#48 Stage-Coach with Dr. Naomi Rodgers
“And as far as I’ve come, it’s like when I stutter in front of someone still, I don’t know, and like lose control. Like I’m kind of right back there in my eight year old self, you know, it’s like that feeling is always right on the surface that like I’ve messed up or that like, I’m not, you know, or like, which does wrong.”
BIO
Naomi Rodgers, Ph.D., CCC-SLP is an assistant professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. She directs the UNL Stuttering Lab where her holistic experiences as a person who stutters, active member of the self-help community, speech-language pathologist, and stuttering researcher inspire her to address empirical questions that are clinically grounded. She is specifically interested in growing our understanding of how people who stutter get ready to change, and how people who stutter process social-emotional information.
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00-5:40: Introductions including Iowa, Nebraska, hogs and speech-language pathology and research
5:40-19:50: Naomi's NPR podcast, medical vs. social, is #POTUS Joe Biden "doing enough" for people who stutter, Brayden Harrington for president
19:50-33:22: University of Iowa & the roots of speech-language pathology, hub of stuttering research and development and Dr. Tricia Zebrowski and ongoing study of the "stages of change" model
33:22-41:50 overviewing the 5 stages; helping clinicians and TWS/AWS get ready for change
41:50-52:10 exciting preliminary research finding
52:10-1:04:14: closing remarks
RESOURCE LIST
MORE QUOTES
“If we can identify a person's readiness to change and then match our therapeutic techniques to that person's readiness, then we can maximize those change outcomes. And so that's a way of tailoring our interventions to a person's readiness, to embark on the journey and to do these new, scary things that we often ask them to do.” - Dr. Naomi Rodgers
“You need to start with addressing those thoughts and feelings first to reduce the emotionality of our own stuttering to learn more about stuttering. To allow the person to not be so afraid of approaching it and working with it.” - Dr. Naomi Rodgers
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri: We are streaming good morning, Nebraska. It is not often that I, there like certain States that I don't get to visit and Kalamazoo was on my hit list. And I got to talk with, um, our good friend, Dr. Hoke, Gerlach, and now be with you. It's like I'm knocking off two States that I don't talk to often, Iowa. I feel like you carry with you.
Uri: You know, Trisha is a broski and all your experiences in Iowa. So I get to like, check that box off a little bit and then Nebraska. Wow. Wow. Like what else is doing in Nebraska other than you and the good work you're doing. That's how a new Yorker would look at it. I'm sure there's a ton of great stuff.
Uri: The other person that's in Nebraska, there's a lot of good stuff. The other person, my other favorite person in Nebraska is Frankie Jones. Frankie Jones is the rapper who features in the movie, transcending, stuttering. And then thin black guy, great baller. He became, um, a pastor. If I'm not mistaken, he's also a rapper.
Uri: He recently released another album. Anyway, he's from Lincoln, Nebraska as well. And with that little sideways intro, here we are. And it's great to see you. So my name is where you, Schneider is the transcending stuttering podcast, exploratory research and development talking and learning from some of the great people.
Uri: You know, around the world and this morning to have Dr. Naomi Rogers coming to join us. Um, again, one of the very, very important, um, articulate and really exploring some of the most important things that until now have been somewhat of a black hole. And we'll talk more about what her research is all about, but she's doing some incredibly important work and it's a big privilege.
Uri: And due to her schedule, it took a couple. Months to get her to, um, to be able to be here. This was planned long in advance, but it's great to have her and I'll just give an intro and then we'll kick it right in. Uh, Dr. Naomi Rogers is an assistant professor at university of Nebraska Lincoln. She's the head of the UNL university of Nebraska Lincoln stuttering lab.
Uri: Were her holistic experiences as a person who stutters and an active member of the self-help community, speech, language pathologist, and stuttering researcher, kind of all collide and come together to make the tapestry of who she is, inspire her to address empirical questions that are clinically grounded.
Uri: And she's specifically interested in growing our understanding how people who stutter get ready to change and how people who stutter process, social, emotional information. Without further ado. What did I miss? Welcome to this conversation. Naomi,
NR: thanks so much. I'm so honored to be here with you.
Uri: What's something that's not in the bio that you would hope people would know.
Uri: You were telling me that, uh, your routine at home includes some. Some other humans, you know, I don't know what you want to share, but yeah. What would be something you'd like people to know that doesn't show up in your typical bio when you're presenting in a formal way?
NR: Yeah. So I live, I live here in Lincoln with my husband, so we work in the same department.
NR: So, uh, home work lives are very much blended and it's beautiful in that way. And we also have, uh, a toddler, her name was Margaret she's two years old. And so she's keeping us on our toes. And so I guess one thing that's kind of fun is you just get. I dunno, just as a speech pathologist and a person that's interested in human communication has just been mind blowing to, uh, see her speech and language kind of explode right now.
NR: And that's just been really, really fun and challenging as does a beautiful toddler toddler. Um, but it's, it's all good. Yeah. Never thought that I was given a Fresca. I mean like that. Rock my world wouldn't happen, but we're just loving it here. It's just, it's great.
Uri: If someone wants to go to Nebraska, what's one thing that you discovered is like one of the wonderful things about living in Nebraska and what's something someone should prepare for, because it's a bit of a change from maybe New York city, uh, anything exciting there, what's the highlight, you know, what's the draw.
NR: Oh the, well, the draw, the draw is that people here are so friendly. I would say people here in Nebraska are friendlier than anywhere I've ever been. Um, It's a very convenient place to live. Lincoln is actually much larger than I ever imagined before I came here. Um, one thing that can be kind of a deterrent or kind of a shock is that there are more hogs than people in Nebraska.
NR: So if you're not, if you're not, um, you know, like not into farming, farm animals, this might not be the place for you.
Uri: Gotcha. So like something like, uh, like this yeah. You would fit right in. I'm not a cat. I am not a cat. Okay. We'll move on for those of you that are listening and not watching, I just put on a little filter, but I knew how to take it off.
Uri: Um, so Naomi, um, I am fascinated with so much of what you're doing and we spoke last year, uh, and I was able to, you know, just contribute a little bit to what. What I could to your study. So we could kick off. You want to tell us whichever project you want to start with. There are two really Epic projects you're invested in.
Uri: You can start with whichever one share what you feel is most important. And maybe we could also touch on around the time of Joe Biden, uh, the inauguration, you had an incredible radio piece, which I shared, and I will share on our blog when this is finished. Um, I shared it on social, you know, NPR had you on.
Uri: And I just, I loved what you said and I thought it was so great to hear your voice. Um, so if you want to. Sure on that. And then maybe jump into the first and second projects. That'd be great. And just roll from there. Yeah.
NR: So, yeah, so, um, um, NPR is shortwave podcast reached out to me because I wanted to do a piece on stuttering and they wanted it to come out on the day of Joe Biden's inauguration, which was really monumental.
NR: Obviously people in the stuttering world are, um, this is a huge. Huge huge rallying effort, um, and excitement about, about that. So they reached out to me and they said they wanted to do a story about stuttering. And they said, well, how did you find me? Like, there are so many people in that stuttering world that are doing amazing work.
NR: And they said, well, you know, we're looking for someone that has been kind of, um, in all. Spots at the table. Right? So you have someone that's, um, who knows the personal experience of stuttering. You have someone that also knows the research and the science behind stuttering. Um, And also speech pathologist.
NR: And they're also, you know, like now, nowadays, like they're looking for folks who are of marginalized identities, minority populations, and so forth. So you're getting into a pretty niche area at that point. So they reached out to me and it was so fun. We had a two hour conversation, um, with the podcast hosts.
NR: I don't know how they welded down to 15 minutes, but they did. Um, and yeah, it was just. It felt like the, um, the podcast hosts were really interested in kind of understanding the, the social, so aspect of stuttering. Um, you know, I offered our medical diagnosis of stuttering, which is a very listener based definition.
NR: That's stuttering as defined by these over disfluencies, but that's missing the Mark because the experience of stuttering is so personal. And so I think that our definitions of stuttering moving forward really need to be focusing on the speaker's experience of what. Of, um, what that's like. Um, and they, they got it, they understood it.
NR: And they really were fascinated by hearing about the medical model of disability versus the social model and how that applies to stuttering and what our society can be doing to make our world an easier, better place for folks who stuttered. Um, and so that was wrapped up in Joe Biden. And so, and his, his journey, his experiences, and the part that they didn't include, um, in the podcast,
Uri: this is great.
Uri: We're going to get the parts that you wish they would have included, or that you felt was important enough to share, but didn't get out there. So this is like the behind the scenes cutting room floor. Here we go. Let's hear what this piece is.
NR: I mean, it's, it's nothing, it's nothing new, but I feel like Joe Biden, like isn't.
NR: Really he's, he's, he's elevating stuttering for the global community and that's great. And so is getting a lot of attention, but he's not owning it as well as a lot of us in the field, like really wish that he was, you know, he talks about overcoming stuttering and he hasn't really talked openly about stuttering since he became, uh, the democratic nominee.
NR: Um, he had done so previously the AIS, like he was a keynote speaker and he's talked openly about it then, but like ever since he became, he, um, Yeah. W was, um, at all debates and actually elevated himself to become the nominee, like the stuttering, sorry, kind of went away except for Braden Harrington and his connection with Braden.
NR: I know that you've, you've talked to Brayden and this family. Um, and so that was, um, it's been a little bit challenging trying to say like, yes, it's great. Like he is her as like really pushing the field forward and stuttering, he's getting the attention out there, but he's not doing it in a way that I think is really.
NR: Actually benefiting people who stutter, um, by educating the community, you know, um, advocating for himself that like he still stutters, but he's still obviously a hugely effective and influential leader. Um, that part is missing.
Uri: That's like super subtle. So that was shared on that NPR piece. Are you surprised they didn't include it?
NR: No. So then they, you know, that's like the, the real star that shows Brighton Harrington, right? Like he's the, he's the brave one. Like he's the one that was able to get up in front of a national audience and stutter openly. And that is a narrative that we need to be pushing forward. Um, to yet
Uri: Amanda Gorman said she's running what?
Uri: In 2032, she's going to be the command. She's going to be Amanda in chief. So I think Brayden is probably like 20, 36. You know, Brandon and chief, you know what I'm saying? Um, I think it's interesting just to, to kind of like jump into that, I think for a moment parentheses the question of, um, cause you said there that the way he's handling his narrative, um, maybe isn't doing enough or isn't really helping people who stutter.
Uri: Cause it may be perpetuates this idea of like this narrative. Well, I used to stutter once, um, and I use that to my advantage when it's helpful to get whatever that gets. But on the other hand today, I think most of us who understand this and see him, we know that he still grapples with that. And I think that's, that's an objective truth.
Uri: My father and I wrote a blog piece on it and it was picked up and spread a little bit, the, the paradox, right? And I've met so many people. I've met parents. I'm thinking of one person in particular, very successful person, a CEO of a major corporation. And he's a person who grew up with a stutter and he says, and he's there for his child who stutters.
Uri: And he says to me, I just want you to know. I don't stutter anymore. I'm done. Like I used to stutter all the time and now I don't stutter. And then he says, but I want you to know, I want you to know that before I go on TV interviews. And I know there's a certain word, that's like the keyword for the interview.
Uri: And that word is a word that I historically have come up against. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop thinking about it. And there's so many. Messages in that statement, but I just wonder if we could take that to the president who is a person who stutters, he, he runs his life and his affairs as everyone has a right to, but certainly there's people in the community that wish he would be more open.
Uri: I wonder. Number one, what would you wish he would do or say like, if, if you could call the shots, if you could advise him, what do you feel would be a realistic, uh, suggestion and thinking about stages of change, like where he's at. You know, both in terms of context and in terms of his own journey. And I also wonder second thought, and I've shared this with, um, Barry yeoman.
Uri: I wonder if putting kids like Brayden out front is like a surrogate for something that he might not be ready to do, even on an, on a personal level or because of his position. He doesn't feel comfortable, but he certainly expressing something special by putting someone like Brayden out front and, and, and the videos that were shared, especially the ones that were not on the DNC, but were Brayden sent him a message.
Uri: Like you're going to go to the debate and you're probably going to stutter but wrong. And you can see how deeply that touched Joe Biden. And he didn't cut that off. He put that out there. So I just wonder both in terms of. Stages of change even for a person of his age and his position. I wonder if there's a piece of that that indicate that's indicated by how he's dealing with it.
Uri: And secondly, I wonder if we can give him some credit by saying, like he didn't have to put a kid as awesome as Creighton who stutters as well as Braden out front, but he did. And I wonder if that's his way of saying I couldn't do, I don't have, but this kid has. And when Brayden gets up there and I don't stutter, but I feel like so many adults who stutter.
Uri: Absolutely go Gaga for that kid and all young people who show courage because it's that, it's that free spirit inside all of us. That at some point we started to mitigate all of us with whatever our challenges are. We started to hold back a little bit because like Raiden and so many others every day, living it, speaking their truth, expressing themselves freely in the face of a stutter is heroic.
Uri: It inspires all of us. So I just wonder if you had a thought on that.
NR: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there, a lot of good stuff. So I agree with you that I think that by, I think by Beau Biden, elevating Brayden, and highlighting his story and his, um, reaching out to heighten across all of these. Moments. Like, I think, I think you're right.
NR: I think that he's, I think that by missing saying like, Hey, look at this super brave kid and we had this really special connection, but I think you're right. That that's kind of his way of like disclosing to the world and talking about it when like maybe he himself, like isn't really feeling, um, I'm not sure that it's not quite bravery.
NR: I don't know what it is. I think. It's complicated because he is of a different generation, you know? And so we know starting has been stigmatized for so, so long and it still is. Um, and so he spent his whole life, um, maneuvering stuttering in a world that doesn't accept it. Right. And so you can't. It's really hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
NR: Right. It's I don't expect him to like all of a sudden now, like embrace it and like stutter, openly and national
NR: television, all that stuff. Because like, I mean, he, um, that that's just not going to happen. So I guess in terms of like, what I hope he would say
Uri: interject one side. Yeah. Leading up to exactly whatever you're going to share.
Uri: I think it's, this is what we're hitting on right now is such to me an interesting observation of the dilemma that every parent and teacher faces with young person who stutters, because they have their hopes of how that other person would handle their stutter. They have their own wishes of what would be best for that person.
Uri: And maybe a little bit will be best for them, but even let's say a totally altruistically, like, I really think it'd be best if you would just, Hmm. And I think in a way we're, we're walking into that same space, like wondering, well, how would we want Joe Biden to handle it? But he is a public figure and he is an important person in history.
Uri: And certainly in the history of people who stutter kind of demonstrating how far you can go. So I just wanted to share that this is not just about Joe Biden. It's also about how two people. Have their expectations and hopes. And then how do you kind of fit that to the other person who may be in a different place and your best hopes with the best intentions could be so off.
Uri: And it's exactly your topic. That's why I felt it was worth diving into.
NR: It's such a good point. I mean, I've worked with people who started, especially young people and like the, it is a dilemma because as much as. They want to work on being open as, as much as like a person might want to work on being open, disclosing stuttering openly, there is fear of negative listener evaluations, right.
NR: And that's just such a hallmark experience of stuttering. But like we, as a speaker can not control what other people think and do just as like our listeners can control what we, the speaker think and do. And so I agree, like I was going to offer like what I wish. Joe Biden would say, but like, I think that you're right, that like, ultimately, like it's his journey and like the way that he's handling it is like it's, it's it's him.
NR: And like, I, I do think that it is dangerous to critique. A person's personal narrative. Right. And that's probably my NPR didn't include that part of this in the podcast.
Uri: Um, I think, I think there are other reasons. I don't think I like the subtlety. I think that it was a moment to just be all positive and oozing as goodness, which was for the purpose of that.
Uri: Yeah. It totally apolitical comment there. But going back to what you said with all that being said, if you had your Withers, if you had, if you could dream it up. What would you move on for? What would you wish would be the way he would tell the story? The way he was open a bit more. Give
me
NR: just like, yeah, just like calling it out is like, we all like, like those of us that have tuned years, right.
NR: Like we listened to him talk and we're like, Oh, there was an avoidance, there was another voice, there was another avoidance. Right. And just like all, you know, it's I guess my hope for like the broader stuttering community was is that he would just say like, um, You know, I might've overcome the like, um, you know, social barriers too.
NR: Like I, it hasn't held me back from achieving the highest, highest level in the world. It's incredible. Like, obviously it hasn't held him back. Um, But talking about how it's still, it's still a thing that he experiences daily. So I think that he's coping with it. Hasn't gotten his way, gotten in his way of being an effective communicator and effective leader.
NR: I'm an ally and advocate, like all of these, all of his identities and all of his roles in our world, um, are still there even if he stutters or not. Right. And so it's almost as if like he's trying to save face by not talking about it, but. Stuttering has probably propelled into achieve those things. Um, in, in a way, you know, a lot of people that are talk about how they're more empathetic, they're better, listeners are better people all around because of their experiences with stuttering.
NR: Um, And so, um, I just wish that he would help our society understand that stuttering is not associated with reduced intelligence or capability and all of that. All of those misconceptions, he can really lead the charge and say like, Hey, I still start. Or sometimes, um, I still cope with it on a daily basis, but look at all the amazing things that I'm able to accomplish.
NR: And, and this is true for all people who stutter it's it doesn't have to hold people back and actually propelled them to achieve wonderful. And amazing things. Um, and that's just the narrative that I hope that he would spend in an ideal world.
Uri: Well, until he does it, it's good to, there are people like you out there making that impact and getting the world to know what they need.
Uri: Um, and, and the other thought is going with your approach is, you know, looking at the stages of change, there's still time in the clock. There's still time in the clock and his presidency. And, and hopefully for as long as he serves, he should be strong and healthy. And there's more time after that where he may.
Uri: Uh, out of office, say things that he's not ready to say yet, but, um, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. So with that, let's go to maybe the stages of change and maybe, maybe talking about, you talked about generational stuff. I think it's a great transition to talk about. You studied in Iowa. Iowa has a bit of history in our field, and I think that, that you and I, and all of us in our.
Uri: No, we're all in our twenties, I guess. You know, we, we stand on the shoulders of giants, people who we look up to her, what, like in their thirties and forties, people like, um, Trista, Tricia Dubroski and others. So what can you tell us about the legacy of Iowa and the th the legend that is Tricia? It's a browser and the kind of impact.
Uri: Okay. Well, I think it deserves it. Trisha, you're welcome, you know, next week, but, um, Yeah, just in a nutshell for people that have no idea what Iowa means to the evolution of our field and the evolution of literature, as well as Trisha, as an individual, just a few nuggets, and then we can get to your current work, because I think we have to recognize all of our, today.
Uri: This is on the shoulders of people that tread the path
before
NR: us. Of course. Yes. Yeah. I'm so I'm, so I'm so glad that you brought this up. So, um, as you said, there is an incredible amount of history at the university of Iowa. So back in the 1920s, um, there were a group of actually psychologists, um, who started at Delta, the apology at the university of Iowa and Iowa city.
NR: Um, they realized that there was really no, um, specialty to address, um, Communication differences and an issues. Um, so there was a group of psychologists that started this new program at the university of Iowa and they identified one man, his name was Lee, Travis. Um, and they identified him as kind of like the pioneer of this new field.
NR: Um, and the first problem was, was the area of stuttering. And so what's fascinating is, are. What that means is, is like that, those interconnections between like, um, speech and language and psychology, um, and the, um, interconnection of those started because a stuttering, um, which as we all know, like is still highly relevant today.
NR: Um, So, yeah, so that's started. And then like I was sitting in the university of Iowa, became this hub for people who stuttered to come for specialized treatment, that people were coming from all over the country. Um, and also the training of therapists and researchers in the area of stuttering. So when we got Wendell Johnson, we got Dean Williams, we got Charles van riper.
NR: We got all, all of the grades who, who trained at the university of Iowa. Um, and so without going into too much, Additional history about like all the, like really Seminole theories and stuff that came out of that time. Um, so the university of Iowa, um, had Wendell Johnson. He was like, uh, actually the speech and hearing department at the I was named after him after Wendell Johnson.
NR: Then came Dean Williams was deemed Williams students. So he was faculty to Iowa for Matt for his career, and then came Trisha as a Tricia. It was at the university of Iowa from the 1980s until her retirement just a couple years ago. So the university of Iowa is hub, incredible history, and they're really only been re stuttering specialists that have held that position with that university.
NR: And so Trisha obviously. So highly regarded in our field and she's such a master clinician and just all around us, amazing person and storyteller. Um, and so, yeah, it was just so she's enjoying her retirement now. Um,
Uri: and she doesn't seem tired. Like it's interesting. And it's remarkable. So many of our colleagues, they, yeah.
Uri: They don't retire. They kind of retire on paper and they just can't stop because Trisha is still running, you know, facilitating all kinds of things with friends, uh, for younger who stutter and active with you and speaking. So. Yeah. And her longevity and her energy and her commitment.
NR: Yes. Um, and so Trisha is a last big project before she retired was, um, was taking it the stages of change model and applying it to the, um, the change processes, especially for adolescents, because adolescents who start were her bread and butter.
NR: That was the population that she was most challenged and inspired by. Um, And so the stages of change model was born out of the fields of behavioral health, and health psychology to say that people, um, a person's readiness to change. Has a huge impact on their change outcomes. So the person is not ready to change, but, um, you know, they're working with a therapist or they're going into the self-help community and they're being bombarded with activities and exercises to do that.
NR: They're not ready to engage in. That's a mismatch of the person's readiness to change and the stuff that they think is going to help them. And so you're going to get a lot of resistance, right? You're not going to get a lot of, um, Forward movement in the change process. If we can identify a person's readiness to change and then match our therapeutic techniques to that person's readiness, then we can maximize those change outcomes.
NR: And so that's a way of tailoring our interventions to a person's readiness, to embark on the journey and to do these new, scary things that we often ask them to do. And so that model,
Uri: just to make that, uh, for those. Um, just break it down for people that are, yeah. I mean, Naomi's talking at such a profound level.
Uri: I'll just break it down for the clinical frontline. There was some questions from people also who might not appreciate how rich and practical and impactful those comments are. What that means is not only is there no one way for every person who stutters, not only is there no one way for every therapist, but actually whatever you're.
Uri: Your skillset is and whatever exercises and experiences and suggestions and approaches you're equipped to use. Even within that, you need to look at not only the bean counting of how many stuttered moments and not only what type of stutter, but there's this other aspect that's been overlooked and that is the person and that there's an evolution of readiness.
Uri: And the day that their parents thrust them into therapy, it doesn't mean that they're ready to jump all in. It might mean they already put their feet in. And if you do a full immersion experience, it might not be the right fit. You have to figure out what stage they're at. And just adding that to the assessment and to the data that you're constantly looking for to inform what would be the best fit experience, the right thing to serve.
Uri: I think of it. Like you go to restaurant, here's an appetizer. There's a main course. There's a dessert. If you served up the dessert, you bring out the dessert cart too early. It's just out of step. And therapy is sometimes out of step. It's not that it's bad or that it's good, but if it's not the right fit at the right time, it's just off.
Uri: Yeah.
NR: Yeah. And so I think that a lot of clinicians think, you know, well, if there is a person who stutters that I'm working with, if we can, but it also presented with a lot of negative thoughts and feelings about themselves or communication. If we can get them to stutter less, then those negative thoughts and feelings will propose.
NR: We'll go down also. But I think that that is totally backwards. Right? And so I think that a lot, as I, as a part of this research project, they interviewed a lot of stuttering specialists and adults who stuttered themselves. Who've been into therapy process and across the board, um, stuttering specialists, um, and folks who stutter agree that you need to start with addressing those thoughts and feelings first to kind of.
NR: Reduce the emotionality our own stuttering to learn more about stuttering, to allow the person to not be so afraid of, of approaching it and working with it. Um, and so that was one of the biggest takeaways that we've gotten out of our research is just the importance of that holistic approach and not having that unit dimensional focus on fluency first.
NR: Um, cause that could be, yeah, obviously a fallacy, um, that if we dress this, if we make the stuttering go away, then they're going to feel better about themselves.
Uri: Awesome. So that's super. So where is that kind of in its evolution of your work and kind of what have you achieved and what yet lies in front of us as we follow your, your journey?
Uri: Okay.
NR: So Tricia, as I said, that was kind of her last big project. So she got an Ashoka foundation, clinical research grant to apply this. Um, I, I didn't really talk about the five stages yet, but there are five stages of change. So I might just summarize those really quickly. Cause I think it's helpful. So the first stage, um, is known as pre-contemplation.
NR: So people who are in pre-contemplation are not at all thinking about making a change, they are either. Denying that there is a problem or they are hugely, um, overestimating the cons of making a change. And so they are kind of stuck there, like not thinking about a solution because they don't think that there's a problem necessarily.
NR: Um, and so these might be clients who stutter that are brought to therapy by their parents or by their employers, someone, but they themselves don't think that this is a problem. Um, the next stage is contemplation. So contemplation is when folks are thinking about making a change in the near future. So perhaps like in the next six months or so, so these people might still be kind of overestimating the cons of making a change.
NR: Um, But they're, you know, maybe they're starting to think about joining a self-help group, or maybe they're thinking about starting or calling an SLP for initial eval. Um, maybe they're starting to like follow people who stutter on Tik TOK or Twitter and stuff like that. Um, and so they don't have concrete plans for how to change, but they're starting to think like this doesn't feel right and there's something that I might want to do about this.
NR: It
Uri: might even be listening to you right now.
NR: Yeah, totally. Yes. You know, and so, um, The third stage is preparation. So people who are in preparation are taking baby steps to actually engage in some new behaviors, whatever those are in any immediate in the immediate future. So we're thinking like in the next month or so, so these are people that have, have called to make that first appointment with the speech therapist.
NR: They are, um, they have it on their calendar to go to that. At first support group meeting, maybe they have gotten an IO, like an autobiographical book about stuttering, and they're really educating themselves and taking baby steps towards making change. So the fourth step is action, right? So action is where people are actively learning a new skill or changing a behavior.
NR: And most clinicians think that clients are inaction when they show up. At their office for that first evaluation. And that is a huge problem. That's stage four out of five. And so, um, in action, people are trying on new skills or learning how to change their thoughts and feelings, sort of learning how to change, how they talk.
NR: They're they're actively seeking out interactions that they're afraid of. Like they're actively doing things to make positive changes. Um, and people are an action for about six months or so once they've moved. Beyond that timeframe. Then we said that they're in maintenance. And so people can be in maintenance for as little as six months through the end of their life.
NR: And they could like, it lasts forever. People in maintenance are working hard to maintain those changes. They're trying to resist relapse. That's kind of like a stages of change model lingo, right? But they're resisting relapse. And so they are, even if they've had a difficult speaking situation, they are getting back on their horse and moving forward, they're not ruminating so much.
NR: It's not really defeating them. Um, you know, we know the stuttering is highly variable and so people who are in maintenance tend to kind of ride those waves well, um, and just have this level of acceptance of the challenge of stuttering and I've learned to cope with it. Well, So that's kind of a summary of the five stages.
NR: Um,
Uri: and so again, go ahead just to give people pause. That was Epic. If you're resonating with that, you know, drop a comment or a like on the video, but just the idea that there's actually a framework to think about staging, like where a person's at. I think if it's similar to a Tesla launch and obviously I always think of a space X launch, excuse me.
Uri: That's that takes off on a, on a horizontal plane. I'm talking about space X going vertical, but you have different things that need to go well at different stages, right? And different teams become relevant at different stages and they're not relevant at other stages. So the team that maneuvers, you know, out of orbit rockets that are positioning.
Uri: Anyone that knows who I'm talking about, you know, what I'm talking about. Um, but it's not relevant at liftoff when the greatest amount of thrust is required. So the same thing in the therapeutic journey, there's this idea and looking at how this applies. So I think it can be very eyeopening for anyone that's listening for yourself, for someone you love, for someone that you're trying to provide care for and be a champion for thinking about what they're ready for, um, is so important.
Uri: And I just think that's, that's precious.
NR: Yeah, and this is, this is a way to really tailor our therapy to the individual client and a way to ensure that our therapy is personally meaningful for the clients that we're working with. And I think that one way that we express and show our. Expertise for lack of a better word.
NR: Cause I wholly believe that the clients are the experts, but we can show our competence as clinicians by, um, expressing our understanding that you might not be ready for this. And that is okay. Making a positive change to stuttering is really, really. Hard work and it takes a lot. It takes a lot of support and it's a very complex, messy process, but I am here to support you and we are going to do what you're ready to do on your terms.
NR: Um, Naomi, tell me
Uri: if it bothers you that I keep interrupting. Do you want to keep your train? Cause I just, I just want to tell you, you, you eat this for lunch and you're in Lincoln, Nebraska, and for all of its beauty and all of the hogs and all of the space and all of the friendliness. I'm not sure, you know, how much, what you're saying is resonating with people.
Uri: So I just want to give you a taste of the comments that are flowing in as we're live on Facebook, Tom Sharfstein. I could listen to this all day. Excellent. Caitlin SAPs, such an elegant framework, Dr. Rogers, Amy Dickson, Aaron. Wow. So many SLPs could really use and understand these stages. And that is so true.
Uri: This is why I think what you're doing is so important. It's so relatable. It's so humanizing it's so bringing research out of the lab. And into real life, like as humans, I feel like this is something we experienced when you, when you size something up in a sterile lab and you see what fluency technique works, or even things that deal with thoughts and feelings, but it's all in a controlled space.
Uri: This is the real stuff like thinking about developmental maturation and processes, but also these known stages of readiness and how we meet them, where they're at and take that into consideration, I think has been. Missing. And it's going to change the way people look at their own journey and why they're stuck.
Uri: Maybe that's just where they're at. They're in an earlier stage where they're in that kind of Seesaw. I want to do something that I'm not, and then, you know, being kind to self. And also if you're, if you're a side-by-side with someone going through this, this just gives you so much understanding. So I just want you to know how meaningful this work is.
Uri: I'll shut up so you can keep talking all this
NR: stuff. That's really helpful. And I think what you just said, that it helps, um, helps normalize the experience of feeling stuck and the change process. And that's what I really appreciated about this model, this framework, um, because so many people who stutter, um, As with people who are trying to change other target behaviors, like people who are trying to lose weight or eat healthier, or manage anxiety and depression, or manage all sorts of conditions.
NR: It's the same thing. Like there are different. Levels of readiness to like do the hard work. And I think what's really powerful about this framework. The stages of change framework is that it normalizes being in those early stages of readiness. Um, and so what's, what's cool what I'm hoping to do in the future.
NR: And this is kind of Churchill Trisha's legacy.
Uri: I'm going to jump in just one second. You know what people call it when someone's at an earlier stage and they don't realize it's an earlier stage, you know what they call it? The four letter word starts with an L. It should be considered a four letter word, L a Z Y you being lazy, just put yourself into it.
Uri: And that's shaming and it's really just a necessary normal, natural stage. And guess what, if you jump steps, not only is it important to give people the time to move through these stages, but if you try to accelerate someone and they don't get a chance to move through the stage, they're going to pay for it later.
Uri: For most people, for most people, you can't push a river. Right. So, um, just wanted to share how H how profound, not only is it normalizing, but it's also sharing. These are actually important touchstones, important pieces and steps along the way that people have to go through grapple with sit with, and each one of them deserves a supportive person at your side, and certainly being supportive and kind to oneself along the way.
NR: Again. No. That's okay. I think, um, yeah, I think oftentimes these people who aren't, who are feeling stuck, um, are viewed as being lazy or being unmotivated, that it's like a character flaw that they have, that they need to work out on their own. And so often times, if you have a client who stutters that comes to.
NR: Therapy. And they're just not engaging. They're not doing the things that the client or the conscious ask them to do. They're not doing their home practice. They're not, they're just feeling kind of like, like disengaged or appearing disengaged. Um, how often does it happen that the SLP says, you know what?
NR: It doesn't appear that you are very motivated to work on this. So, um, we're going to put our relationship on hold and you come back when you're ready. And that is hugely problematic because then you are telling this person that they need to do all the hard work of getting motivated on their own. How do they do that?
NR: That's really challenging. Um, and so what I hope to do as, as a, as a field, I hope that we can equip clinicians to feel more competent in helping, um, helping clients. Get ready for change, help those people that are in the earlier stages instead of throwing speech tools at them, can we identify where they are use evidence-based activities, practices that are, um, that are stage matched, right?
NR: That are matched those earlier stages to help move a person forward. Um, And so that's where I think the power in this framework really lies that there are actually things that we can do as clinicians to help clients get ready for change. I know that a lot of permissions iOS can ask this question, do not talk some in my classes and stuff that, you know, like we're telling the line of like counseling and psychology and, um, where does our role kind of end?
NR: And like, you know, the next service providers will begin. Um, and so, you know, as, as you know, um, As a guidelines, tell us, you know, like if it's related to communication, It's our role to help help the client in that, in that capacity. Um, and so I think that we, um, as a field and as academics need to do a better job of training clinicians, to feel more competent working with folks who stutter and I'll all people sound just stuttering.
NR: I'm sure that this, this model applies to folks that, um, are learning to use a different type of boys or people that are just aren't free ed voice disorders and all sorts of different types of populations, not just stuttering. So that's my hope.
Uri: You drink from the Iowa waters. I drink from, uh, the waters of Dr.
Uri: Phil, my esteemed father. So counseling is in my blood, but I would just say to your point, on the one hand, we've got to lean into the fact that speech language pathologists need to get comfortable talking about thoughts and feelings around all sorts of communication issues, whether it's a seizure, stuttering, voice, all sorts of things.
Uri: And at the same time, at the same time, you've got to know where the boundaries are. So we had a. Our last, um, office hours guest for the transcending stuttering cohort of speech pathologist. We had Jerry McGuire and I said to him, Jerry, can you give some guidelines of when do you know you're out of bounds?
Uri: When do you know, it's time to make that referral out? And so if you're dealing with something that's looking like depression, or you're looking at something that looking like anxiety, that's a telltale sign that you need to refer out. If you're dealing with the common feelings related to this communication issue.
Uri: And which can include social anxiety and feelings of low self-worth, but they're really focused. And the Genesis of them is rooted in this communication issue. Speech language pathologists may be better equipped because the average psychologist and psychiatrist. No, it was even less as, you know, as much as most people don't know enough about stuttering.
Uri: The mental health profession has a lot to level up as much as we do in our profession and in the world. But we shouldn't assume that if someone's having thoughts and feelings, we should refer them out at the same time. Just know if you're dealing with someone you're trying to help someone, you need to make sure they get the appropriate help that they deserve.
Uri: So I just wanted to add that one. Yeah. We could spend the entire talk and I have no problem on that on the stages of change. It's your call. We're obviously going to have to have around to just drop a like, or a comment. If you want round two with Dr. Rogers. I certainly do, but it's up to you. I'm going to let you know when we decide, you know, do you want to, I know there was another piece that you wanted to share with us, so really it's up to you, how you want to,
NR: you can just ride this wave.
NR: I think it resonates with people.
Uri: People are resonating. All right. Yeah. Ride the wave.
NR: Um, so that what we could do, um, is I can share some preliminary results of, um, the newest research study that, uh, Dr. Hope Gerlach. And I just did, so, so just a segue here. So Trisha's Nebraska established this project with adolescents who stuttered because she found that adolescents tend to be the most resistant to therapy.
NR: Um, so we, we did that project and we, we did all these assessments and we said, okay, We've found that yeah, the, the five stages of change really does apply to the change process for adolescents. Um, so Tricia retired and then hope Gerlach. And I who's at Western Michigan university decided that we need to carry this project forward.
NR: It's like, let's try to build, um, A developmental model of what the stages of change looks like across, across the lifespan. So we decided to go into adulthood. So we, um, the first step of applying this fire stage framework to a new population is to interview lots of stakeholders, um, who are a part of, um, That process.
NR: So we interviewed stuttering specialists, um, including some folks who started themselves and then also adults who starter that had been in therapy and have made successful changes to their stuttering or their starting experience. We interviewed a lot of people and we qualitatively analyze their data.
NR: And so I thought, you know, so just the main question that we asked was what would an adult who stutters be doing. If they were making a positive change to their stuttering. And so we've really focused on the behaviors, right? Cause we, as SLPs were behavioral therapists and we try to help people acquire new skills.
NR: So that was our focus. What are the specific behaviors that folks would be doing? They were making positive changes. Um, and so we. Gotcha. So incredible data. And, um, but we were able to boil it down to some themes, as I thought that I would share this with you and then we can kind of have a discussion about them.
Uri: I wish was here. If Eric Raj is here, I'm just asking for like a drum roll, please, because I know everyone's on the edge of their seats to hear. What did you learn? What were some of those preliminary findings?
NR: Yeah. Okay. So we have like, high-level themes that I'll talk about first. So high-level themes.
NR: There are three of them. So the first one is, and I'm going to read the, you just like get them right. Um, noticing and adjusting physical behaviors involved in speaking to the extent that it is personally. So, um, the second theme is developing neutral or positive thoughts and feelings about stuttering.
NR: And the third one is participating more fully in social and professional activities. Even if you stutter or think you might stutter. So we have some qualifiers there. So the first theme, so it's the idea of noticing and adjusting speech to make easier on the speaker. And so I think that, um, hope Gerlach and I are really trying to focus in on what works for the speaker.
NR: We want the speaker to feel better and more at ease with their own communication. It's less about what. The listener receives. Right? So Ken, is it personally important for the speaker to notice and adjust how they're talking to make talking easier? Um, a couple of things, a couple of like somethings that came along with this, it's important to develop some per, per preliminary skills for changing behaviors.
NR: So this might be things like learning about the speech mechanism, increasing behavioral awareness, um, increasing choices about how to adjust norms, just moments of stuttering. Um, this also involves changing communication in real time interactions. So this might be decreasing tension or decreasing mental effort when speaking, um, reducing escape behaviors and stuff like that.
NR: How do you actually modify those, those moments talking? Um, and then. A critical step is generalizing those behaviors outside the therapy room. Right? So health coaching outside the therapy setting, um, using a linguistic and a fear hierarchy to practice these new skills in a scaffolded way. So that was the first name and like the specific behaviors that go along with that.
NR: The, um, I'm going to keep going, cause you're nodding along here. Okay. Okay. The
Uri: second theme, echo what Tom said. Yeah, I could listen to all day long. It was an honor and a privilege to have that interview with you a year ago. And I was so eager to hear, you know, what, uh, what else you learned? So, yeah, this is delicious.
Uri: So
NR: second theme is developing neutral or positive thoughts and feelings about stuttering. So a couple of specific behaviors here. So it's really important for clients to expand their definition of what success. Means so not focusing on fluency, but what other things can we be working towards that would indicate success along with that?
NR: Um, Talking about stuttering, more neutrally, sexually looking at the language that a client is using to talk about the stuttering experience. And also noticing when change occurs in small steps. I think oftentimes people who stutter kind of expect, I'm gonna go to therapy, I'm gonna make these huge life changes and things are gonna like make a total one 80.
NR: That's not how the change process works. We know that change happens incrementally and in small steps. So that's really important to you to help clients focus on noticing those small steps of change. Um, another big thing was being open to difficult experiences. So it's important to help the client become okay with the hard parts of stuttering, including how variable it is.
NR: That's a huge theme for people who stutter. It's really challenging to not never know what stuttering is going to be like. Um, and just being open to talking about the experience, um, it's, it's okay to feel fear and shame. That's totally. Okay. And it has to, um, it's helpful when the client is, is okay to explore what those feelings are like.
NR: Um, another big thing was feeling more relaxed in moments of stuttering. So working on desensitization and developing adaptive responses to anticipation. So when a person anticipate stuttering, are they able to still approach that feared? Word or that feared interaction in an adaptive way. Um, and also remaining less after a moment of stuttering occur is like, we know that stuttering is going to happen.
NR: We're going to get negative listener reactions. Um, but as the person able to, to get back up and kind of keep moving forward and ruminate less, um, Another big one was, um, understanding how stuttering fits into one's identity. So, um, a lot of adults who stood out in particular talked about the importance of focusing on other parts of themselves, outside of the stuttering.
NR: So focusing in other hobbies values like other identities to kind of take the spotlight off of stuttering and just, um, make it, um, really honor the fact that they are this really complex tapestry that's made up of many identities. Um, And then working towards reducing.
Uri: How many more have you got then I want to give you a chance to bring something down to like, to the, to the playing field for the people that are listening.
Uri: Okay.
NR: For sure. I can stop there. I can talk
Uri: about the system highlights. I just don't know if there's another 20 good. It's each one of these. And I also hope someone's writing this down. I did post that I would love everyone's help for this conversation and every conversation. Catch that highlight that takeaway, that thing that resonated for you.
Uri: And if you would send it to us with the timestamp of when it happened, we will take the best. And we will try to re share those in small bites, but Naomi just shared like, 40 gems. So I hope someone's writing it down cause we're going to transcribe this afterwards, but we could use your help. So yeah.
Uri: Naomi
NR: please. Yeah, let me just talk about the highlights of our, of our last third theme. And this is I'm really just offering these for SLPs that are listening that are like looking for like specific behaviors that they can focus on. And there'll be that are not focused on fluency. There are lots of other things that we can be doing here.
NR: Um, so our last big theme was participating more fully in social and professional activities. Even if you stutter or think you might stutter. So this includes things like talking more openly about stuttering, um, saying more, um, um, more of what you want to say. Um, prioritizing social connection. Over stuttering, um, increasing one's agency in the moment.
NR: And so those are just, yeah, and we have like specific activities and behaviors that kind of fall into all of those, those categories there. But those are just some, some ideas for like specific behaviors that we can offer to clients as either alternatives or additions to any of those speech changes that they want to make as well.
Uri: Wow. Wow.
NR: Yeah. Well, thank you to you. And like the other like stuttering specialist and all the adults who said, or that participated, cause it was such a complex question and analysis process and there was just so, so much. Goodness. And so I think that, um, the, this must be really, really impactful to help, um, SLPs.
NR: Who worked with people who started, but also those generalist SLPs that we often encounter that don't quite know how to work in anything other than stuttering and how, how, how to prioritize those other, other skills that lead to effective communication as well,
Uri: mind blown. Well, it was, I remember that conversation with you, Naomi, and I, I don't know what you remember from it, but what I remember, I was like, we are very lucky.
Uri: To have someone like you running this show because you, the way you guided the questions and I'm sure it was with Hope's input and Trisha's contributions and whatnot. So it's not a one, uh, it's not a solo project, but I was just so grateful because you took a very touchy, feely and kind of narrative qualitative thing, and you really were starting to drill it in using very sharp thinking and good ways of framing things.
Uri: So just I'm grateful you're doing that. Two things that hit me. And then maybe just to take a chance and bring it back to the personal or to the individual from your insight from others. I would say number one, what's fascinating about what you said that hits me. And this is something I got from Chris and Carmella.
Uri: I often refer to this as one of the most impactful, and I think it was. One of the 2006. I'm not mistaken in Miami, Asher pre-conference with, with her and Jeff Brown was also on the slate, but, uh, she talked about the heuristics. Uh problem-solving and so what's beautiful about what Naomi's offering. And I do this all the time when I meet people.
Uri: Instead of problem solving like a whack-a-mole of like, what's the problem in front of you. If these are the outcomes that a person who is in a good place in a strong state, if these are the things that we would wish or say, that's good, like, that's, that's a good outcome right there. That's what a good outcome looks like.
Uri: It would be cool because it shifts everything. Instead of at the beginning of the journey, fixing every problem that comes up, you use these as your navigational intelligence to say, that's where we want to get to what choice. Another thing I loved about the interview on the stutter talk. If anyone didn't hear it, stutter talk now.
Uri: And we had a beautiful conversation, um, back in 2018 from the NSA conference. And, um, what was amazing was she talked about like a, choose your own adventure. And I don't remember name, if you remember, that's exactly how I described the transcending stuttering framework is a choose your own adventure because different people, different stages, different things are important, but.
Uri: Keeping the eye on the prize and kind of working backwards instead of looking at the today and figuring out how do we fix today? Where do we want to be five years from now, three years from now, a year a month from now, and having that as your, as your goal and every decision along the way to figure out is that going to bring me there?
Uri: That's one thought the second thought is it all these things that Amy just shared, I would say layer on, which is talking about stages of change. And this is something I was really absorbing from Michael Sugarman. The idea of, of layering experiences and like, you know, the sequence of experiences that could be helpful.
Uri: So the idea of individual engagement with a professional engagement in group therapy, peer to peer support, mentor, peer support, the idea of self-help, um, support and how each of those have, it's not either or, but for different people, how you sequence it or how you layer it can make all the difference.
Uri: Well, I want it to do is make it personal. Naomi, from your experience, being a person who's gone through growing up with a stutter and look at you today. Um, you know, and, and knowing what, you know, from the field, what are some of the most egregious things that happen that can derail these outcomes? In other words, what are like practical examples of well-meaning episodes that just completely missed the Mark on getting these sort of outcomes.
Uri: And on the other hand, what were some things that either you experienced, or maybe you observed that just so speak to this, and I know there was something you shared in that podcast that stuck with me about what the therapist didn't do. That was helpful in regards to this, I was just wondering, like, what are some common mistakes that are well-intended best intentions, but just really don't get people to a strong place, these kinds of outcomes.
Uri: And then on the other hand, what are some examples of really hitting the Mark with this? And maybe we can wrap on that.
NR: Yeah. So, um, I'll just kind of highlight what I mentioned earlier. I think that a lot of clinicians have this fallacy where if we help reduce the stuttering, then the positive thoughts and feelings will follow.
NR: Um, and that is just not the case. We know that people who, who who've been stuttering for a while are going to stutter for the rest of their lives. And. The way to improve communication, improve social connection, improve participation, and engagement, and all areas of their life are not telling them to think about changing, how they talk all the time.
NR: That is going to interfere with their, a times to fully engage with their communication partners. So taking the focus off of foods. The, are there other things that we can focus on to bolster your ability to communicate effectively and to truly connect with those people that you're talking to, to advocate for yourself, to allow people to talk with greater ease and greater spontaneity, because we know from the work of Chris Constantino, Vivi, it's a skin and so many others that that is really, um, for a lot of people.
NR: That's the key to, to living well with stuttering is just. Taking the focus off the stuttering and getting back into their bodies and getting back into the interaction. Um, just as typically fluent speakers are afforded every single every single day. Um,
Uri: do you know what I'm referring to from that, from that episode?
Uri: Because I think that was so powerful because I think one of the, one of the principles that I share with therapists and I remind myself as a parent, as a very imperfect parent, but for kids, um, Sometimes you don't achieve more by doing more, you achieve more by doing less, you can't just keep adding and adding.
Uri: I actually heard this on a Tim Ferriss podcast and it really stuck with me that sometimes you don't grow with the power of addition, you actually have to strip back and pull back and create space for things. Yeah, other things, and it could be space for time to play out space for whatever, but there was something would you like to share?
Uri: Just like what a striking way that sometimes the therapist doing less can be exactly what the doctor orders.
NR: Yeah. So, um, my, I had some not helpful experiences with therapy as a young child, but when, um, my life really turned around was when I was about to start high school and started working with the private speech pathologist who, who really understood the experience of staggering from the inside out.
NR: And I remember, I mean, I don't really remember, and this is a quote, I forgot exactly how it goes, but there's a quote that goes, you know, you'll never. People will forget what you said, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. Right. And that applies to my experiences in high school. And I was working with this private SLP who I don't remember exactly what she said.
NR: I just remember, um, every week I w I w I would go to her office and just, I felt, um, this, this openness in that room where I could really say and be. Whatever was on my mind. And there was no pressure to be somebody that I wasn't. It was really the identifying, like who I am in my core. How can that co-exists with stuttering?
NR: Um, and just letting me kind of, yeah, just, uh, I was like able to breathe for the first time when I was working with this clinician, I would just spend lots of time just like crying and unloading and just processing. With the first person that really understood what the experience was like. And that was that like really turned my life around.
NR: Um, and so a lot of, a lot of SLPs that we interviewed for our research project, we talked about the importance of not adding things into the mix for clients, but the importance of taking things away. Right. Um, and so it's, as often uses the analogy of an onion, how can we peel back the layers, um, that have accumulated over years and years and years of experience and stuttering and get to that core of what the stuttering is really about and help the person like learn about, about that at the core.
Uri: Yeah, there's a fascinating thing about onions. Do you know what's unique about onions almost unlike any other fruit or vegetable? I won't hold you on the riddle. Well, listen, Ian, an orange, you got to peel off the peel and then you eat the fruit on the inside. If you eat a peach, she eat the fruit on the outside and the pit is on the inside.
Uri: There's I can't, this is true. Maybe for cabbages as well, but an onion. On the one hand, the appeal is appeal that conceals the next level that you want to get to the heart of the onion, the sweetheart of the onion, but it is the vegetable in and of itself. It's also the peel. It's got that duality. And at the same time, you know, you want to go further and you kind of ride that.
Uri: Whereas in every other thing, you kind of like, all right, get this peel out of here. I want to get to the fruit or let me eat the fruit and throw out the pit. But I think it goes with stages of change. And I think seeing every step and it's about the process, it's about the journey. It's not about the destination.
Uri: The destination gives you like a direction and helps you have that vision and aspiration. But it's really about the journey. It's about enjoying every piece as the onion has another appeal. Um, there's so many thoughts that come to mind, but I just want to share. When you shared that story in that podcast, it reminded me of someone who will be joining me for my next workshop.
Uri: I strongly believe that when we give workshops as professionals, especially those of us, they don't stutter. Um, having people who stutter share their stories and being part of those educational experiences critical because it's not about the content it's about the people. That's the way therapy should work.
Uri: That's the way learning should work. So this young lady Devorah who posted her autobiographical journey on our blog, she came to me and she kept saying the words, tell me how to stop stuttering. But most of the time she just spent tearing up and sobbing. And probably the worst thing I could have done was serve up exactly what she was asking me for explicitly, but hanging in there.
Uri: And she talks about how. Brutal. It was an awkward, it was for a teenage girl to be sitting in therapy and wanting to come back, but just to have the space to be respected, to have that stage respected. And when she was ready, she picked up the phone and today she can't stop talking. And she can't stop harassing me.
Uri: When can I speak again? When can I talk to some therapist? When can I talk to people who stutter? And so just the idea that everybody has the blossom in their own time, respecting the stages, and there's so much good work to follow. So if people want to follow your work and help you, do you want to just share?
Uri: I know you're looking for adults. Maybe I do want to leave that out. So maybe just share that. And how people can follow your great stuff, whether it's on social or email or whatever you want to share. Yeah.
NR: So, um, we are still looking for adults who started to help us, um, finalize this, um, like these questionnaires that can help us understand how to actually say.
NR: Stage adults who starter in these five stages of change. We have heard from lots of people that are in that last stage of maintenance. We've heard from lots of people that have already worked through the journey and to have been working, to solidify those changes. Um, and, uh, so we are specifically interested in, in hearing from folks who are perhaps.
NR: Earlier in the change journey. So these are maybe people that haven't had any speech therapy or just at the beginning stages of speech therapy where things are still new, um, are still new to them. Um, and we would just love to hear from, from all people who stutters so that we can have with them as a representative sample where we can say yes, there are people like.
NR: The state has do apply. And we know what it's like for people who stutter in all five of these stages. Cause right now we can only really talk about the last stage of maintenance that's where all of the participants are. So it just, um, I will provide my contact info to reach out for the survey link. It just is a 20 minute research survey.
NR: Um, and you can, um, yeah. Enter a drawing for, we have a whole bunch of Amazon gift cards to get that as a thank you for participating and for sharing their perspective.
Uri: Depending on what stage of change you're up to the Amazon gift card might just be exactly what you needed and for others it's unnecessary.
Uri: But yeah, you know, if you're a person who stutters or, you know, an adult who stutters, uh, this work is so important. So I just encourage you to share and spread the word and just give people the invitation that it's a low exposure, but could really contribute to this very important groundbreaking work.
Uri: And you might get a gift card. So like, Hey. Low low barrier of entry, even if you have some resistance, think about winning that gift card. Um, this has been awesome. It has been awesome. Any parting wisdom now that you gave the pitch for the research project? Is there just like one thing you'd wish to impart to anyone who stutters or to parents, educators, speech, language pathologists, like just like one kernel of wisdom from among your entire cornfield.
NR: I would say, I would say like, in my mind with all the stages workers that it's really okay to not be ready, that is such a normal process. Um, and place to be in the change journey. We know that living with stuttering is, um, it's a lifelong commitment, a lifelong experience, and it is okay to not be ready today.
NR: If you've made changes, it's okay to not be ready on the other side of that too. We cycle through these changes and that's totally normal. And so, um, Just, um, as difficult as it is accepting. Yeah.