BIO

Pamela Mertz hid her stuttering for close to 30 years. People closest to her did not know she stuttered because she hid it so well. "Avoidance" was her preferred way of hiding. For years, Pam intentionally chose to not speak up, get involved and let her “Real Pam” out. Then, in 2006 she was fired from a 20+ year job due to stuttering. That was her "rock bottom" moment, and she decided to reclaim herself, her voice, and her true identity as a person who stutters. She finally embraced her stuttering self and no longer engages in the exhausting practice of trying to hide. Pam’s open authenticity has had a reciprocal result: when she openly stutters, she invites others to be open about their “thing” and deeper conversations happen and strong relationships are built. Pam has facilitated many workshops on covert stuttering and women who stutter, locally and around the world.

Pamela Mertz is a person who stutters and is actively involved in the global stuttering community.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

RESOURCES

• Board of Directors, National Stuttering Association

• Country leader, 50 Million Voices (international employment advocacy group)

• Blogger

• Podcaster, “Women Who Stutter: Our Stories.”

• Past: Board, International Stuttering Association

• Host, "Stutter Social" (for close to six years)

MORE QUOTES

“Some of the gender experiences of being a woman can influence and color the experience, being a person who stutters and that needs to be taken into consideration.” - Pamela Mertz

“It can be tough in the work in the workplace, but there are people, there are resources that can help you be successful. - Pamela Mertz

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: Good morning, everybody. What a treat, I have a lot of treats. I'm very fortunate in this morning, especially someone who is a real true rock star. Um, when I was younger, I love Metallica. Now I liked Pamela Mertz. Um, not enter Sandman, but enter the rock star of, uh, Of everything that has to do with, um, having a, having a personal experience going through life experiences and then, um, taking some difficult and challenging experiences and turning them into something that propel you further, but value higher and then paying it forward.

I can't think of a more active and influential person than Pamela Mertz in that regard. Um, so my name's Marie Schneider from Schneider speech and, and here we are having this conversation. And as I said before, these, I shouldn't be here business being here, but somehow some way these conversations all happened behind the scenes.

So I figured, Hey, everybody feels so isolated. Why don't we just invite more connectivity and more connections and share? There are networks. So Pamela's network and our network and riches network in Australia. And this one and that one. We can, we can share stories and through sharing stories, different people will resonate with different things and different people would feel there's some more hope.

There's some more possibility. There's some more wisdom. There are some more resources. It's a world where we all are a little bit in our own little caves in one way or another and all the more so now. And so these connections and opening up doors and creating connections is what this is all about. And so I'm really grateful that.

But Pamela agreed to come on. And I think she also shares a unique voice, um, of a woman who stutters. And, uh, she's been a great advocate in that regard for the entire community, people who stutter. Um, she's a board member of the national stuttering association. She has her own log for a long time. She's got a podcast with how many, uh, how many, uh, episodes are we up to?

Pamela Mertz: I just actually interviewed a woman last last night and she will be at, uh, episode two 21, 121. I can tell you, um, I love this and it takes me very little energy. I get more out of it than I put into it, but it's effort, but I'm like at like, I don't know, 20 or so 200 plus I can't even imagine. Um, so the links to amla's podcast and the blog or on the description, um, it's a great treat and I'll let family just introduce herself.

What do you, what do you want to share? What do you think people should know? What are you most proud of? And then we can jump in to where you've been, how you got to where you are, what are some things you're working on for the future? Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for have, have, have ha ha me today.

Um, this is, this is fun, and I always like to have con con conversations about my personal experience. Um, so, and, and, uh, First, firstly, you can feel free to call me Pam. I like Pamela in my, in my, uh, professional role, but I, I answered a Pam, so that's good. Um, as you said, I'm on the board directors of the national studies, that stuttering association.

This is my fourth year in, uh, with that. Um, I was a past board member of the international stutter stuttering association. I currently right now I'm very actively involved. Yeah. Kind. The scenes of putting together the annual. Um, a three week online conference for international stuttering aware, aware awareness day, I've become the webmaster for that and putting it together.

Yeah. All the contributions that we have, um, the conference begins on October 1st and we're, we've got about 50. Contributions from people who stutter people, people who care about people, people who stutter professionals in the field. Um, we have, um, a couple of pieces from parents. So I always get excited.

So excited about this con conference every year, because it's a good way for, um, people who don't, don't stutter to interact with the authors of the. Pieces and on and do that. Um, I'll put the link in the description if it's not already there or in the comments, if anyone's listening and could put it in there, drop your likes, drop your comments, your questions.

We'll see if we can get to some, share this to add, you know, more listeners. So Pamela's voice and stories can reach more people. I sat is an incredible global experience. Um, from the beginning of October until October 22nd, which is the crescendo, it's the international stuttering awareness day, the product of many people, decades of efforts to bring the world together, uh, as a community of people who stutter, um, for self advocacy for more understanding for professionals and just bringing people together around the world.

Around this two misunderstood topic and creating connections and understanding and conversations and stuff and encourage great things. And so it's always been ahead of its time. Um, shout out to Mike Sugarman and Judith Custer. I'm less familiar with some of the international pillars of it, but I know that they, they deserve a big shout out and others do as well.

Forgive me and Pam a little fill in perhaps, but for those I missed, please, don't take it personally for joined by dr. Phil jumping in. Nice. How are you? We're here with Pamela Mertz from the national stuttering association. Oh my gosh. I love electrical zoom links. This is amazing. I'd love. Would you like to share anything?

We were just talking about international stuttering awareness day. Where would you like maybe you were popping in on a personal level and you want to pop off that's okay, too. Yeah, I had to keep moving any case, uh, Keep you on for one second, to just tell you one thing we shared a few minutes ago, John clausing was saying something as follows.

He said, one thing that stands out in spending time with you was your habit of always saying good morning to everyone you cross in the street. And so popping in here unexpected is so awesome. Point, just say hi. So thanks for Papa. Good morning, Pamela. Where are you? I, I I'm, I'm in, I'm in upstate new, New York.

I've heard of it. Albany heard of that also. Good to meet. Yes. Yes. We have met once or twice pers uh, personally at con con con conferences, but, um, Uh, you've met thousands of people, so it's okay that you may not remember meeting me well, that's why I'm getting a chance to re reinvigorate the memory in it right now.

So thanks for what you do. I appreciate everybody's efforts to make these things so powerful and such a wonderful healing force in the world. So thank you. Thanks. Alright,

take care. Alright. Bye. Bye. Bye bye always live. You gotta love it online. Anyway. So I said, I'll finish with that. October 22nd is the crescendo. It's an international stuttering awareness day and the website will have, you know, all these wonderful submissions. And it's really a global conversation, as Pamela said, and Penn was behind it all as the webmaster.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's a plethora of really, really, um, um, experiences we have, um, papers, submit it, um, buy in about people who stutter and their, and their, and their personal experiences we have. Um, Papers and submissions, um, on research therapy and support. And then we also have, um, creative expressions, which is actually my favorite, favorite, favorite part of the, of the con con con friends.

Um, we have people that have submitted. Video of, of, of their, of their experience. We have a couple of people, um, most notably, a 10 year old boy who stuttered stutters has submitted, has submitted a poem. So it's really a unique place to, to hear from all these different voice of voices, um, that don't ordinarily get a chance to amp amp amplify and, and, and, and beyond on like a.

Public, um, Hmm. And obviously international stage. So really looking forward to getting that, to getting that, that started. Um, you mentioned at the beginning and I would just like to, um, um, add to that. Um, I've been blogging, blogging about my own personal experience experiences with, uh, stuttering, uh, since February of 2009.

Um, that one of the first bloggers, I, I, it might possibly be, um, it's, uh, called make room for the stuttering. And that title is significant, significant, significant, because, um, when I was first coming out about study stuttering, I'd been culvert for a number of years. Um, I met, I met, met with a very wise.

Counselor slash thera therapy therapist. And we were talking about stuttering and he made the calm comment too. To me. I don't hear you're stuck. You're stuck. You're stuttering. I hear. All the words around it and you make room for it in such a way. Um, you know, that, that, that sandwiched around around around your stuttering are so much more important than the actual stuttering Mo moments.

So that stuck with me, the making room for, for the stuttering. And that's how my that's how my blog, the title was born. And I always felt. Um, hire prior to the pivot, that moment, a moment, a moment that I had that tipped me over from, from covert to overt, um, uh, was, was when I began to finally record reconcile, um, that I can be.

A per, uh, per a person who stutters and an effect, active communicator and okay. All these other things in my life stuck stutter, stuttering certainly did not have to define or limit or limit me. And then the podcast came a year later in 2010. Um, so I've been, um, amplifying the voices of women of women.

Who's that who stutter? Um, And as you know, we're in, we're the minority within the minority, um, women, women who stutter. I like to, I like to say we're unicorns, vocal, minority. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the podcast start started because I had found my voice and I wanted it to give a place for other, other women too, to find an express their voice.

And, you know, what's funny is that. I did not think it would last. I did not think that women want it to, um, share, share, share, share the story and make it pub public on the internet. So I was thinking, Oh, this is going to be like a, you know, a short, a short, short, short term thing, five or six episodes. And, you know, at this point I've interviewed 220 at people, not only from the United States, what from all over the world.

Um, and that's really special because, um, it just shows the university out of the, the stuttering experience experience, particularly from women. Wow. So what would be, um, something that stands out either I'm sure out of 220 conversations of that sort and life experiences around the world and many years of experience for the podcasting or this specific angle.

And then we can come back to your story, which I know a lot of people would love to hear. Um, what would you say is something unique to the experience of women who stutter, something that stands out that isn't captured necessarily enough that you feel deserves some. Extra understanding and attention.

Well, just the fact that, um, that women have store stories, um, that need to be told. And one of the things that I've learned, um, uh, is, is simply asking. Somebody to tell their story is enough because we don't often get asked to, to, to, to share our stories. So I think in the 10 years of doing this, I've only had one person declined, but for the most part everybody has and, and, and one, yeah.

To share that story, many women have told us. Told told me that up until hearing a podcast episode by two people, two women, women who stutter that they thought they were the only ones. And, you know, and I've even heard from men who stutter. I have told, told, told me they didn't know women stuttered, stuttered, too, because of that, because of that, you know, we're only, you know, one out of five people, you know, four or five people that stutter and only one, one, one of five is, um, a woman.

But I got a little off track there. What I, you know, your, your question was, you know, what has been, you know, an important insight with the, with the, with the pod podcast, um, which by the way, I believe I'm the only person in the world hosting a podcast exclusively for, for, for women really, really penetrated that space quite nicely.

There's not a lot of competition. So you're dominating in that space, but that's where leaders go. Leaders don't follow. They lead before others go there. And so a hundred percent, you know, finding, finding the stories that need to be amplified. And I'm thinking of very yeoman who hopefully we're going to have to have a conversation.

No, he's someone who, who, who tells stories and writes stories so beautifully. But what you're doing is, you know, this is what we all need to do is listen to the stories of people outside of our immediate space. And, and, and if we can, it was done as grand platform for that. So women around the world who stuttered, this is, this is a unique platform.

So after 220 conversations, what's, it's like a common thread. That's unique to insight, to understanding and giving more voice and, uh, acknowledgement the voices of women who stutter, what would be. Well, what I found all almost across the board is that women are eager and want to talk about the experiences of stuttering.

Women want to, to actually talk about the, feel, the feelings and the emotions and the emotions behind stuttering. Whereas in my experience, men, Seem to be a little more focus focused on. The fix, you know, like, you know, they're not really interested in talking about how it feels or the isolation or, you know, uh, the, the, the shame name perhaps, and the lengths that women, I have found that women tend to be more covert, covert covert than, than, than men.

But, you know, women are women emotive and, and, and want it want to share those emotions. And I, in my experience, um, being in the stuttering community community community for, for a while now, I find men more interested in, you know, Help me to be fluent, you know, and women tend to not want to go there. Of course, some do, but they don't want to go there so quickly because all of the feelings and, and, and, and, and the emotion that just comes from being a woman, period, you know, the socialization that we've had, um, the often.

Um, societal opinions of women, of women being, you know, the person that's in the background, the nurturer, the caregiver giver, um, you know, uh, it, and that, you know, like, Calling a spade, a spade women have traditionally been conditioned to be the, um, uh, inferior gender agenda, gender. So to, to have women talk about what that is like a long with stuttering just really has been.

I think very empowered powering, um, for women who are sharing, sharing their stories. And I have found that to be universal, whether it's a woman in, um, you know, uh, West Africa, whether it's a woman in Slovenia, whether it's a woman in prison, Monnier, doesn't start it right. When you said Lavinia just made me think.

No, I, I. I was, yes, I'm. I'm talking about, um, a woman. Uh, her first name is BIA is Beata. Um, so mostly everyone on the pod, HUD, HUD podcast, stutters, I have had a couple of women who do not stutter, um, on the podcast. Um, and they are women who. Get the stuttering experience experience. So I've had Vivian, SIS, SIS Siskin as a guest had, um, Jill Douglas as, as, as a guest.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and names of, um, Women who who understand very often the lengths that, um, us with us, with us, women who stutter, um, off, off often take to normalize stuttering, would it be fair to say it sounds like what you're saying, and I know Steven, our good friend, Steven just is watching this.

So if anyone wants to drop a comment, a like, A share those things are very helpful. We'll try to incorporate that into our conversation, but it also helps share Pamela's story and help get this conversation out there. And especially today is an opportunity to really shed some more light and understanding on the experiences of women who stutter something that Penn was very passionate about.

It's interesting. What you said about, you know, adding the layers, let's say gender roles and things like that, that, you know, so it sounds like. For a person who stutters there, identity of being a person who stutters and then depending on a number of attributes, he might be a person who stutters is also an African American conversation with cold coffee stutters with down syndrome.

It might be a person who stutters, who has Asperger's might be a person who stutters. Who's a woman, the person who stutters who's. Uh, transgender. Uh, and so you may have many, and I'm not don't mean to exclude others, but we all wear many paths and have many identities. So I think what you're saying is sometimes they bleed into each other, right?

So like the experience of being a woman, some of the gender experiences of being a woman can influence and color the experience, being a person who stutters and that needs to be taken into consideration. Is that fair? It is, it is. And, um, in the early, early, early days of pod pod podcasting, um, I was talking to two women, women who freely mentioned that, you know, um, things like hormones, things like pregnancy, you know, effects.

The, the spectrum of stuck stuttering that we may have, um, monthly, weekly, daily. And, and, and to be honest, I had never considered that, you know, but then as I began to think, think, think about that. Well, Oh my goodness. Yes, that's absolutely true. You know, um, There are physical experience experiences that women have that men don't.

Um, and just to talk about, I know about that till now. I have in preparing for this, I spoke to my wife and she told me, in fact, that's true. There are different experiences that are deeper than identity or social constructs. There are also physiological biochemical differences. It's news to me, but it's something we need.

Isn't up to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, women, women, women have shared, shared, shared with me that, you know, there's certain times of the month where Thurston stuttering is is, is more, is, is more pronounced. Um, yeah, I am. So this is, I'm so glad you brought that up because there no way I can bring that up, but I just want to let you know, and anyone that's listening, this is so true.

And it is not news to me or to my father. It's a very delicate conversation to have with any, especially if you're not a woman. Um, but if you're dealing with something that has, uh, a tendency or a potentially a correlation with changes in hormone levels and biochemical. You know, balances of different chemicals and hormones in the brain, which there's nothing to be ashamed of.

It's just something to be aware of and mindful. I love when you realize that, Oh, that elevation of stuttering that I'm experiencing, that's creating great anxiety. Yeah. Panic. Oh, it's not a linear kind of like escalation it's actually correlated with. My cycle and likely as I go through my cycle, I will come through it just as I do with other changes of swelling or other emotional experiences that shift through that time can be very liberating.

And I think, I don't know. And I'm putting it out there please. I know there's some of my good friends. They can comment here and I'll definitely bring this up with Jerry Maguire next week. And Kristin Comella next week, both of whom have contributions on this topic. Uh, I don't know if there's any studies on this, but I have seen it time and time again, as a very liberal we're reading.

Very important note. So for clinicians, for parents of young women, and frankly for boys going through puberty as well, that changes hormones. So women experienced it on a monthly cycle. Some more regular, some less, uh, pregnancy, um, uh, earth control meds, anything that's messing with hormones, be considered.

And for boys, uh, they don't have the same cycles, but around the time of puberty, they certainly go through a massive upheaval. And it's not uncommon. And people sometimes associated with stress event during high school or this year that sometimes it's more biologically shifting. And I know there are people listening that think all kinds of things about the basis of stuttering and what it's about.

I'm not entering that, that argument. What I do want to emphasize is there are definitely things that exacerbate the stuttering experience. And when you have no idea what's going on and you feel out of control and totally clueless, you make up sports. And often those stories lead to worry, horror, fear, and behavioral shifts and patterns and things you're ready to do, not ready to do and all kinds of guardedness.

So I just want to amplify what Pam was saying when she kind of saying one of the things that stands out is this undiscussed, underappreciated. Impact of hormonal changes, impacting stuttering is something that clinically my father and I see all the time and in the most delicate of ways, um, it's gotta be done in a respectful, appropriate and delicate way.

But helping a woman or a young woman understand this can be extremely helpful. Indeed, indeed. And, and, and that, that seemed to be, you know, um, a universal theme when I've, when I've, when I've talked to women, women, um, you know, particularly younger, younger, younger women. Um, you know, that that is definitely some, something, something, uh, to be experienced experienced.

Um, I've also seen it, um, uh, for probably about six years at the national stuttering association, annual con con conferences. Um, I, I led and then recruited a couple of other women who stutter. I led, um, women only. Workshops at the con. Con conferences and quickly found out that that was, it was a really important space for women.

And we'd often have, um, 60, 75 people, um, to come into those workshops. And we would divide into small groups to give people opera, opera opportunities, to, you know, um, share, share, share their stories. Um, and very often we thought tears, you know, because women. Of different ages are, share her share or sharing their stories of dating and marriage and pregnant, pregnant pregnancy.

And, you know, um, um, well I ever find a life part, a part, a part partner, um, that it's going to value and chair a charity cherish me beyond the stuttering. Um, yeah. And, and just to see. Not even here, but just to see the, the power power of, you know, giving women physical space together to talk about, about, about those, those, those things, um, was really important.

Uh, Uh, to, to provide that physical space. So I'm kind of in that position where I'm helping to provide avert a virtual space, as well as at the conferences, um, a physical, a physical space, um, and also during. This of precedent did time. That we're, that, that, that we're currently find finding ourselves in. I will, I will also hosted a number of women only zoom zoom meetings, um, which again, it's really important to just have that space because.

W what it's only women, women can let their guard down. They can ask questions that they may not feel comfortable asking when men, when men are around and can feel freer to be emotional and let and let some of those emotions out. So it's, um, it's definitely. It's definitely important work for people, uh, to explore just the issues of identity and being a woman who, who stutters.

And I think that's, I couldn't agree more. And I think the work that you're doing and the national stuttering association to really continue to be leaders in, you know, being there, building community, making sure people don't feel alone wherever they are on the one hand, these are. Extraordinarily challenging times for all of us.

It's even more important to find your community and support, to find those rooms where you can find your, your people, people will get to you don't feel alone, um, at the same tax, incredibly challenging. So I think your podcast again, ahead of its time, amazing because it transcends physical boundaries and physical space, the blog, similarly, uh, how are you in the NSA and what are you doing these days?

Kind of. Continuing to do the vital work that you do in a world that deals with geographic boundaries and boundaries of being together when it's might not be safe to be together in ways that traditionally we would, what, what are some of the opportunities and ways that things are happening at the NSA?

Well, you may know, um, that the NSA launched a. In, uh, in, in innovative pro program. Um, now we launched in January of 2019. So we're approaching two to two years now with this, we, um, have a program called stutter at work and that initiative, um, base based basically sprung from the idea and, and my long, long held beliefs that.

The NSA could do more for just people who stutter. I think it's important to do some advocacy and outreach to the other 99%, um, that are in, that are in, in, in, in our worlds, um, and help, help, um, Um, other people better understand stuttering and in the we stutter at work, um, uh, realm, what I really want it to do.

Um, I was one of the leaders and the drivers behind this, what I really, really, really want it, want it to do, um, to create opportunities for employers to better understand I used to do. Um, I was one of the leaders and the drivers behind. Okay. That was kind of weird. Basically. I was a wee stutter at work website link.

And as I did that, the Facebook live started talking to you. So you were hearing yourself. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so we stutter at work focuses on providing education and awareness and information to employers. And not just people who stutter. Um, I just found that we could have, we could have gone to the next level of providing resources for pardon me, um, people that are not just people who stutter.

So we've developed a bunch of resources for people who stutter, um, Namely mock interviews. Uh, we offer much with Kunal this week out of New York. And obviously George Tikia. These are people that are in financial district are doing incredible work, creating mock interview opportunities at places like Goldman Sachs and Mitsui or little known fact.

I was the Mitsui scholar. I was at Queens college and they had a $10,000. Scholarship for, um, business students. And I had a minor in business and a Barbara, someone from Queens college can remind me, I'm blanking out on her last name. She was so kind and caring. I only remember her first name. Anyway, she hurry.

You got to apply. I said, I don't know. I don't want to write. She's like, it's a scholarship and there's so few applicants just write the thing. I remember sitting down at the Mitsui corporation and having my little kosher meal and unpacking it. And I was like, wow, this is special. He's a great people. So the Mitsui corporation where.

Now works, uh, has hosted such a mocking you as well as Georgia tequila, Goldman Sachs. And, and this is just two examples of things born out of right. Born out of this initiative that you're talking about. And, uh, interestingly, I, I helped George with the ones with the ones that will not surprise me. Yep. So I went down, uh, I I'm in upstate New York.

So a trip to New York city is only two and a half hours. I would just want to emphasize people that don't know New York generally think, Oh, New York, New York city or city, right. Area Pamela lives in Albany. Albany is not. A suburb of New York city. It's the capital. It's the capital district. It's actually the capital of New York state and New York city.

It's this little city on the bottom. Yeah, I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it's little, but everybody now, wow. Still live upstate that's that's what's happening. People want to buy homes up there because some people don't want to stay in the city, but I, I appreciate those who are hanging in there and we will come back just as we did.

Before, but, uh, so I'm just emphasizing Pamela's dedication. It's not just virtual. She goes the distance. Yeah. So I've gone down to Goldman Sachs, um, for their first two, uh, mock interview events and helped George, uh, behind the scenes, helping people register, helping advertise it and promote it. But importantly, I was part of the.

Uh, presenting an overview of stuttering to the golden sack employees that were volunteering to be, um, interviewers for people coming in. So it was nice to be able to be part of that stuttering one Oh one, um, uh, four were employees that were giving up half of their day. Two volumes, fall volunteer to be interviewers.

Um, and I remember very distinctly asking people, why are you here? You know, why aren't you doing some other volunteer activity? Like some of the other, some of your other colleague colleagues, colleagues are like, you know, volunteering too, uh, help for, um, build, um, uh, uh, Uh, habitat houses or, you know, volunteering, painting, uh, you know, um, um, a shelter or something like that.

And many people had said, because they didn't understand stuttering, stuttering, and they thought that. Uh, becoming better attuned to stuttering, Michael, really help people who stutter really get a job. Um, so it was much more chant, tangent, tan, tangible, uh, for those folks. So. I found it really interesting to be in that position too, a P P providing the in, in, in information, um, and, and helping people better understand it.

And another fun fact, um, Um, at the end of the day at the Goldman Sachs, uh, um, mock interview day, um, the first year I, after the networking and the lunch and stuff or not lunch, the networking at the end of the day. And, uh, we provided some food and people were just, you know, talking and whatnot. And I, and I, and I was kind of like cornered by this one person that wanted to talk about my God.

You are such an incredible speaker speaker. And how do you do it? What's your trick? Like, what's your, you know, what's, what's, what's your message. And this person is fluent and was talking to me about how terrible terror terrifying it was for him. So we were chatting for about a half an hour and out of the corner of my eye.

I saw somebody else patiently. Wait, wait, waiting to get right. My attention, attention. Um, So we finally finished up with this, this one guy who I'm still in touch with. Um, cause I had helped him consider getting involved with toast, toast, toast, masters, and, um, and the like, but this, so the second person came, uh, came up to me.

And he was from the New York city mayor's office of, uh, and he was representing there, um, employment opportunities for disabled new Yorkers. And he, he asked me, would I be willing to come and speak to his, his staff at the mayor, mayor mayor's office about, um, stuttering and differences. And because. They have helped people who stuttered get, get, get, get jobs.

So, you know, I wasn't really sure, like I said, you know, I don't live down here in New York city and there's lots of other people like George, or, you know, at the time we had Hyatt Goldstein with us, she had also helped with the, you know, the stuttering one-on-one no, there are women who stutters is also an exceptional speech language pathologist, and test her with stuttered.

Talk that Tom. Yup. She is so, so I said, why don't you ask one of these folks that are already down here? He said, no, I want you because you like commanded the room. You, you, you show, you show, you, show people how effective community communicator, um, um, can be even with. And so. To make the longer story short, I did wind up going down to New York city, um, four or five months later and met with the, um, with the mayor's staff and gave them I'm a stuttering one, one, one Oh one, uh, session.

And it was just kind of neat because it just kinda shows like. When you do amplify stuff, start stuttering and talk about it often. You never know who's listening and you never know the M M M M impact of, um, you, me just being courageous enough to get up there and, and, and communicate and not. How stuttering limit or define you.

But as my blog says, make room for it and still be able to talk about whatever, whatever the topic is at hand. Wow. I just want to, if I make, can I share a few, uh, just things you sparked in my mind, first of all, here's the thing I tell people often, not as much with stuttering earlier on in the journey, um, because I think it's, it's too much sort of a cliche and it's, it's not.

Appropriately at the wrong time, but let's say with AVD, for example, which is something unlike borderline ADV, borderline dyslexic, um, sometimes your kryptonite can be your superpower to the coin. And so here you are and we're going to get to it that it hasn't always been this way. No, it hasn't. Yeah. Out of much experience of, of challenge and grit.

Um, and things that we wouldn't necessarily wish upon anyone else, but things you've lived through here you are today. And the very thing that some might say is that the merit or a kryptonite weak spot in your communication ultimately led you to leverage and to highlight, um, the things that make you the great communicator you are today.

Because for someone who's fluent, the words are a penny a minute. Um, I don't want to stutters, you grew up learning that words are precious. And you choose your word when you speak with courage and you speak with strength. And I think of it as like word economy, you know, for me words are cheap and for someone who stutters sometimes it's not that way.

And so when you do ultimately have the courage or do your thing and just say what you have to say, you don't, you don't, uh, you don't do it callously. You do it. Sometimes it's more deliberate. Intentionality. And I think that's what makes some people who stutter, such incredible communicators. So I think for anyone listening, if that resonates the idea that your kryptonite can become a superpower and continue to be a kryptonite, it can be two things at once.

That's one thought the other thought, um, it struck me was I love what you do and that as the person in, across the journey and kind of got to a certain. Barrier boundary river and somehow got across the river. There's a beautiful story. I think I've told before here that, uh, there's a story told the guy gets to the river and he's kind of like mulling over.

What's he going to do is going to turn around and he's trying to get to like go around it. Ultimately he builds some hodgepodge bridge and he gets across the river and people watching him are like, ah, good for you. Go on with your journey. And he turns around and he starts to reinforce the bridge. He built that helped him cross the river.

And people said, what are you doing? Why are you going that backwards? Am I going backwards? They're going to be other people that are going to come to that riverbank. We're going to need to cross the river. And if I can reinforce that for them, they'll be able to cross with a little bit more ease, a little bit more support than I did.

And that's what I think of you and what you're doing. And so I just had the utmost respect and the third thing that I would say, and then transition into your story. The third thing second. Processing give you one moment.

Um, second,

if it's worthwhile, that will come back to me. Um, tell me, so tell us, I know a little bit, but, um, Can you share with us some of those challenges that you endured that have kind of shaped who you are today and what makes you do what you do? What's the passionate devotion. Um, cause I think it's important to highlight that, you know, some of the people I'm speaking to are further along in the journey and some people listening might be parents or speech therapists or young people or young adults who are in a very raw, challenging, dark, heavy place.

And one shouldn't think that it's peaches and cream or that there's some kind of a panacea over here, but rather it's through these stories of openness and honesty that we can shed some light that what can be dark and become light and what can be heavy, can become lighter. Um, and, and through different stories, women's stories, men's stories and people who are black people's stories and all kinds of stories, more stories we share, we can borrow and steal.

A little bit of wisdom, a little bit of light and quick and create opportunities. So you're really passionate about this employment project. And I know that that's not just by accident, so. Can you share with us what are the experiences you've lived and, you know, or the experiences of other people who stuttered with regards to employment and discrimination and so on.

And some of the lessons learned that you can pass on. So, so, so yeah, I've had, I've had some of those dark place place, places that, that, that you, that you refer to, um, for a very long time, too long of a time, I was very covert. Um, and, and, um, you know, for those of you that maybe are not aware of what covert is, I was one of those that used every Trek that, that, that I could to, to pass as fluent.

Um, and for a long time, I was very, very success successful at, at that. Um, but as I got older, I began to see that the tricks and the crutches, and essentially the avoidance avoidance that I used just weren't working as well as they had previously. Um, so I have been in a long time job. Um, I bet I'd been in this job for about 20 years and for the most part, my stutter stutter, stuttering was.

Um, controlled. Uh, I was quiet. I was shy. I let people believe, believe that I was happy be being, being that person, but in no way, shape or form, was that me? Um, I was fine. I was desperately trying to find a way out of this. Fake persona Sona that I had create, create, create it for myself. And you know, for another time, um, I can talk about the clear demarcation line I had between fake Pam and real Pam.

But at that job, Um, I was fired after 21 years. Um, and the reason why was for my communication was, was, was, was poor. And that I was not a good role role model for the youth that I worked, worked, worked with because my stuttering was starting to come, come out. Um, and I had a. A director above, above, above me that, um, didn't like me anyway, which is fine.

I mean, that's going to happen. Um, but we, but, but he. He was, we were like, um, uh, oil and water. We, it, it just, it, it just did not work. So one day I was called in to the center director's office. This manager was there, the HR person, person was there. And, you know, I saw, I saw the handwriting on the wall and, and, and, and, and I, I, I was dismissed and.

I was escorted down to my office, feeling like a criminal, um, had to pack a ball, all, all my things. It was a, it was a horribly traumatic event. Um, and staff and students. This was the middle of the day staff and students saw what was hap happening. And I remember a co a colleague coming up to me and with, with whispering to me, It's not about your stuttering, right?

That's not why you were let, let, let let go. Right. And that kind of like struck me for a minute. Like, wait, somebody knew, somebody knows at work that I, that I, that I stuttered because I had thought I had covered it up well, or, you know, I thought I had covered it better.

Right. Great. And, and so when I mentioned, um, you know, I was searching for a way out, well, the way found me, um, you know, and getting, getting, getting fired was like that, that pivot moment, moment, um, that led me to do a Google search on stuttering for the first time ever in, in, in, in my life. Um, And I set out on this, uh, advent adventure to finally figure out a way to come to terms, terms, terms with this, um, for listeners, um, I did file a complaint of discrimination with the EEOC.

Um, I retained an attorney, an attorney, um, because I felt like I'd been fired for, and, and ADA protected, discriminate, discrim discrimination. Um, it was a very long process process, uh, two and a half years. Um, ultimately, uh, yeah, and, and that two and a half years, um, made it very difficult for me to recover and move, move, move on with, with my life.

Um, but for the longest time I felt guilty. I felt it was my fault for how having, having been, been, been fired because I was consumed with, if I had only been open about, about, about stuttering, you know, it wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have been fired. And that was one of the layers yeah. In my onion that needed to be peeled, um, with the lawsuit and whatnot.

I got, I, I was awarded a settlement. And that I was happy with that because that essentially proved my point. They wouldn't have, you know, they wouldn't have agreed to a settlement, had they not believe that wrong, wrong. Um, so I was happy with that. It was like a victim, a victim of victory, what I had the right learn how to live my life and yeah.

Shed not under, not undercover. Real the real, the real version of the authentic Pamela Merck. Right, right. Um, and that, and that, and that, and that was, it's a tough road. Um, you know, so, uh, suddenly getting up the next day with no job, um, you know, I had, I had, I had, I had to figure out, you know, what, what, what was I going to do?

Because I was ready. To be authentic and, and come, come, come clean with me self and to, to the world. Um, but I didn't know how to do that. So when I Googled started stuttering, um, I found that there was a local chapter of the national stuttering association in my backyard. Like 15 minutes away. And had I known, known that then they found you and found you all the, all the seeds were planted.

And when you weren't ready to take the step. And of course, this is only in hindsight, you know, your employer kind of pushed you to the edge, pushed you to your rock bottom, to force you into a very unpleasant, but very pivotal experience. My father, that's what I was going to say. My father pops on a little earlier by accident, which was such a treat.

And so characteristic of him, um, th th th the, the film, the documentary film, transcending stuttery insight story for anyone that wants to understand more freely available on our website, Schneider speech.com/movies, the themes in the film. Are not contrived. They're, they're really born out of the stories of people who stutter.

And my father filmed authentically, as people went through processes, he had a video camera before that was a thing and video everything, and then put it together into a 20 something minutes film. I mentioned it is that it's uncanny and it's powerful and it's, it's perfect. Particularly insightful for individuals, for families and for therapists.

To tune into some of the common themes. And so in two previous conversations like this, Pam, uh, Richard Stevens said the exact same thing. He was living, uh, a half a smaller, a different, a disconnected version of himself. Um, and a, a situation of somewhat of an embarrassing situation led him to step out of the room, go for a drive and say, that's it.

I can't go on like this. And sometimes people get there on their own. Sometimes young people get there and have a pivotal decision. I think Michael, even in the film says, I raised my, I didn't raise my hand. And I knew I was the only one that had the answer, but I didn't raise my hand cause I was scared this better, but I felt frustrated with myself.

And what you're saying is the initial feeling of like, I should have raised my hand and then the, I should have, should have raised my hand, you know, the shit I could have my line for that, which I don't say everywhere, you got to stop shooting on yourself. You can't shut it should all the time, but what a universal message.

And so for you, as daunting, as jarring, as challenging, as exhausting as whatever that experience was today, you look at it and you say, well, I didn't make the step step came to me. And then. You just do a Google search and you find out that the support that maybe could be so transformative wasn't miles away, it wasn't the mayor's office downstate.

It was in your backyard. And that's just a plug for the NSA. What they've done with, with chapters spanning the entire, you know, 50 States, I think, I don't know, but really creating satellites, a network of these support groups. And there's so many other great organizations with the NSA is definitely the leader in this space.

Of support groups around the country currently transitioned on to zoom wherever you are, you can be connected. Um, and there are others that are online. I think you were host a hostess of, uh, stutter, social, which was built on the platform, Google hangout, uh, which was an international and continues to be an international regular schedule.

Have support meetings run by people that are on different time zones so that people around the world it's convenient. One in login, a brilliant, brilliant platform. Daniel Rossi, who is one of the people that was in a conversation early on, it was one of the founders. Um, David resonay who's beatboxing. I love other and many others involved.

And Pamela was one of the hosts for many, many years. So fascinating. Right? And so like all these opportunities that exist, sometimes you find it. Sometimes it finds you any, any parting wisdom just to round out this first conversation. Parting wisdom hopes, dreams.

Well, are we still there?

I think I lost. Okay. You're back. You were frozen for a minute. That means that stuttering, zoom, stuttering. So you just hang in. So I guess the final, the final, the final words, um, um, uh, in regards to that experience was that I had promised myself, I made a pact with myself that somehow, someday I would use that experience to.

Help other, other, other people in their careers. Um, you know, I would share that experience and help people, people realize that yeah, discrimination exists. Yeah. It can be tough in the work, in the work in the workplace, but there are people, there are resources that can, can, can help you have, um, successful.

Career out, out outcomes. And, um, I was able to do that. I was able to, to, you know, uh, put that, put that, put that experience in place and help and help and help create and deliver we've thought her at work. Um, So it was a promise that I made to myself, uh, 12 years ago that, uh, for, you know, four years ago, that was the platform that I ran on to be.

You get on the board of direct, direct, direct directors and it's worked and I'm in, and M I'm really happy that I've kind of like come full circle, um, from where I was to who, who I am today.

I would just say with the greatest admiration and appreciation, you've made good on that promise. And then some, and you should be blessed with a lot of health and strength to continue for many, many years to come to continue it. You have so much to offer. You've already done so much and to just continue to build on that and, you know, build more bridges for others in their private life and others who.

We want to be as innovative and active as you are. I know Mark Linsky gave you a shout out here in the comments, you know, he's rocking on tic doc. I don't think you could do that the way he does. Everybody's got their own contribution. If you haven't checked out, Mark Wenski on tick-tock, you're missing out on some, some humor, some great entertainment, some great insights and great advocacy.

Um, and he's using that platform in a way. That's. Absolutely brilliant. And in a way that only he could do it as he does. So everybody's got their thing, but that will, I'm so grateful. I want to thank you. And I hope we'll have more conversations like this. There's more you have to share and there's more people want to hear.

So if you like this, give it a like, share it comments, Pamela. We'll definitely follow that and get back to it. If there's anything you're interested in, in the, we work. A project at the NSA. I've put the link in the comments. You can also contact the NSA through the website, stutter.org. You can check out Pamela's podcast, Pamela's blog, all of those are linked and in the description and also in the comments.

And if there's anything you're interested in seeing what we're doing. Schneider's speech.com on the homepage. I would direct you to the blog page has all the previous conversations and up over there, you can also go there for buttons there for different options, whether it's looking for private therapy, the online course for people who stutter for teens and adults, or the group therapy for teens and adults, as well as free events that you can click on any of those four options, whatever you're looking for, or if we can help you or connect you in any way.

The NSA is, is, is an address that everyone needs to know about. If you're a person who stutters take advantage, there's tons of material resources and, and also, you know, support groups and information of how to connect to community community is so important, always and even more so I'm grateful for family taking the time and for all you do.

Yeah. And just, and just one last thought I am, she's going to have the final, final words. Take us home. Yeah. So you can find my blog and podcast at stutter, rock star.com. And that's also my Twitter handle at stutter rockstar. Um, so, so you can find me in a lot of places and I, and, and I, I would be happy if he did.

And I want to apologize. I didn't give proper credit when I called you the rock star. That's totally where it came from, but I didn't give credit. So the handle's stutter rockstar is the way to go. And so Pamela again, where can people reach you just to kind of hit that one more time? Yeah. I'm at stutter rockstar on Twitter and www dot stutter, rock star.com.

Uh, for my blog and the pod, a podcast, there are certain people who are truly pivotal. In a community and in a movement. And Pam was one of those people and the material on the blogs and the podcast is something that stands the test of time. It's relevant as much today as it was when she recorded the first and second recordings.

That's, what's great about evergreen content and, uh, thank you Pamela, for everything you do. I hope everyone takes advantage of everything you've put out there and the whole community. Thanks a lot. We shouldn't be ready. Awesome. Awesome day. And again, thank you. Thank you for having me. My pleasure, our honored.