BIO

Robyn Croft is a Ph.D. student and a speech-language pathologist at the Lang Stuttering Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, where she works with children and adults who stutter. During her undergraduate tenure, Robyn studied abroad in Jerusalem, where she was able to blend her passions for Israel and speech-language pathology through an internship at Schneider Speech. After attending Texas Christian University for her master's degree, Robyn returned to UT-Austin to complete her clinical fellowship and to begin her doctoral studies under the mentorship of Dr. Courtney Byrd. Now, Robyn's clinical and research interests include the cognitive and affective components of stuttering, as well as the clinician-client alliance in stuttering treatment. In her free time, Robyn enjoys exploring the outdoors, learning to play the ukulele, and finding the best tacos in Austin.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

RESOURCE LIST

Robyn Croft Research

Dream. Speak. Live. at Moody College of Communication at University of Texas at Austin

Arthur M. Blank Center for Stuttering Education and Research

Transcending Stuttering Academy 

Upcoming events

MORE QUOTES

“I didn't know anything about stuttering, but once I started learning from Dr. Byrd, I was just hooked and I knew I had found something really special that I want to do for the rest of my life.” - Robyn Craft

"We found that when the person who stutters self-discloses in an informative manner only, they were viewed as being significantly more confident, more friendly, more intelligent, more outgoing. These are all traits that are in direct contrast to the stuttering, a stereotype that people who set or are shy, nervous, and insecure, right? When a person's self discloses, they're viewed as having more of the traits that are in complete contrast to those other misconceptions.” - Robyn Craft

TRANSCRIPTION:

uri: So I do the intro. You can. Wow. There we are. So the big question this morning, Robin, is it, is it Hey y'all or is it howdy? Cause, cause I can't seem to get it straight.

robyn: Well, it kind of just depends on what kind of vibe you're going for. I would say howdy. Y'all Ziff. You're talking to a good group of friends in this case.

robyn: I think how do y'all is, is fitting, um, otherwise, Hey y'all is.

uri: How do y'all. How do y'all good morning. Good morning. Well, listen, there are, there are people that have, uh, their name is like all over all kinds of textbooks and they've given, you know, 4,000 workshops and I've had the privilege to pick their brain, but there is something special about this lady.

uri: So just to introduce myself or each Snyder lead here at Schneider speech, we've been. Really learning a lot and enjoying sharing these conversations. Uh, something that a lot of people don't know is that these conversations are not only live and you can see them live and you can drop comments. And I try to incorporate that with our guests, but you can also catch it on the playback.

uri: So we kind of chop them up and take some good notes. If we can. We put those on social media, but you can go to our website, Schneider speech.com/our blog. You could see all these videos for playback and particular, uh, the conversation on Sunday with Braden Harrington and Jonathan Castello and Eliezer.

uri: Abraham's three young guys who stutter talking and reflecting about what it means to them to have Joe Biden, a person who stutters kind of ascend to become president. Uh, it was an unbelievable conversation. The thing blew up, it's got 4,000 views and counting and just a few days. Um, I have no doubt this one is going to be blowing up as well, but, uh, you can see it yourself@schneiderspeech.com slash our blog.

uri: I also, and I'll say why I'm saying this afterwards, but if there are any students out there or anybody out there who's interested in helping us not only enjoy and be enriched by these conversations, but if anyone wants to help us come up with like a highlight reel. So if you're listening to these conversations and you're like, Oh, that was awesome.

uri: You know, that should be a post or that should be on the highlight reel. At the end of the 2020, we would love your help. So feel free to reach out to us through the website. And if it's a one-off thing, like you heard one, and you could just tell us which number it was. And at what moment you enjoyed what was said, we can try to chop that up and come up with a nice highlight reel, or if you want to become more involved, more significantly as an intern or something like that.

uri: And without further ado, Let's move into today's conversation. So we have a very busy person who up very early in Texas in Austin. Let me, let me tell you something. You know, if I was in a blackout in New York city, like I was, uh, my wife and I, you know, there are certain people you gotta be with. I wanted to be with my wife, but if I had to be with someone in addition to my wife and kids, I would hope Robin would be around.

uri: And the reason is this young woman. Has enough energy and electric soulfulness to light up the block. Okay. So the only question I have for today's conversation is what do you eat for breakfast? What keeps you going,

robyn: Laurie? I feel like I could ask you the same, the same question. You are always lifting other people up.

robyn: But you have that you have that electric energy. So I would like to know what you eat for breakfast. Ironically, I don't really eat breakfast. I'm more of like a coffee kind of person. I've got it right here. Um, drink a lot of coffee and then, you know, I eat more like brunch. I'm a snacker. So I'll eat throughout the day.

robyn: If I'm answering the question, literally.

uri: Yeah, no, that's amazing. I guess you have to like, yeah, you're busy doing yoga and, and all kinds of stuff too busy to eat, I guess. But the answer to your question is they call me shake masters Snyder. Um, I've lately gotten into the shakes. And if you slip in, you know, some chia seeds and some crushed flax, amazing things happen, I'm not sure if everybody has the same response to those things, but it's, uh, gets me going.

uri: I think, you know, Robin, to your point when you're around other people light up, so you think I have such energy it's because when you're in that orbit, you create that. And I definitely can share with that. I was talking about that conversation with those three young guys. I was just so happy to be there.

uri: I said, I'm like, uh, I'm happy to be like a helium balloon tank and put helium in other people's balloons at times. Blow my own balloon as well and receive from others as well, but a hundred percent lifting people up. This is what it's all about. Um, Robin is far. Uh, more accomplished and further along than you might know, she's a PhD candidate at university of Texas.

uri: This with, uh, our good friend and mentor, uh, dr. Courtney bird, there's some big news coming out from there, which we'll get to hear about. Uh, we had the privilege started with Taylor. Sweezey big shout out to Taylor. She was our first intern when she was in New York city from Texas, and we had this amazing internship experience together.

uri: And then I got these emails from a person named Robin Croft and somehow embarrassingly. So I think we actually did respond that there just wasn't an opportunity, but there's Robyn cross. She was persistent and persistence pays. I think, as students, you should know that I think as professionals, when you're looking for support or health, and if you're a person who's going through any kind of challenge, No that, you know, you knock, once you knock again, you keep knocking eventually doors open.

uri: So, uh, so Robin was great about being persistent and what it culminated in was an amazing opportunity while she was, uh, studying abroad in Israel. We'll talk about that. I was there as well, and we were able to do a remarkable project together research together, and then we had the privilege to go to the NSA in Atlanta and present that together with.

uri: Good friend, Andrew Carlin's who's also, uh, had a conversation with us with his mom, check that one out, but, uh, Robin is amazing and she came in as someone, I think you were still before grad school, is that right?

robyn: Yes.

uri: Yeah. We were like already out the door with your post-doc. Um, Robin's amazing. And, and, and the spirit and the spunk and the youthfulness should not disguise or somehow, um, Not allow people to really see one smart lady.

uri: And she's really doing amazing things, both, uh, in real life touching people's lives, but also in contributing to the literature and the research. So I'm just so excited. You're here. You were the recipient of this year's NSA award research recipient award, uh, as a monetary award for your research going forward.

uri: So maybe we'll hear about that, but it's just great to see you.

robyn: Thank you Ori. It's really just such an honor to, to be here. And, um, I am so grateful. Really. That's all I can really say. I'm so grateful for everything. That's led me here for being connected with you, but you answered my. 15th a hundred and 15th email.

robyn: I'm just kidding. It wasn't that many. You definitely do. We'll get back to me, but like

uri: 97,

robyn: no, around, around 96. Yeah. No, I I'm just really grateful, honestly. That's, that's all I can really say. And every, um, opportunity that I've had along the way is really, uh, a reflection of the people who have invested in me and.

robyn: Taking the time to give me a chance and I'm definitely still learning. So I'm at the very beginning, I'd say, and look, I look out at the world and to see how much more I have to learn. Um, so it's an honor to look at you.

uri: Look, look at us.

robyn: Look at that.

uri: Just getting started. It's fantastic. Paul Rudd reference, um, That's awesome.

uri: Awesome. Um, what would you, what would you share? Cause by the time we met, you were kind of already interested in stuttering, is that right?

robyn: Yes.

uri: So what is a nice Robin crops growing up in Texas? You got lots of things going for you. How do you end up spending so much time emailing this Schneider guy about stuttering and your passion to get experience, you know, in that space?

uri: What, what brought you to get lead up with that?

robyn: Yeah, let me see if I can say it can concisely, um, grew up in, uh, Houston, Texas went to UT Austin for my, uh bachelor's and I didn't know that I wanted to study speech language pathology. I came in as many freshmen do. Yeah, there we go. There we go. I think this is like rock I'm and this is like hugging horns.

robyn: Very similar in New York,

uri: in New York, we don't do any of those. I think this is like West coast and then there's like Tupac, Tupac. And then, and then you guys do the horns, but it's not this it's,

robyn: the thumb has to be on the middle two fingers. Yeah. It takes a little bit of practice. I've had many years growing up in Texas, but yeah, I actually switched my major a few times started as a social work major, then psychology, both of which I've, um, Come back to for like interdisciplinary work and psychology.

robyn: I find to be essential to my research and I love digging into that area. Um, but once I settled on a speech language pathology, I was like, this is it. This is what I want to do. Um, And I started looking for opportunities to do research when I was a sophomore similar to when I was eating, uh, uh, emailing you.

robyn: I sent every professor in the department at UT and email asking, can I do research with you? And it's kind of like that book. Are you my, my mother where everyone just says no, and you just keep on going. So everyone said, no, um,

uri: I just was talking about as smart you are, but if you think I look like your mother, that was clearly part of the evolution.

uri: No, I'm not your mother, but yeah. Turning and looking for where you're going to get that mentorship. Who's going to open a door for you and how are you going to become

robyn: a little bit more

uri: in multi-faceted through another opportunity? That's awesome.

robyn: Absolutely. And ultimately, Courtney bird. I was the only one who responded and said yes, which looking back is just the biggest gift of all time.

robyn: Um, I feel just like that was fate and I was so grateful also.

uri: It's also a gift I'll just mention, and I don't mean, I mean, I have the utmost respect and admiration for Courtney, but yeah, you got an email response. That's not so easy these days. She's very busy.

robyn: Email is a very hard thing. I feel for every important busy person who has to keep up with their email.

robyn: I don't know how anyone does it. Um, and since then, we've really grown like tremendously. So nowadays you wouldn't be able to secure a research assistant position through email, but it was, it was back then it was back in the day. So that's what kind of got me into, you know, stuttering. I didn't know anything about stuttering.

robyn: Before, but once I started learning from dr. Bird, um, I was just hooked and I knew I had found something really special that I want to do for the rest of my life. Then comes junior year where studying in Israel was. A goal of mine. I had gone to Israel when I was 18 and again, felt a very immediate connection and knew that I wanted to somehow blend my passions for Israel and for my profession.

robyn: And so. On paper or going to Israel, didn't really align with my degree plan. There weren't specific courses that fit into what I needed in order to graduate. But I just, I knew that I needed to go and somehow make it fit. And that's when I started researching, I literally Googled stuttering Israel and what pops up.

robyn: Um, I, uh, Schneider speech and I knew that there were some multiple, uh, low. Uh, locations of your practice. Um, and that's when I started sending you emails and I thought, Oh my gosh, here, we have bilingual bicultural therapy for stuttering. And it's in Israel where I'll be for a few months. This is also just the stars aligning.

robyn: And then after, um, I started as an intern, we made it into this, uh, you know, independent study research project, which was phenomenal, such a great learning. Um, then I actually got to know you. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I've stumbled upon this amazing mentor. And so it turned out to be this really rich, um, ex experience that I couldn't have penciled in to my plan, because I didn't know that it existed, but it was just all of those little steps leading up to it.

robyn: Um, and yeah, there's, there's

uri: that Yiddish, there's that Yiddish saying? They say down in Texas, right? Man plans. God laughs.

robyn: Right. You've got to

uri: be, you've got to be open-minded. You've got to see opportunity when it knocks and, and when a fork in the road, when you get to a fork in the road, take it, you know, um, get a little bit out of your comfort zone.

uri: Great things happen. But yeah, so it w it really didn't add up or make sense, but we a week, I mean, mutually, it was so beneficial. You were, you were one of. Many outstanding. I don't want to put you in any place other than others, but you do have a very special way of blending. Uh, and I think for a clinician and for a researcher, something that's unique about Courtney, and I think it's unique about you and many other great people.

uri: The ability to be a fantastic, uh, researchers, scientists being methodical, following scientific methodology, um, and having a real good head on your shoulders. And at the same time, having a heart. That is open, that cares, that can see other people sensitive and can kind of do what's needed to step up and be there for other people.

uri: Not everybody blends those two sides. Some people are strong wanting inept at the other, and that's good, you know, but there are very few like you that really bring it together. So I'm so grateful, you know, that we connected and what you contributed to that project was. Tremendous. Do you remember when we went to maybe share a highlight or two from that interview process and you did the lit review, that was your part.

uri: And then Andrew did the interviews. What was something you remember from that stage? And then maybe we can jump ahead to that preparation and Atlanta, which maybe was your first professional presentation.

robyn: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well from our first meeting, uh, I just remember. That just like you're saying how important it is to blend their research with the heart and the mind with a heart.

robyn: I had seen that through dr. Bird and I remember, and what you were saying and how important it is to connect with your clients and to relate to them and to meet them where they are. I think that coming. Um, I just, I had never been outside of my Institute bubble. Um, and I was just amazed to hear that you shared a similar philosophy in that sense.

robyn: And from that point forward, we met, um, I think weekly. And, and you would kind of update me on clients that you had seen and share different stories and treatment dilemmas, which was so critical. I was a junior undergrad. And to have that kind of. You know, uh, clinical insight was really formative and it, and it showed me the different routes that treatment could take.

robyn: And then at the same time I was working on this, you know, literature, uh, re review on best practice and stuttering treatment and really broadening my understanding of what approaches there are. And this idea of best practice is really more complicated than it sounds. And that was one of actually my first, I did an undergraduate research project with dr.

robyn: Bird, which was also really enriching and really laid the foundation for a lot of the projects that I've done since then. Um, and. Israel though when I was there, that was also one of the first research, um, opportunities that I had to kind of dive in, read through the, you know, literature. And I think before that, Pre college Robin would have heard the word research and thought, Oh, I don't know.

robyn: I don't know if that's for me. I don't know if I can do that. I'm not sure if I'm interested in that, but in researching best practice in, you know, in, uh, treatment I I've found, Oh my God, this is fascinating. I could. Read about this all day. I could talk about this all day. Um, and I would say that was one of the critical opportunities that led to me pursuing the path that I'm in now, because until you do it, you don't know if it's something that you enjoy doing.

robyn: And through the internship, through that study, I had the opportunity to at least try and turns out. I mean, I, I loved it and I learned a lot. And then you introduced me to Andrew, who I believe at the time was what 16. 17. Yeah.

uri: He's like a man, like a man child. I think he was in his junior year, in high school.

robyn: He is just this incredible wise. So brilliant personable person. And I'm like, who is this kid who is doing this entire research project? And I was just happy to be a part of it. Um, but yes, having the opportunity to connect with him and then with all three of us in Atlanta, Georgia for the conference, I mean, Never could have, uh, forcing that.

robyn: But yeah, that was my first oral presentation at a, at a conference.

uri: I remember before going on stage. You were there. Andrew was there. My dad was there. I was there, we were in some space where we were kind of like cramming. And I think y'all had your, your, your, you know, your sheets and your notes. And, and I just was like, is it going to be great?

uri: Just lean in, you know, and, and everybody, you and Andrew and I doing the typical pre pre-game ritual. And that's also interesting by the way, just as an aside, when you look at temperament. So like, as therapists, when we look at people that come in. For help. It's so important to see, does this person, in addition to looking for help in let's say stuttering or fitness or learning a new sport, are they kind of like reactive or they're kind of like loose and easy going?

uri: And so I think the way different people cope is so interesting seeing people in different situations. So for me, I just, I just talk myself through it and I'm like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. Other people like hyper prepare, they're really vigilant. They want to like, over-prepare, it's very telling isn't it of like coping and also temperament, which is important in living life and also helping others.

uri: Um, just an observation, but a great memory. Yeah. So what was your memory of that in Atlanta? What was that like for you?

robyn: Yes. It's so funny to hear you talk about how people react to different types of stress, because that kind of energy that you brought was really helpful for me, who I think otherwise probably would have been over-preparing to the max.

robyn: You know, we all have our challenging areas and presenting, I think is very hard. Um, just, I don't know. So it, it was, um, Really helpful for me to see that modeled, to see, okay, this can be important to me and I can want to do well, and I can approach it. And the, in a grounded, calm, confident way. I remember Humean Andrew.

robyn: We were kind of practicing, just running through it beforehand. And I was trying to like, deliver what I had written and like a very. Precise way. And you're like, Robin, as long as you say every word with purpose, you're going to be fine. It's it's going to be great. And I thought, you know what, let me give that a try.

robyn: And so I tried it and you're like coaching me through it. And by the end, I really did feel a lot better. There's something really empowering about realizing it's it's what you say. That comes authentically. And that's something that dr. Bird has coached me through too. It's something that's I think, going to take a lifetime to work on in that setting.

robyn: Um, but that was definitely step one. And, and seeing that modeled was really helpful during the actual presentation, I definitely like blacked out, um, and kind of, you know, I, um, I couldn't tell you specifics about what I said or how it went, but I do remember feeling relieved afterwards and feeling grateful for the opportunity.

uri: If you're watching, just to bring you up to speed. So Robin and I are just talking about, uh, the stage where she was, uh, still starting off and, uh, before she launched into her. Early stage stage one launch, which she is deep into, she's almost in, in orbit. Um, but back then, she was really just getting started at the launch pad and we had this opportunity to connect and we did this amazing project and she was extraordinarily.

uri: Superior to what most people, our age would be able to do. And we've teamed up with Andrew's another outstanding young man. And then that just makes it easier for me. But, uh, we're just reflecting on this research study we did when Robin was an intern and the presentation we did. Um, if you can give comments, drop questions, likes shares.

uri: You will help this conversation reach more people that probably would like to hear it. So we thank you for that. Um, and again, the playback, if you missed anything we'll be available. So I think a lot of people don't know that it's available. We always put it up afterwards on Schneider speech.com/our blog.

uri: So you just go to our homepage, click on the blog and you can just search and see all the past 30 something conversations. Robin you, you know, awesome. Let's, let's bring it, bring it forward a little bit. So then like where things go from there. Cause I know you had a couple of decisions to make in terms of grad school and then after grad school.

uri: And obviously you keep coming back to UT Austin and dr. Bird and stuttering. So, you know, what's kept you coming back and what are you, what are you deepen

robyn: these days? Yeah. So I think that in terms of, you know, stuttering, I knew that I was interested in it. Definitely personally, I had the opportunity to work with a couple of clients when I was a junior and a senior, which I think that, that exposure through the, um, Institute and through getting clinical experience at that age is really important.

robyn: Um, and laying the foundation and yes,

uri: For those that don't know. I see some people asking, what are we talking about? Who's dr. Bird, what's the Institute, you know, maybe just to give us a little bit of context for those that don't know. And also obviously the recent news is pretty significant, too.

robyn: Yeah. So the Lang stuttering Institute is a non-profit within UT uh, Austin.

robyn: Um, dr. Courtney bird is the founding director. She's a professor at UT. She is a speech language pathologist, graduate advisor. Um, and the Institute provides free treatment to children who stutter adults who, uh, uh, stutter as well and education to their families. We have group therapy, individual therapy based in Austin.

robyn: Um, that's the synopsis we're focused on overall communication, uh, uh, effectiveness and more recently, um, Dr. Bird security, um, 20 million grants through the Arthur blank foundation.

uri: I think I blanked out there. How blanked out? How, how much was that? What

robyn: was that? It's a $20 million grant, which I know has been a work in progress and will really just allow us to expand what we offered to, um, Multiple States, multiple countries over the next 10 years or so.

robyn: Um, and just allow us to serve more people. And we're really excited, really thrilled. And, um, just looking forward to all of that to come. But dr. Bird is also my, uh, PhD mentor. I've known her since I was a sophomore and has, um, Been pretty central, I'd say to my journey. And she's the executive founding director of the new blink center for, uh, centering education and research.

uri: Now you, you have wonderful parents obviously, cause someone like you doesn't just fall out of nowhere, but as going back to your book analogy, you know, are you my mother? I think bird is more likely to be that person than me, but she certainly. For you. And so many people have been such a meaningful mentor in terms of giving so much of herself and steering people in a certain direction and putting wind under their wings.

uri: So, you know, kudos and shout out to Courtney. Uh, for those that don't know, coordinate created a camp, a lot of, uh, colleges have these camps for young people who stutter, um, To be fair. I think it's more like a therapeutic experience. That's fun. And in the summer, I think camp just sounds a heck of a lot better.

uri: And frankly, I'd love to call everything. I do camp like, Hey, let's have a meeting at the office. Let's call it camp. Um, but whatever it is, what what's special is that Courtney has, has, has put effort into thinking about how to. Create structures so that it can be replicated and it's already been replicated in other countries and other sites.

uri: And Courtney and I talked about our cupboard and I talked about eventually getting it to the middle East. And I'm super excited to see, you know, people from different countries, from different backgrounds coming together around this. Thing called stuttering, which is kind of like a equal opportunity challenge.

uri: It doesn't discriminate. So it doesn't depend on socioeconomic factors or nationality or language. It's really present around the world in the same kind of. Way, uh, and prevalence. And what's also fascinating, uh, which you could see in movie transcending, stuttering, uh, our documentary or any other stuttering work is that there are a universal, universal experiences around it.

uri: Right? So I think that the things that work in Texas can really work elsewhere because even though Texas is the lone star state, its own little. Country. Um, the experience of stuttering is something that, that has no boundaries and can be a unifier to bring people together, which is also neat to see people from different backgrounds, kind of suddenly jelling because they have this common intimate experience and it can be very powerful to have that.

uri: So anyway, that's just some of the great stuff. And dr. Bert is also super prolific and presenting around the world and she's involved also with studying foundation. But their educational development side. So. Awesome. So what's your doctorate, what's your focus? What are you looking at? And shout out to Kurt Eggers or buddy from Europe and Sarah Bryant and Elizabeth Rosenbaum from England and Ari from New York.

uri: And add them from upstate New York. Dropped your comments, your questions. This is your chance. It's great to see everybody this morning. Comments shares, likes really helpful. So Robin, what's your, what's your focus in the, in your doctoral project? Yeah.

robyn: Um, I would say that I am most focused on these different psychosocial factors that can influence how people who, who stutter experienced the impact.

robyn: That's one area. So looking at things like how self, uh, self compassion, which is kind of a buzzword right now, but it's actually a measurable. Construct and looking at how these practices of mindfulness self-kindness social connectedness relate to the reactions that people have to their speech, how it relates to how they treat themselves before, during and after, um, difficult moments and ultimately how it relates to their overall quality of life.

robyn: So in this study that we recently did, we found that those two constructs. Self-compassion and impact of stuttering on, uh, quality of life are very highly, uh, re uh, related. Um, and that the more self-compassion you have the reduced negative impact you also have. Now we have a lot more work to do to see what moderates that, uh, re relationship whether it's self-compassion in itself is a moderator or a mediator between say a stressful event.

robyn: And the. Potential negative impacts that that event has. Um, but I think there's something really powerful in that idea of giving yourself compassion, because as much as we want to give our clients the tools that they need to be successful, to feel confident, to be accepting of whether they stutter or not.

robyn: We can't control everything that happens outside of that room. We can't always control how other people react. And so if you have this tool that you can give yourself compassion and be there for yourself at the very least when things don't feel good because they won't always feel good. Um, that could be a powerful concept.

robyn: So that's one area that I'm sure looking into. Um, another is how. Uh, self, uh, self disclosing that you stutter, um, can influence listener, uh, per perception. So on the one hand, I'm looking at the person who stutters and what they can do to reduce that and negative impact. On the other hand, looking at it from the side of the listener and looking at what can, the person who stutters do to reduce these myths.

robyn: Uh, misconceptions and to improve listener perception so that the person can stutter and they can stutter openly and they can tell their listener, Hey, I'm a person who stutters. And the study that I did as, um, or that I helped with rather when I was a senior was looking at when people who stutter tell their listener, Um, and a more informative and in a neutral way, Hey, I stutter, you might hear me repeat sounds or phrases versus apologizing saying, sorry, which yes,

uri: there's so much here.

uri: I just want to pace it. Can we dive into the first thing and then jump into stuff? Because I think for people that are watching. Or tell other people to watch, because this is important stuff. This is where the really interesting things are happening right now in the research in the field, you know, just really quickly to bring you up to speed.

uri: There's two sides to the stuttering experience, essentially, for some people it's heavier on one for others. It's the other way around. Sometimes. 50 50, sometimes 80, 20, 20, 80. There's the, you know, the visible, audible, um, sensory experience that we could see someone's stuttering. So that's like very easy to see it's above the surface.

uri: Um, we could see it, we can hear it. And until pretty recently, that was what most people were focused on. Measuring. Both in terms of the severity of the problem. And also in terms of what therapy we were doing, what we were working on and in terms of looking at progress and wellness and readiness to take a break and be done, or B the word I hate discharged.

uri: Um, but there's another side of stuttering that all of us that understand it know, and that is not visible. It's not on the surface. It's what's going on on the inside of a person. It's not the. The moment of interruption. It's the anticipation of that moment, which is invisible. It's the feeling of, is she going to say yes.

uri: Is he going to laugh at me when I go over to him? Is it, is the teacher going to give me that extra moment? Is the person next to me going to snicker? So my father likens it to, you know, you get mugged in a bad part of town. It's a bad moment. And then the next time you go to that part of town, you're already bracing yourself.

uri: Now, nothing has happened yet, but you're still experiencing the effect and the conditioning that that has had on you. And so that's for people who stutter often to some degree, they're 10 B. You know, greater or lesser and different types, but often some elements of this invisible attitudes and feelings and thoughts, and it really shakes things up.

uri: And only recently are we looking at that and dealing with that, and it can't just be healed by just looking at techniques of physicality and behavior at the lips. So the research that you were talking about that was just like little preamble. Was that okay? How'd I do,

robyn: yes. Very helpful. That framing provides a lot of context.

robyn: So thank

uri: you. Yeah, no, I need context. I get very confused. Um, so it's the same, by the way, the same thing that happens to me when I talk to you as the same thing that happened when I spoke to Jerry Maguire, like I just need to get grounded and like bring things back down to earth because the two of you you're like, I don't know the level.

uri: So, um, right. So the first thing was the self-compassion thing. I'm really interested in that. Uh, it sounds really wishy-washy, I'm a pretty wishy-washy kind of guy, but how did you look at, how did you look at kind of, um, Eliminating other variables and things, and kind of like really looking at the impact specifically of self-compassion.

uri: Um, and I think the exciting thing about that study or that, that line of thinking is what you were saying, and I'll just bounce it and filter it through my frame would be like, Right in the office, we can give people encouragement and boost them up and blow up their helium. But end of day, they go back to their life, whether it's that week or whether it's when we go back home and we stopped meeting them, the idea is to move it from the person being dependent on us to having their own independence, right.

uri: Being able to self-generate that strength and be able to even do some self healing. So, can you share anything about the specifics of how you kind of tease that apart and you're, and you're looking at that, and then we could talk about the disclosure because I'm super excited and interested in that too.

robyn: Yes, absolutely. I would say that we're still in the process of teasing it apart. We know that self-compassion as measured by the self-compassion scale and then the impact of a stuttering as measured by the, uh, uh, Oasis, the overall assessment of the speaker's experience. Um, But those two constructs are highly correlated, right?

robyn: That self-compassion predicts the other. And while we did collect data on other factors that we thought might influence that relationship, things like support group in involvement, treatment in enrollment and what they're targeting during treatment, because. Theoretically, these other involvements would influence the relationship between self-compassion and the impact of their speech, or it would predict whether they have high self compassion or not.

robyn: Um, so that in itself is a really interesting question. Um, unfortunately in our sample, we didn't have enough. Um, data for those points to analyze whether it's a significant relationship or not, but that is something that we're looking into. Um, because we know that from other populations that there are many factors that could influence how self-compassionate a person is, um, or not.

robyn: And I think that the tricky thing is like a chicken or the egg. Situation of what comes first, a person enrolls in treatment, and that makes them more self, self compassionate, or. What research might say is that you have to have this baseline level of being self compassionate in order to seek out treatment.

robyn: Um, and so there are a lot of different questions to, to answer. Um, including looking at is self-compassion something that can be developed, something that can be cultivated and again, in other, uh, populations and other settings, the answer seems to be yes, um, through different. Exercises through, um, journaling.

robyn: I mean, there are so many different avenues to cultivating this, but, um, you know, part of it there, there's just so much to, to figure out in terms of what is influencing this relationship between self-compassion and, uh, potential negative impact.

uri: I think it's amazing and critically important that we're looking at ways to look at the impact.

uri: Of some of these things that people kind of pass as alternative or wishy-washy. I think it's really important and exciting what you're doing. I would be interested. You probably have already thought about it or you've just put it in the back of your head. But like, I always am interested by people. Again, temperament is something, we talked about this from very early on when we were together, uh, temperament so important, uh, ed con to really got that in my head.

uri: And, um, so I think about people who were like highly reactive or people who have like a heavy tendency to go dark. Not everybody has that. Like some people go through tough times and they just bounce back again and again and again, and other people. They get knocked down. They get knocked down hard. It's really hard to get back up.

uri: So I wonder in what you're doing or in future work, it's looking at like the profile of the individual, how likely they would be to be a candidate for this kind of impact and how likely it would be a waste of time to thing that, you know, what worked for the less reactive more uppity spirit was really helpful.

uri: They took it and ran with it and wow, that was awesome. Whereas for another person, it could even be like, Disrespectful in a way, in other words, kind of just, what, what are your thoughts or what have you already kind of thought about that?

robyn: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And on a broader level, that's a question I think about all the time as I treat people, you know, clinically, um, I was doing my CF and I just finished, um, which is exciting.

robyn: Um, but I, I think about that all the time, how I see two, three, four adults who stutter each one of them has a different temperament, different personality and stuttering impacts them. Significantly differently. And I, and so that question of how does temperament influence the experience? How does it influence treatment when we're giving, um, similar but tailored and, you know, um, individualized treatment to each person?

robyn: How does it influence that in terms of self-compassion? I think that at least based on other literature, um, A barrier to using this as a technique is the misconception that self-compassion is somehow weak or selfish or means that you hold yourself to a lower standard. I think there are a lot of potential barriers that could be.

robyn: Between a person needing self-compassion and a person using it. And unless you address those barriers head on, then those are going to exist. It's like a misconception about anything. You have to bring it to light. And, um, just dispel that myth. Um, but we also know that self-compassion. Typically encourages people to hold themselves to an even higher standard, because they know that even if they fail, they'll be there for themselves.

robyn: And that they'll keep on going rather than having this. Standard that is unreachable that it's either 100% or nothing. So back to your original question about temperament, um, I, I could see just based on other research people with different temperaments, responding differently to this type of technique, I would also hope that there's some flexibility there as people learn more of what self-compassion is and more of the evidence-based behind it, rather than this kind of feel good.

robyn: Technique. That sounds nice, but what does it actually do for me? I think coming back to the data, especially for those who are driven by that is really, really important.

uri: And one of the things that came up for me as I was listening to you, you know, Julie Jackson on our team, she said something in a meeting that stayed with me.

uri: Uh, it's definitely for many months already, she said, you know, we think of speech strategies as strategies. And we think of counseling as like, Oh yeah. You know, that stuff. And she was saying how, like, we need to realize that we need to transmit to ourselves, to our colleagues and, and to the people that we serve.

uri: You know, uh, their speech techniques and then their like emotional techniques or whatever you call them strategies that the, the emotional self care that you're talking about. Self-compassion, self-love, self-care being your own safety net, knowing that you can catch yourself or that you have the wherewithal to pick yourself up or find the things that will soothe you or get you back up.

uri: That's the strategy no, less than some other physical strategy that might be out there. So I think that's just something I wanted to bring up from Julie. And, uh, what you said was so, so profound, you know, everyone in some measure can tap into this and of course, different people are gonna have different ways.

uri: I'm thinking of one analogy that I like to share. And then we'll go to that. Your current, uh, what you were talking about with Courtney, with the disclosure and analogy. I like, you know, parents will ask, well, like my, my teenage. Child son, daughter, they're not like moving quick enough. Like how do I help them pick up the pace?

uri: How do I help them expand their comfort zone? And, and some people would say, well, you just got to put them up at the mic. You know, just shove them up. There does nothing like sink or swim. And then other people, like they might think either because they feel that way for themselves or they project that their kid might.

uri: Where they intuitively feel that for their kid, that could be not the best thing. So I often tell parents, like, ask yourself if you were going away for like a three-day weekend and you had like this nice house to yourself, like an Airbnb or something. And there was this amazing swimming pool. And it's like the third morning and little Johnny hasn't gone in the pool yet.

uri: And you're just like, come on Johnny, like in a day, we're going home. This was like a three-day weekend. We got the place with the pool. Just for you. We got the floaties, we got the floating basketball thing. We got. Everything is set up and like you haven't gone in there's the diving board, there's the space come on.

uri: So I tell them like, what would Johnny need in that situation? Cause probably the same thing he might need there. We can extrapolate to this situation. So is the kid that just needs to be shoved in, like he's not going to jump in until he gets a little push and that might be what he needs. Is he the kind of kid that needs you to just kind of hold his hand and say, Hey Johnny, we're in this together.

uri: We're going to hold hands and jump in. I'm not going to let you go. If anything happens, I gotcha. Or is he the kind of kid that you just need to let him take his dandy old time? Because anything you do is just going to reset the clock. I think about that often. And I think it relates to a little bit of what you're talking about is like tuning into.

uri: You know, when we're working on stuttering or anything related to these things, it doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? The same way we react or have our temperament, or have our personality show up with this. It's usually consistent with the way it shows up in other things. So we can also be informed, you know, like when we're really in a conundrum, how to help our spouse, how to help our kid, how to help our parent, whatever, uh, thinking about, well, what do they seem to appreciate and what seems to set them off in other situations?

uri: And let's just kind of like inform ourselves from that. So I just wanted to share that. I think that's sometimes helpful.

robyn: Yes. Well, and it, the, it makes me think like in a stuttering therapy context about the therapeutic, uh, Alliance, um, which is what I did my masters thesis on. Um, which I loved reading about that and learning about that.

robyn: And that's a continued area of interest for me is how clinicians tune in to their clients. And that's exactly what you're saying. That for one individual shoving them in might be the best approach for the other, holding their hand for another something else. And it takes that attunement and, and really.

robyn: Reading those soft cues and reflecting back all of those counseling skills to build that Alliance, um, which again, in like psychotherapy literature, that relationship on itself has been shown to be more predictive of outcome than the actual treatment and in a stuttering research. I think we're starting to delve into that area.

robyn: Um, but just given. Research on the other side from people who stutter reporting that they're misunderstood by their treatment provider, that they're not satisfied. We look, and we ask why is it because of the treatment? Is it because they. Feel like they're not working on what they want to be working on or the pace, it could be any of those things, but it all comes back to that re relationship.

robyn: So, yeah, I, um, really appreciate what you just said about just being in tune with, with your client.

uri: Listen, I might be shaped master Schneider, but that was such a smooth transition talking about alignment. What a transition to disclosure, which the way I picture that as like, almost like a jail cell visit, like there's a glass wall between you and the other person, and you don't know exactly what they're thinking, but you kind of just leave it hanging there and what disclosure can do.

uri: And I share this in our online video course, the transcending stuttering Academy, where I put everything together. The idea is you could take down that class wall. I almost think of it as like Ronald Reagan and the Berlin wall tear down that wall. Because until that happens on the, on your side, you're wondering, Oh, what are they going to think?

uri: Or, Oh, like, I hope, I hope they don't assume that. Or maybe they won't notice. There's like all these thoughts, but the one thing that's happening is you ain't connected to the other person. The barrier is caught in your own head. And then what's interesting. And I think a lot of people don't. Necessarily realize often the listener is having their own conundrum.

uri: Okay. I want to connect with this person and there's this thing. And I can tell that it's a little bit of an elephant in the room. I'm not sure how to touch it. I'm not sure how to address it. I want to, but I don't want to make them uncomfortable. So there's this incredible tension and barrier. Um, back to your alignment, I would just want to give one tip for everybody.

uri: If you're a therapist or you're. Whatever, working with kids coming home, your own kids coming home, or you're a teacher. We use this one to 10 for everything. So I'll ask a client, you know, like one to 10, how was today's meeting? And if they're like eight, I'm like awesome. What, what, what was good? And what would've made it a 10, like what was there too much of, or what was missing?

uri: So that next time we can Jack it up. If you're a person who's not being asked that question, offer the feedback. Um, I'm a big fan of the work of Jeff round. You can look him up amazing statistician with did some really good metadata on some of the things that you were talking about, rabbit about psychotherapy and psychopharmacology or different approaches of psychotherapy and how much therapeutic Alliance.

uri: Proved to be such an X factor. Um, it wasn't about the talent of the clinician or the experience of the clinician. It really had to do with how well did they create understanding and get behind the goals of the person who was coming to get somewhere. So checking in became the metric that they started using and they started their results, just go through the roof.

uri: So we basically every visit do that. And I also do it with my kids. How was today? You know, how was that outing, whatever, how, but whatever. Uh, so that's a great little practical thing people might want to take away. Bring us bring us the disclosure, but what's the latest and greatest. And I think it's really interesting.

uri: I think it's thought of often as a binary thing, like, do you open up, you come out of the closet, but there's so much more to it, right? Because if you come out and you say like, listen, bear with me. I stutter. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know. I know. Look, I'm disclosing on talent. I know I'm a burden. It's going to take a little extra time.

uri: You set it up in that way, you couch it. Right. But, uh, I think what you might share is how Courtney has looked at the different words we use. The choice of words can really change our world, right? Words, create worlds. And when you use language being mindful of language, that's hot or cold or neutral and the impact, maybe you could just elaborate.

uri: Cause I think that's really exciting, valuable stuff.

robyn: Yes, absolutely. And I mean, you really just said it perfectly, um, the way that a person

uri: that's scratching the surface, you're the one in the trenches. You're the one with dr. Bird, really rolling up your sleeves. I am just a student sitting on the wall.

robyn: That is how I feel every day of my life. So, um, but what you said is, is really exactly it, that when a person who stutters are really anyone, um, self, self discloses, something about themselves, The listener mirrors, how we are, if we are confident and we're comfortable, the listener feels comfortable. If we're apologetic and embarrassed and ashamed, the listener feels awkward.

robyn: And we don't only know this anecdotally, but that's what our study looked at. So we looked at when people who stutter self-disclose and in the formative banner, meaning they tell the listener that they stutter. They briefly explained what that means. You may hear me repeat sounds or words. If you have any questions, please ask versus apologizing to saying I stutter.

robyn: Bear with me. I've been working on it for a long time. Or, um, I, I stumble over my words. It, it might be hard for me to talk that kind of self-deprecating language versus not saying anything about it at all. And what we found is that the person who stutters, who self-disclosed in an informative manner only.

robyn: They were viewed as being significantly more confident, more friendly, more intelligent, more outgoing. And these are all traits that are in direct contrast to the stuttering, uh, a stereotype that people who set or are shy, nervous, and insecure, right? When a person's self discloses they're viewed as having more of the traits that are in complete contrast to those other misconceptions.

robyn: I'm

uri: not going to say the name for a reason which may or may not be understood that that's okay. Just a few conversations ago, I spoke with an amazing woman and she was talking about this, this kind of like dance of wanting to be totally open. And on the other hand, on the one hand she is open. She had a conversation with me about something that's very intimate and personal, and it's obviously in the public domain.

uri: And at the same time, there are certain places where she's still wants to keep it.

robyn: Personal

uri: quiet, not out in the public domain. So first of all, I think that's fascinating and that like, we make that okay. Right. That it doesn't have to be again binary as the all or nothing. But what was fascinating was she asked me to give her some feedback or something to think about.

uri: And I said, well, uh, I guess I'm wondering,

robyn: what do you think would happen

uri: if you did kind of open up in that new sphere where you haven't yet? Don't do it right. Or I even said, let's make it third person. Imagine there was another lady Susie, and she had the same conundrum. What would you tell her? Like,

robyn: you know,

uri: and, and when she actually went into that in a safe kind of way, and we got past the reactivity and the trauma and the fear and all the thoughts, racing and the feelings, um, I, I think they'd respect me.

uri: I think they, you know, so it's fascinating how our minds and our emotions sometimes. Get in our own way. Right. Isn't that interesting. So I think it's amazing. Um, what more could you share? Cause I think the other cool thing is people think that's like an East coast, West coast or progressive Austin thing, but I think Courtney has really shown dr.

uri: Bird has shown cross-cultural right, because you've looked at, can you talk a little bit about that? How this is a truth.

robyn: Absolutely. Yes. So, um, more recently we replicated it and, uh, uh, Israel. So we replicated the exact same study and a different cultural context and a different linguistic context and the, the results, um, held true in the sense that self-disclosing and an informative manner.

robyn: Um, seems to be the most beneficial in terms of improving listener perceptions and that's across a different country, a different culture in a different language. Um, and you know, I think that what many. People who stutter will say anecdotally, is that the way that it feels to self-disclose in an informative versus an apologetic way?

robyn: It feels different. It feels different when you're actually saying it out loud. And so what we're seeing in our most recent research is, yeah, so self-disclosing, cross-culturally. For the person who stutters can be, uh, beneficial. And there's still a lot of work to do in terms of how does the person who stutters feel as they're saying it out loud.

robyn: And does that differ in a different cultural context is returning

uri: to my culture. Let's take an extra moment, not too much more, but I did want to honor that we've got our good friend Gareth welcome from, uh, Belgium mr. Virtual reality himself, if you haven't already checked out his videos from the Australian speakeasy conference and the Canadian stuttering association conference, he has a question for you.

uri: He says, I noticed in your self-compassion paper. I hope I'm not putting you on the spot, but people actually read it. People actually read

robyn: thank you for reading it.

uri: So Garrett says that in that self-compassion paper, the self-compassion scores were similar between genders. Did you notice any difference in the results between ages?

uri: Let's say if you split it between ages and I'm really interested in that too. I think the idea of readiness for change or readiness to do courageous things. I think there's a window early on. And then I think it gets tougher probably at a certain like. Teen early twenties finding yourself, but then it's easier later at like 50, but what were your findings?

uri: What did you

robyn: say? That's a great question first. Thank you so much for, you know, reading it and for asking this for the, for that study, we actually didn't look at age, so I can't speak definitively as to how age influenced it. I can say that in other. Areas and other literature age does seem to predict that self-compassion increases as a person ages.

robyn: That's an area that I'm also really interested in. Um, I, given that stuttering affects people across the life span. I mean, at the Institute, right. We work with, and I'm sure that you do too, or with people from age two to. To 82, um, and to see how stuttering evolves and how perception and experience and resiliency to adverse experiences influences, um, their current perception, I think is really interesting.

robyn: So I love that you asked that question and would definitely love to look into it in the future.

uri: Awesome. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that says a lot that Robin is doing research, that people are actually reading already tells you, you know, that she's doing work. That's like real life relevant. You know, like most research that studies show most research is not read. So someone's reading your stuff. That is a big step up.

uri: You pop on this Facebook live. Boom. And, and Gareth pops in from Belgium. I love that. I love it. Um, Sarah Brian also had some comments about the importance of the language. Not only does it set the tone for the listener, but the, the language also influences the speakers. So, you know, our emotions often get laced onto our voice.

uri: In a very deep way. They also get laced into the words and then vice versa. You know, it can be like a river kind of thing where you get, like the words you use can put you in a certain state. They can put you in a certain mentality. Fascinating, fascinating. Well, we're just getting warmed up, but we are going to wrap, but I just wanted to share the idea of the lifespan and I in Garrett's question so interesting and robbing your interest in that, I think says a lot.

uri: I wanted to just share that. And I shared this on a previous one, I think right after I did a Facebook live, a friend of mine, his name is also Murray. I think it's really bizarre. And he wrote to me and said he wanted to just share this and that people can feel free to know who to reach out to in whatever I set up mentorship and things with him.

uri: He said, it's been 40 years since my bar mitzvah. I'm 53 years old. This has nothing to do with Judaism. But for 53 years, since that very public moment, that very public experience of kind of getting up there, that Rite of passage in front of the community, being a young person who stutters and what a, what a challenging, stressful experience that was.

uri: He always turned it down for the next year, decade and the next and the next. And then it's 53 40 years later. He steps back up on the plate. So I think I just want to highlight that, uh, you know, clearly things change shift happens and, uh, hang in there, whether you're, uh, uh, professionals caring for someone who you don't think is moving quick enough, whether you're a parent hoping and waiting that this was going to be the birthday, this was going to be the month.

uri: This was going to be the week. Sometimes you just got to hang in. People blossom in their own speed and their own time. Um, but at the same time, I think that's where early intervention in a non-conventional way makes a lot of sense that we need to help parents and young people acquire that self-compassion and acquire that self image early on of close with this one thing that you'll think you'll like this very much, you can take this back and share with experts, see what she thinks.

uri: Karen's are often worried and scared to open up the conversation about stuttering because they don't want to make it a bigger thing. And the kid hasn't brought it up yet. So why should I bring it up on the other hand? Of course, I want to give them a feeling that it's an open. So I tell parents sometimes it's like conversation with the birds and the bees.

uri: Nobody wants to have that conversation. Everyone wants to,

robyn: but you don't,

uri: you never feel like it's the right time. You know, when they were seven

robyn: 17,

uri: you know, you just don't want to go there. And, and I always say is like, if you don't have that conversation and you wait too long, someone else will. And if it's a sensitive matter that you want to have influence and you want to shape the person's perception for life and set them on a course of how they, how they see themselves, when they look in the mirror, you know, it behooves us to get a little bit out of our comfort zone and maybe initiated a little sooner than we might have, because the opportunity is a window.

uri: And if we can get an early, we can, we can really have a big influence in the way young people grow up. Whether they end up being people who stutter or grow out of it, addressing what is it is what it is, making it more neutral, having a way to talk about it, create a language that works. I have a video on our blog about this, how to talk about these things and finding the language to talk about it.

uri: Could be one of the most helpful things. Anyone could do much more than fixing the physical condition, but by doing these things, you can also just get out of the way and get a lot of that emotional tension and mental tension released. So that perhaps just. Natural development takes its course or whatever it is.

uri: Doesn't become a distraction greater than it needs to be. Robin, we gotta, we gotta have like a campfire for our power. Well, you meet Andrew cup of coffee, some tea. My dad gordonii let's do it.

robyn: I would love that

uri: socially distanced in Austin.

robyn: Let's do it. Let's do it.

uri: Listen. Keep up the great work, send our warm regards by at UT Austin.

uri: But you, I am proud to say I knew you when you are something special and I am so grateful that you took the time to get in early and have this. Thank you.

robyn: Thank you. Or a thank you so much.