation and, um, experience of him.
Uri Schneider: Yeah, I want to spring off of what you said onto page seven of the book. If we could, is that all right? I loved what you wrote about King George, because everybody has an idea from the King speech and I became obsessed from reading your book.
Uri Schneider: I went back and I listened to more than just one speech. I listened to many, many speeches, and I was listening for how pronounced, uh, the stuttering was. And you shared a bit in here about. What the perceptions were of the people in the UK. It isn't exactly the way it's portrayed in its entirety in the film.
Uri Schneider: And I just want it to read this one piece and you could just elaborate George's speeches are a reminder that although fluency that although fluency and good communication often go together, they are not the same thing. There are those who have no trouble getting their words out. And fail to say anything convincing with them.
Uri Schneider: And there are those who struggle with speech, but still connect with the listener. Um, what were the, what were those insights that you kind of laid out there in the beginning of the book and that you think are meaningful to understand about the, the subtlety, the nuance, the complexity that's there with King Georgia six, the,
Jonty Claypole: the King George story became very important to me because.
Jonty Claypole: I, um, the King speech is a great film and it does what great works of art do, which is create a story out of something. And in terms of, in terms of its portrayal of stuttering and in terms of its portrayal of George's King, Georgia stutter. I don't think it's that, um, that helpful. The thing I became obsessed by was not the I've found that we've always asked the wrong question about King George.
Jonty Claypole: And the question is, did George overcome his speech? Impediment. Right. And that's what the King's speech is. It's it's about the question at the start of the film is implicitly. Is this man going to overcome this, this obstacle, uh, or, or not? And the, and the film sort of frames. The ending is as a sort of implied success.
Jonty Claypole: You know, he's still, he's still somebody who has speech impediment, but he can give this rousing, uh, he can give this rousing speech as long as he has a speech therapist standing two feet away from his face, conducting him. I mean, good luck with that. If you can have your own speech therapist sort of review or all the time.
Jonty Claypole: But I, I felt that, uh, we'd been asking the wrong question and the wrong question. Uh, The question shouldn't be, did George overcome his stutter? The question is, why did it matter? Why was it so why was it so important to, to the King, to the government, to, to the, the people of the United Kingdom at the time that they have a King who did not stutter and.
Jonty Claypole: As you mentioned, one of the things I got into was eyewitness witness accounts of what people who wrote diaries wrote about listening to his speeches. There's an amazing, uh, account of somebody in 1944 in a pub. Where the pumps would put on the radio, where the King spoke and the scribes, this collective anxiety, and a pub of people sitting gripping their glass, hoping the King's not going to stutter.
Jonty Claypole: And when he does block on a word, there's, the fingernails are going into the tables. And that was fascinating for me because why did it matter so much and why. Uh, why did George get to a point where he was, he was having speech therapist standing around him. They, the, all the emphasis wasn't on trying to get through a speech without him stuttering, and as a result, the only way he could do it was by speaking in this very mannered robotic way.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, what here and his therapist called three word breaks. You speak in three word break through your words break. Um, and so, so w when you listen to the speeches, he doesn't overtly start a very often, but he does block a bit, but. Any emotional or intellectual meanings to his speeches has gone because he's not speaking words, does anyone words and you think wouldn't, it just be better if he spoken his own voice and if you started, he would stutter, but at least his speeches would have the, the, the, the meaning and the intellectual and emotional content he, he wanted.
Jonty Claypole: So for me, that was a starting point that, um, it seems an important. Uh, great. Um, and why, um, why, why does it matter so much? Um, and, and, and that told me that there was something going on and, uh, as a society, our, our relationship with speech and with communication and with disfluency that there's something going on that is wrong, that, that, that needed looking apps and needed exploring
Uri Schneider: in, in leading up and kind of promoting this conversation, John.
Uri Schneider: I did a little video reading the last paragraph of your book, and I want to make sure we get to that because I think it's such a poignant and articulate and thought provoking place for us to leave off perhaps. But I think you've alluded to it. Let me ask you this. Obviously in America, we now have a president.
Uri Schneider: Who's a person who stutters, uh, there's a lot of conversation about the word overcoming stuttering. Has become a narrative that's that's being discussed and teased the part. And what does even mean to overcome stuttering? Does the person mean that they, they no longer stutter? Uh, my father and I wrote a piece, it was shared on, on STEM, on the British stuttering association and on our blog about Joe Biden is a person who stutters and he has also transcended or overcome his stuttering.
Uri Schneider: It doesn't mean he doesn't stutter anymore. But do you think England is ready for a King or a queen or prime minister who would stutter in other words with, with your perspective and everything you just shared? That was 19, the 1940s w we've grown a lot. We've gone much further. Do you think England is ready?
Uri Schneider: And do you think there are differences between UK and the U S and other countries for that matter in terms of culture and tolerance and readiness
Jonty Claypole: for that? I don't think the question is whether the United Kingdom or any cultural society is ready for it. I think it's the question is whether there is somebody who's ready to, to, uh, to assume that role.
Jonty Claypole: I mean, you don't know. You can, um, so America, you could have said five years ago, wasn't ready for a president who, um, who started in the same way, 15 years ago. Many people would have said, do you know, what's the chances of Barack Obama being elected, but if somebody decides that they're just gonna go for something, then they can set the template.
Jonty Claypole: So. You know, I think the great thing about Joe Biden is that he's just taught so much in the past about his experience of stuttering. And, um, so, so it's sad. The question is, is there somebody with a staff, so who's ready to take on that role and just, uh, and, and, and, and once somebody does it, then you, you know, people don't ask questions.
Jonty Claypole: I
Uri Schneider: think it's, it's interesting to me thinking about this topic of stigma and of why did it matter so much? And it, it's interesting as I'm listening to you now, it's more like I asked the question is the culture is the country ready? And you reframed it as. Well, the person who's rising up to the position has the qualifications, let him be the individual who shows them that he's the best person for the job.
Uri Schneider: Stuttering. All, uh, one could ask based on the culture or one could say this is based on the individual and it kind of changes the frame a little bit. I think there's a lot of emphasis in terms of changing society. And we only have so much influence, but books like yours and film and having more people in a very popular culture.
Uri Schneider: Arts will help if we have more diversity in the presentation of all types of speech, Michael J. Fox, for example, and others, you know, playing parts where their, their speech, which might've otherwise been thought of as far. And, you know, off the, off the edge of the, uh, at the end of the spectrum, if we have more representation, it normalizes it.
Uri Schneider: But what you're talking about, if I'm hearing you right, is the person themselves should spend less time being concerned about the concealment. And just show that they have all the attributes and all the accomplishments to step up to the plate.
Jonty Claypole: Yes. And that doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do, and somebody may encounter a lot of prejudice along the way, but that's how social changes is achieved.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, I, um, yeah.
Uri Schneider: I said that to a, there was a young man I was working with in the middle East and his father kind of pushed back on me. And he himself was a person who stutters and I was trying to help his son find a healthy balance between whatever he wanted to do to, to finesse and to figure out how he could get through words with a little less effort.
Uri Schneider: But on the other hand, I was telling him, this is how you talk and, and you know, you have a lot to do. And if you spend 90% of your energy trying to manage your fluency, You're going to lose 90% of all the good stuff that you could apply, because you're going to be investing in influencing management. And you're not going to be showing your best work and showing your best words and showing your best ideas.
Uri Schneider: His father says to me, you know, you don't understand this is not America. It's not America over here. This is the middle East, and there's a different culture. And I said, well, someone's got to change it. It might be your son because he was an extraordinary young man. But I think to your point, it takes that's how change happens through someone that pushes through.
Jonty Claypole: Yeah, I think the one thing that will help and, uh, the, we need to kind of collectively work on is, I mean, you mentioned this, but it's the overcome narrative and I think, um, it's, I think one of the things we can do to help is get beyond. Is try and get beyond, uh, stuttering being represented it as an obstacle to be overcome.
Jonty Claypole: And I think, uh, you know, Biden, who's an extraordinarily significant figure for suffering awareness. Um, I, I also have some, I, I sort of feel at times that he's put it slightly into parts of it. Presidential narrative of, uh, you know, individual success against adversity, um, of which, and he's put stuttering into that in a way, which isn't entirely, entirely helpful.
Jonty Claypole: And I, I think it's partly because we're storytellers as societies, aren't we? And so stuttering becomes, um, It, it it's, it's used a lot in films and books as a device. And it's, I mean, in Britain at the moment, it's a big plot, uh, device in, in Britain that Simon, you know, as we start, so this is, uh, Britain fans for anyone who's not, but one of the main characters in Britain was bullied as a kid by his father about his stutter, and then he's overcome it.
Jonty Claypole: And so it's, it's, it's a very common trope, a very common device. But I, I think not a helpful one because it sort of suggests that you can have a starter, but in order to sort of really succeed, you're going to have to overcome it. And I think one of the things I've been keen to emphasize through the book and in everything I've, um, said about it is that I'm, I I'm at a stage in my life now where I can pass.
Jonty Claypole: I can pass and versed comments from thing versus commerce for the audio version. But, um, as, as somebody who, who is a quote, fluent speaker and people are surprised when I tell them that I still identity the, I, I, the, I identify as a person who starters and that even though I appear to be fluent, I'm continuing to, to, um, to, to manage my space speech in ways.
Jonty Claypole: I'm not even aware of a lot of the time, but it it's very keen for me to never talk about stuttering as something I've overcome. I, I still identify as a person who starters, I still feel it there in, in my voice and words. If even if others don't hear it and I think it's important to own it because I think I'll always be a person who stutters and, um, and it's not something I've overcome.
Jonty Claypole: It's something I've come to live with in a different way.
Uri Schneider: So, perfect segue. So the next piece that I loved on page 27. You wrote for some stutter is a disability narrowing access to vast areas of human experience, whether it's jobs, relationships, or vocational fulfillment for many others, like me, it's a concern, but a manageable one that can be mitigated and even entirely concealed through word substitution and voice modification techniques.
Uri Schneider: And then there are others that don't stutter when they speak another language. So I was wondering, is it a disability or is it not a disability? Or perhaps, is it more nuanced than that is disability? Maybe context-specific similar to the way we know stuttering can manifest contextually differently. And I was wondering if, if you wanted to just shed some light on that, because there's value sometimes practically to labeling it as a disability.
Uri Schneider: And at other times that could be, um, an unnecessary, uh, stigma and label that, uh, is one of judgment. And again, takes away
Jonty Claypole: ability. I don't think, I don't think anyone can pronounce subjectively about that. I think it comes down to all of us as individuals and, uh, it, it, it, it comes down to when the individual, whether they choose to identify as disabled by, by, uh, stuttering, I think w.
Jonty Claypole: What's important is that people should know that is an option. So I think, you know, for myself and a lot of people I've spoken to, it never even occurred to us that there might've been a moment in our lives when we could have. Identified, uh, as, as being disabled and our starter as, um, a disability, it felt like it wasn't an option.
Jonty Claypole: It felt like the disability discrimination in the UK, uh, our disability discrimination act, uh, originated in 1995. But I think for most people who start from the UK, It felt that was to, for other people, not for people who stutter. So, uh, and I think the range of experience of stuttering the spectrum is so vast that there are people who, who, who might, uh, identify as, as, as being a disabled.
Jonty Claypole: And there are others who are like me, who, who wouldn't. Um, but w w what I do think is that, um, We need to find some way to tackle the, um, discrimination that is so hardwired into our society. So one of the things I obsessed about and I suspect many listeners do as well are job descriptions where they just boldly say.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, essential skills for this job. Uh, the successful candidate will be an effective influence, uh, communicator. So in my mind, that is a form of disability discrimination. And if you see that in a job description, you should refer it straight back, um, because it's specifying a fluent speaker and therefore empowering and interviewing panel to, uh, eliminate somebody on the basis of whether their speech.
Jonty Claypole: Is seen by them to be fluent or disciplined. Anyway, to answer your question, I don't think there is an answer. I don't think one can objectively say it's a disability or not. I think individuals can say that. Um, and, uh, but it's not, uh, um, as, as it should always be it's about identity and whether people choose to identify as disabled or not.
Uri Schneider: And I'm, I'm just wondering, cause I could think of no one better than you that might be able to articulate. Is there even an even more nuanced piece where in one situation, someone might choose to lean into the fact that it is a disability. If it's in a radio commercial saying all the terms and conditions at the end where it's got, you know, it said super fast and nobody really hears all those side effects for the drugs or all the conditions that don't apply to you that make you ineligible.
Uri Schneider: Um, saying that quickly may, may, may be a job that a person who stutters could not do, and that may be a disability in that sense. But in every other sentence, one wants to be seen as a fully able person. So I think it's, what do you think of that too? You see what I'm saying? That's the same person might grapple with that.
Uri Schneider: And is there a way to kind of roll with that or
Jonty Claypole: advocate for themselves? And I take a hard line in that I buy into the idea that there are any jobs that a person with a starter or any other sorts of, um, Uh, speech difference cannot do. I think that's all social, social framing. So, um, uh, my day job is in, uh, broadcast and I, and I think the world of broadcast is, um, uh, fluency, obsessed and intolerant of, uh, historically intolerant of difference now.
Jonty Claypole: So that doesn't mean that somebody with. A pronounced stutter can't have a job as a broadcaster. It means the broadcasting needs to change and is changing for that matter. Um, um, as well, so. Yeah, I, I, I, you know, and, and I remember talking somebody a few months ago, he says, well, there are some jobs, a person we've started with a starter.
Jonty Claypole: Couldn't do. I mean, you couldn't have a stuttering, uh, air traffic controller, could you? And I said, why not? I said we've got all sorts. I mean, there's no reason why not. And the idea that an air traffic controller is this muscular person with this kind of measured. Uh, I mean, it's what sort of planets you on it anyway.
Jonty Claypole: So I always start from the, uh, opposite side, which has proved to me that that job cannot be done by somebody with a startup. And then we'll talk about that. And
Uri Schneider: then what, so then what would be, what would be the justification or a scenario where it is a valid, uh, disability? And you talked about the idea, there were certain times in life where it didn't seem like a valid option to use that card or to identify with that.
Uri Schneider: Are you saying only in cases of discrimination, that that would be a case where you feel like you're being discriminated or are there other places where it's intrinsically a disability?
Jonty Claypole: Um, I think, uh, again, I mean, I've spoken, uh I've. I mean, I know people who feel that their speech has impacted their ability to have relationships in every part of, of, of, uh, of their lives.
Jonty Claypole: And so I think they would feel quite comfortable about identifying as, uh, disabled. Um, so, um, Yeah. So I don't, I don't think it's just an employment context. I think it, uh, because every part of our, every part of society is kind of structured around fluent speech. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, this idea of fluent speech has ended up kind of as a sort of foundation of so many parts of our lives, you know, right through to the pub conversation. You know, pubs are noisy places where you have to fight to get your joke and all the story you want to tell. And. If you have, you know, if there's somebody in that context who who's struggling to speak, it's not a great environment.
Jonty Claypole: It's, it's noisy and it's kind of bravado and slightly bullying. And so there's many different parts of society that we need to try and change.
Uri Schneider: I think, uh, you mentioned King, you're talking now, and I always tell parents of young people and give them concrete examples of people who stutter, who achieved every.
Uri Schneider: Every position in every industry. So the fact that Joe Biden is president and his speech is clearly not the same as everyone else. Um, is evidence that a person who stutters can be president of United States, Jack Welch, CEO of GE, he stuttered openly. They didn't talk about it a lot. He was very supportive to the stuttering community, the person who stutters was being interviewed and was considered the greatest.
Uri Schneider: Uh, CEO of all time. And obviously there are celebrities and music and television. Are there one or two people who are strike you as really exemplary and provide a lesson or an example of being people who stutter and how they, how they dance with it? You feel as a, is a striking lesson or example for others to learn from, because there are so many who say, Oh yeah, I stuttered, but you never see them stutter publicly.
Uri Schneider: So it's not as valuable perhaps. Are there one or two people that come to mind for you? I think of Mel Tillis in the U S as someone who was a renowned performer and wove his fluency and a cadence into his performance. Um, not in a self denigrating way, but in a way that brought humor and entertainment and was something that only he could do.
Uri Schneider: But I'm just wondering, do you think the
Jonty Claypole: company was he and my cousin
Uri Schneider: Vinny? Was that okay? I don't think he was, no, that was an act that was I'm blanking on who that was. That's an, uh, Pendleton. No, um, yeah, no, uh, Mel Tillis was a country singer. He was a singer and entertainer and he did humor. If anyone's looking on YouTube, look up the, uh, The rabbit skit that he does.
Uri Schneider: But anyway, there are so many examples. Um, but many of them are not as exemplary as others who stands out for you in, in, in
Jonty Claypole: the, in the UK where I live scribbious pet, who is a poet and broadcaster, um, who, um, Has ha has a starter and he's a hero for me because he's, he's built a career through broadcasting and his, and, and various moments in his career has come up against a broadcasting culture, which has been.
Jonty Claypole: You know, should we sorta pre-record and then we can edit it. And he's always said, no, no, no, well, you know, I'll stop for a bit, but that's fine. We'll just go with that. And so I think he's, he, he's a bit of a hero in my best of the world, which is the arts and broadcasting. Yeah. I also do think that we have, uh, that we are at an absolute golden moments, uh, right now, uh, uh, and one that is incredibly exciting and that some of the, some of the most interesting kind of public figures around at the moment are people who it's it's it's, it's not exclusively stuttering, but to have an American president who.
Jonty Claypole: Who who has been so Frank about his experiences with stuttering, I was very interested in writing the book and Gretta Turnberg, um, who, um, um, who, who doesn't have a stuffer, um, but, uh, has, uh, had selective mutism and, and there's talked about selective mutism and also Asperger's is kind of super powers and in her, and, and that's why.
Jonty Claypole: She was. So she's been so effective because she's said that every word I speak, I have to make a conscious decision to overcome my natural inclination, not to say anything. And so w what you hear in Gretta Turnberg as somebody who. Is speaking out of necessity rather than just to fill the air. Uh, and then of course, you know, Amanda Gorman and who, who did that extraordinary permit at Biden's inauguration?
Jonty Claypole: Once again, didn't have a stutter, but had a speech disorder for a while as a child. And has talked about that and talked about that influencing. In, in influencing who she is and what she does. So I think we're at a very interesting moment where, uh, people are just speaking a lot more. And I think, you know, to have Kendrick Lamar talking about his stutter or actors like Emily blunt, I think 30 years ago, people wouldn't have done at all.
Jonty Claypole: I think the show business industry kind of. I didn't like people showing what might be perceived as weaknesses. And, and I think we're living in a moment where just more and more names are coming to light each day of people who, who may be saying, this just happened to me as a kid, uh, or they're saying actually I still do it, but I think there's a momentum that is, is picking up real speed.
Jonty Claypole: And I think we've got this golden moment of opportunity now to really drive through and, and start to shift, uh, why the social perception
Uri Schneider: tremendous. I think one of the ways to surf that wave is if you have a young person that you care about helping them become aware of others out there of people like Jonty and others who are.
Uri Schneider: Uh, achieving who are living fully and also stuttering, um, if that's how their speeches and seeing how it's influenced and shaped. And I think that's what you were saying is that it can be something that ends up bringing out ingenuity, bringing out creativity, bringing out unusual ways to use language and words.
Uri Schneider: Amanda corpsman. I was going to say. I was busy plowing through your book, but my next, hopefully I'm going to go through much of her work. I think her poetry is absolutely stunning. And I think it's also striking in all the interviews. There's this discussion and it's kind of unnamed and unclear what it is.
Uri Schneider: Is it an auditory processing disorder she's talking about having, was it a stutter? Was it articulation? All I can tell you is if you look up the moth. That was about two years ago. She was in Harvard. She was already, I think, uh, a junior poet Laureate and she's performing and her pronunciation of letter R is clearly D roboticized.
Uri Schneider: That's how we would describe it. It's a, it's a, it's an R that you would send someone for speech therapy for, and she's performing with that. Same what she calls, right. Amanda sign language with her hands and, and just stipulating and just speaking so beautifully, but you can't miss the art, but what's amazing is.
Uri Schneider: With they're gesticulation and with the cadence and the way she delivers it fades into the background. And so it shines is her message, her content, her essence just flows right through, uh, her performance of the spoken word. So you shed some light. I just love to give you a chance, what are some of the assets or things maybe personally, and also from your research of others, that people with speech impediments and challenges and stuttering and others, how has that.
Uri Schneider: Actually, uh, formed and, and advanced that muscle or that exercise of use of language and words and communication.
Jonty Claypole: The there were several, but for me, the most important one is creativity. So through writing the book, I became completely fascinated by the number of extraordinary writers and formers and musicians.
Jonty Claypole: Who who have had starters. And, you know, we say that, uh, you know, roughly 1% of the population has, has experienced of stuttering. It's much higher in, in, in the arts. And the creativity is the bit. I'm interested in it. It's, it's, it's what my life has been about is studying creativity, understanding creativity.
Jonty Claypole: And it, it was the, the aspect I, I became most fascinated about and feel. I have some degree of kind of scientific understanding of, by sort of combining science and, uh, artistic criticism and appreciation. And. I won't talk about this for too long because I could do, but the one thing I really want to save is that I was really struck by the number of some of our most significant kind of writers or musicians for, uh, for whom stuttering was so clearly.
Jonty Claypole: Uh, a huge motivating force in their creativity. And yet historically biographers, uh, critics have always tried to ignore that and focus instead on other things. So to take one example, Somerset Maugham, uh, one of the most successful novelists of the 20th century, uh, thousands of pages have been written about his homosexuality and his creative creativity and not one about his stutter and his creativity.
Jonty Claypole: And some are set more even. And one is in one of his autobiographical essay said, if you want to understand me or myself, Uh, and my creativity, you need to know I'm a person who stutters. He even tells us where to look and nobody's ever done. So. And, um, and, and, and for me, that's part of the social discrimination, this unwillingness to acknowledge that there might be something happening in the brains of people who stutter that has a very, uh, ha has, uh, Pronounced creative potential to it.
Jonty Claypole: And the other is Lewis Carroll. I mean, Alison Wonderland, the most translated book in the world after the Bible and the works of Shakespeare was w was going to speech therapy all in the buildup to writing Alice. It was such an important part of his life. Um, and, and, and yet it's almost never mentioned.
Jonty Claypole: And instead we spend a lot of pointless time speculating about his sexuality, which we can never answer.
Uri Schneider: I think the, the in Congress nature of, we try to make sense of the world. And I think as of yet, and I think your book is making a dent in that there's this idea. How could that be? How could it be if it's someone with a speech impediment that that could be part of.
Uri Schneider: The formative experience of how they became such an artist and such a, such a writer. But I think you're shedding light on something, as you said, it's a trend that the artists themselves have said, this was a big part of how I became who I am is a big part of how I produce these works. And it's literally been ignored for the attention given to other things which may be of interest may be of less interest, but the ignoring this, it is an interesting trend that you've highlighted.
Jonty Claypole: Here's one more last amazing cause, but I think he's telling us something, his name was Charles Dodgson. That was his real name. He ran into that. Alice in Wonderland. He, uh, he writes in a letter. That he's, he writes a letter to his speech therapist that he's been struggling terribly on the hard C sound and that when he goes into a shop, um, to buy, uh, something with a hard to see, I think it's some cake, he, he sort of stops and walks out of the shop soon enough.
Jonty Claypole: He gives himself a pen name for, for his books. And what name does he give himself? Carol policy. So I. This to me is, you know, wonderful. But somebody who has a stutter who struggles on the hard seat when it comes to the moment when they can call themselves anything in the world. Invents a name of a hard seat.
Jonty Claypole: And that's the, that's the sort of amazing contradiction and enigma. And, and I feel in a way it's Louis Carroll, um, owning something and, uh, sort of taking it and ownership of that, even if it's an enigma that we have to unravel.
Uri Schneider: I love that the word enigma is that word. You attributed to our conversation in the book, but there's one thing I'll read from the acknowledgements.
Uri Schneider: And then that last paragraph, and I'll give you the last word Jonty. Uh, this has been a wonderful conversation. You write in the acknowledgements and I was honored to be included among a list of really remarkable people that you talk about your family, my greatest things go to my family and you say, my mother.
Uri Schneider: Has always encouraged me to write, although probably never expected to find yourself, copy editing the last draft of her 44 year old son's book. And I think, uh, w what a great compliment, what a beautiful statement that really goes in line with what you're talking about, that perhaps, perhaps all along, she encouraged you to write, knowing that inside of you was, this was, this writer, was this person who actually had a gift for words, even though the world might've been messaging to that.
Uri Schneider: You know your speech wasn't right. And I think for the young people out there for the parents out there for the adults out there to see the gem of a person, to see the spirit of the child, the person on the inside, and no matter what they look like, no matter what it looks like, how their abilities match up to others, certainly give them the support they need and deserve.
Uri Schneider: And that's a personal choice that everyone should make at the right time and the right way. But to always, always, always cherish the perfection of a child and the interests of the child and where a child can go. And that anything's possible. Never to put it, you know, an invisible, unnecessary ceiling or cap, so where people can go two things that came to mind as you were sharing.
Uri Schneider: I lost them because I was very moved by what I just said. But I think the importance of seeing people as perfectly imperfect and the importance of. The content is what really matters. And I think you said it before as well with the whole episode with the King, that the wrong question is, will the world tolerate me?
Uri Schneider: Will that person I'm interested in forming a relationship with will, will they take my stutter, but they tolerate my stutter. But if you come in with a healthy relationship with yourself and realizing what you bring to this job, what you bring to this interview, what you bring to this relationship, they will either take your relieve you.
Uri Schneider: And if they leave you, it's not the right place for you, but if you bring your full self. Stutter as well as all the other wonderful strengths that you bring. And perhaps you bring your stutter as a strength as well. It gives you experience. It gives you fortitude, as you said, it gives you deliberate communication that other people, Oh, this is what it was.
Uri Schneider: When you were saying about how Amanda Korman and others, maybe they choose their grid authority. They choose their words. I often think that people like myself who don't stutter, it's like word economics by words are very cheap. So they. I can throw them here and there for a person whose words do not come easy.
Uri Schneider: The choice to say the word comes with great deliberation and great cost. And therefore it's more precious. And so very often I find myself and I listened to a person who stutters. I lean in more. I attend more carefully because I know these words are worth more. There's more, that's been put into them, poured into them chosen.
Uri Schneider: And in that way, people who stutter should know that you have. Often more attention than others. And as long as you can hold that attention and let people know how you want to be heard, the world will listen because you have great things to say, I'll just read this last piece and then I'll hand off to you to take us home.
Uri Schneider: The solution I think is to go one step further, not only acceptance, but one step further, as well as accepting speech disorders. Let us all distrust language, a little more vigilant for the delusions and misuses. It has put to more open to experimentation, trying unusual words, strange sentence structures, resisting rather than striving for more consistent use, rather than seeking for better inclusion of people with speech disorders in society let's instead seek to make society use language more like they do.
Uri Schneider: We will, I think be more tolerant, creative, and wiser for it. I know that reading your book, Chauncey and getting to know you a bit, I feel more tolerant, a bit more creative and a little bit wiser. Thank you for this book and for this conversation, any, any parting wisdom or thoughts you'd like to leave us with?
Jonty Claypole: What I was trying to get at in that last passage is that I think. Whenever we look at or write or talk about so-called disfluencies or disorders, we need to actually look at them against what they're positioned against. And most of the words that are given to things like stuttering. You take a positive word and put a negative prefects on it.
Jonty Claypole: I mean, that's so depressing and so conditioning as well. You know, you have a disorder or a dispar ancy, and to come back to the question about why the George's speech matters so much, the thing I became very convinced about is that this thing called language, the thing called fluency and fluent speech.
Jonty Claypole: Um, our civilizations, our societies put a lot of weight on them. They have to carry our laws. They that how we communicate, they carry our philosophies. They carry, they carry everything and yet they are intrinsically flawed and. So we don't like it when anything draws attention to, to that. And yet it's very important that we do periodically draw attention to the limits and misuses of language.
Jonty Claypole: Um, and I talk in the book about some of the study that's been done on. Uh, the linguistic, the, the very conscious misuses of language by the Nazis in the 1930s. And you need people who can at certain points, point out those errors. So for me, people who start, or people who have speech disorders, where the people who can point out the emperor's new clothes about, about language with the, with the people who, who, who kind of slow it down and stop it.
Jonty Claypole: And. And suddenly draw attention to it. And rather than seeing that as a kind of shameful thing, we should see it as a very empowering and important thing and something which society needs us to do. And so we should take pride in the fact that we're people who have a different relationship with language that we, that we slow things down that we draw attention to the way language works, because it's, when you do that, that you start to realize.
Jonty Claypole: The many ways in which language and fluent language on a daily basis is, is, is, is, is put to kind of bad uses. So it's just a different way of seeing it. But, um, you know,
Uri Schneider: Mike, I hailed from the, from the Jewish community. So in our tribe, they sometimes say we're the people of the book. So we could maybe say that people who stutter are the people of the words.
Uri Schneider: Yeah, we could, uh, we could go for it. John D. This has been wonderful. I will post links where people can get this amazing book. It's called words, fail us in defense of disfluency by Jonty. Claypole get it. Get it for your friends. It's a masterpiece and instant classic. Thanks for taking the time all the way from the UK.
Uri Schneider: And if you're listening, share this, it will be available on transcending stuttering podcast. Thank you for joining us and thank you Johnny, for taking the time.