#53 Rosalee Shenker with Michael Turner (The Way We Talk)
“And as far as I’ve come, it’s like when I stutter in front of someone still, I don’t know, and like lose control. Like I’m kind of right back there in my eight year old self, you know, it’s like that feeling is always right on the surface that like I’ve messed up or that like, I’m not, you know, or like, which does wrong.”
BIO
Michael Turner is the creator of The Way We Talk, an award-winning autobiographical documentary that has screened around the world and contributed toward a paradigm shift in how stuttering is perceived. His second feature, Monument, about memory, memorialization, and meaning, is currently in production. He lives with his wife and daughter in rural Oregon.
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00-9:00- opening, stuttering is like a river
9:00-18:00- reading "Stuttering is like River" and reflections around it; naming the ghost/monster
18:00- 24:00- stuttering openly and knowing what that feels like
24:00-57:14- taking the risk; successes and failures in life; staying connected; reflections on family with movie
57:14-1:07:32 -closing remarks
RESOURCE LIST
MORE QUOTES
“I felt like stuttering was like a pretty big deal until I became a parent.
And then it's like, there's just so much else.” - Michael Turner
“The journey doesn't end when the movie ends” - Michael Turner
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: Cause then we'll see it on the
Michael Turner: top there.
Uri Schneider: Okay. All right. What a treat, you know, it's early morning in Oregon and all I know about Oregon is that it's another state that I haven't been able to visit. So this week I've been able to get to Nebraska and, um, other places I don't get to, but to be with you Michael Turner in Oregon, and to know what you did to make this happen, to have connectivity and power and what you've all been through with the fires and just everything.
It's, um, it's a real lesson in perseverance. You're walking less than a perseverance and, uh, it's a treat to have you. So my name is Lori Schneider. This is transcending stuttering with a reach night, or you can check it out at the podcasts or anywhere that you want to see things. Um, Michael is. Is going to be awesome.
He is awesome. And this conversation is going to shed a lot of light for those of you that don't know, Michael Turner is a creator of the way we talk was an award-winning autobiographical documentary screens around the world and contributed towards a paradigm shift and how stuttering is perceived. His second feature, which he's working on.
And I'll share a little bit, it's called monument it's about memory and memorialization and meaning it's currently in production. He lives with his wife, Alyssa and his daughter OSA, not just in Oregon, but in rural Oregon is a big treat. Michael. Thanks for joining us. What would you like people to know about you?
It's not in the bio? Well, I
Michael Turner: stutter, I didn't mention that. Um, And, uh, yeah, just very happy to be here. I, uh, I hope you can make it out to Oregon one day.
Uri Schneider: We'd love to have you, Glen. Thank you. You're on my hit list in Oregon. I have two people I have to see it's you and my friend Glenn, because, um, Waybright and then Waybright a, is there another Glen, Oregon must be, but not for my, on my radar.
So Glen and I have shared in previous conversations, Glen and I were together. We were roommates, uh, in the stuttering foundation workshop on the East coast. That's in Boston. It was one of the most profound learning experiences. And I think it had a lot to do with the people that came over from England to do the training, uh, Francis cook and Lily Butterball from the Pailin center in London.
And I thank them. And I thank Jane Frazier for this opportunity of a full immersion for five days. But I think my roommate Glenn Waybright had something to do with it. Um, and I remember, I think it was day two. Every time I watch your film, Mike, I'm jealous of the scene where you cook camping and you get out on the water because Glen and I went out on the water together.
It was the Charles river in Boston. And he said to me, this is good, but this is nothing like Pacific coast. Why kayak? And you got to get out there. So it's still on my bucket list. Um, it definitely doesn't compare with when my dad thought it would be a good idea for us to go kayaking. In New York city Harper around the statue of Liberty, or like ducking and dodging these massive Staten Island ferries.
And wow. That was the most frightening thing in my life. So I think I'm ready to brave the Pacific kayaking with Glenn as possible.
Michael Turner: You sound ready? Well, uh, yeah, Glen actually, you know, while I was making that movie, Glen dropped a lot of wisdom on me that I still think about every day. And I would love to share with you later too.
It's like he, uh, well, yeah, I guess I'll just go. I just dive right into it. Um, Glenn said something that is like still kind of the mantra. I think of how I have, how I deal with my own stuttering, which is like, um, he said that he tells his kids that he works with too. Imagine that they're like an amateur naturalist with their stuttering, like a birdwatcher and that he just has them like, imagine that that each stuttering moment basically is like a bird that comes and lands on a branch and you just sit there and watch it without emotion.
Just like, what kind of bird is this? What color is it? Like, how does it exist? And then it flies away and there's no need to like attach shame to it or any of these other feelings. It's just something that happens. It's like a natural phenomenon. And so that's something that I really try and hold on to you in my everyday life.
That's awesome.
Uri Schneider: And of course you mentioned shame. Yeah. So other truth bombs or wisdom bombs from Glenn, this is a great moment to share. And also how that relates to something you told me kind of between the time we scheduled this and getting on this morning, you shared with me here, your interest in that topic of shame and kind of diving in.
And it's certainly a theme, you know, in 2004, in the film transcending, stuttering that we put out, my father chose that as one of the chapters, as kind of a universal piece from all these people's stories, from every sort of background and every sort of identity people who stutter going through a phase of feeling shame, or feeling like, and my father says it in the film, he says, you know, guilty is feeling like you did something wrong and shame is feeling like you are wrong.
Right. That's a very powerful piece. And it comes through the stories of so many people. In that documentary. And I think it relates to people who don't stutter as well, but certainly in the stuttering journey, but from Glen or from shame, if you wanted to just jump into that, I know you were, you were telling me how you're diving into that.
Yeah. It's like
Michael Turner: a, yeah. It's like a pretty big topic. Like I, like, I, like, I think, I think I've just kinda been, uh, thinking a lot lately about like the sort of outsized role that shames had in my life even now, you know, it's like, and after making that movie and, um, becoming a dad and just like life, just all of a sudden, it's not something out there in the future any more.
It's like, it's something that you're just experiencing every day. And it's just like a moment to moment thing, you know, like Parenthood, um, and, uh, I think like it's forced me to confront just how much shame still plays in to my life when I stutter. And just especially in the past, you know, like having a kid, like my daughter is now four and is doing some stuttering.
And like, I read this book to her actually, which is kind of how all of this started, which is called. I talk like a river. You may have read that one. It's like a new kid's book about stuttering.
Uri Schneider: We recently updated our list of the best books on stuttering and certainly that kind of prominent spot specifically for kids, but for anybody.
But yeah, if you want to fill us in on what that book means, how it resonates for you and how your daughter received it, that'd be great. Yeah,
Michael Turner: sure. Like, um, I, to be honest, I haven't even read it to her yet. Uh, one of my friends here in town, um, just like a really nice guy. He bought it for me. He doesn't stutter.
Um, I'm not even sure if I'd really talked with him that much about stuttering, but he bought me this book for my daughter and I was really moved by that. I just was kind of blown away that he had gone out of his way to like, find a book about stuttering. Um, and, uh, I had asked my daughter one night actually during our power outage a couple weeks ago, if you know, she wanted to read it.
And she was like, no, I want Bernstein bears. He knows like, okay. And so I'd read her the books that she liked. She fell us. Sleep. And then I ended up reading this book by myself with like a flashlight, just in this dark house and just had like a extremely emotional experience, like halfway through. I was just like sobbing and I, you know, my wife came down and we kind of talked about it.
I finished the book and really had like a, almost like a cleansing, like emotional experience, um, which I was not expecting. Like, I think since I have made the way we talk and since becoming a dad, I've kind of like, not like avoided stuttering, um, media, but just like, haven't really had like an interest in like, um, watching stuff about stuttering or reading stuff about it.
Like I making that movie, I was like always consuming stuff. You know, like I was leader of the, um, stuttering support group here in Portland and like making the movie and interviewing people all the time. And it was just like, This is this chapter of my life that I've been excited to kind of like try and leave it in the past.
But, you know, the past isn't even past as Faulkner said. And like, I feel like, uh, this book really showed me that it was still like extremely raw and like, thinking about how my daughter is growing up and like how I grew up, you know, the book it's about this boy who stutters, just having like a tough speech day in school and his father comes and picks them up and takes them to the river to just have some quiet time and like,
Uri Schneider: Just like frame this, just to frame this for people that are listening or watching drop your comments, your likes.
If you're listening on a podcast, transcending, stuttering, subscribe, drop review. But I think what Mike's about to drop on us is as a person who grew up with a stutter that wasn't spoken about, that was in the family. And if you've seen the film, the way we talk, it was like a family, uh, elephant in the room.
And I think the line in the film that Michael narrates, which is absolutely magnificent, it says, uh, it was as if, if we didn't talk about it, it would just disappear. But I got into my twenties and I realized it wasn't disappearing. I think I needed to figure out face this thing, touch this thing, name, this thing.
So I think what Mike's about to tell us is how a person who up there's reading this book that has a way, yeah. This father taking this kid down to the river and the way he talks about it, federal ring, uh, I think what made you cry? It was probably, it was so striking because it was different. Then the way stuttering was touched or not touched avoided or mentioned or alluded to in your childhood and what you would hope for them to think.
You'd read it to your daughter. I just think that contrast that just wants to set the scene. You know, so often it's, this is this elephant in the room and, uh, every, everything, every study in psychology and everything in the latest that we know in speech language pathology tells us the healthiest thing for everybody, adults and children is to name the ghost to name the monster in the closet.
And the minute you name it, you relieve the fear and you give power to the person. Who's scared of that monster in the closet, where that stuttered looking over their shoulder, coming at the most inconvenient times. But when you avoid it, when you try to sweep it under the rug, when you dance around it, and it's kind of like this elephant in the room, it is what it is.
Um, but if we can name it, so I guess that's right. Am I, am I on the right track? Yeah.
Michael Turner: Yeah. That's very well said. Um, yeah, I mean, just to do a quick personal detour about that also it's like, you know, like, I think it's a common experience, but like I never even Googled what stuttering was until I was like, twenty-five, you know, the like thought that if I had like typed it into the computer and like hit search, it would like, you know, acknowledge that I stuttered, which was something I just wasn't able to say or really even think.
And I think like that kind of is something that I've kind of been thinking about a lot is like, what, what does that do to a person when, um,
like you're working so hard to deny this central emotional experience in your life, like working so hard to act like it's not there and like, how does that. Effect, um, just the way you interact with your self and like your emotional awareness. Um, I think it was really detrimental, but, um, I think you're still there, uh, kind of lost the picture, but, um, but yeah, I'll just keep going.
Um, so I
Uri Schneider: am, so here, I'm just relocating to a better sound space, but yeah, that experience of what it was that made you kind of have that cleansing experience as an adult reading this illustrated book. Yeah.
Michael Turner: That's what that was like. Well, yeah, it was just like a really emotionally overwhelming experience and kind of just show that there was still this raw nerve around stuttering and like how I was brought up, which as you said, Um, stuttering wasn't like completely not talked about, but it was kind of like talked about in like a speech therapy setting where like, you know, I was giving tools in speech therapy, um, to practice and, you know, my mom would remind me of these tools if I was having like a, you know, like particularly tough stuttering day.
But, um, I think what affected me about this book was just like the fact that, um, this kid's dad was able to just like take him to a quiet place and they could just like talk at their own pace, you know? And if like, if the kid wanted to be quiet, that was okay. You know, the dad makes some OBS. It's innovations about how his son's speeches like this river.
And just, just like you were saying to like name the ghost, you know, like this is like just how it is. And I think what was so overwhelming was just like the thought of just what it would have been like to have someone like that in my own life, as a kid. And just how like, um, that failure never appeared or like, I just didn't quite have that.
And, um, you know, I think if my daughter stutters, she's going to be grown up in a different environment, you know, with like me and Glen, who who's still like a part of my life and, and, uh, other friends of mine from making that movie. Um, but like, I think for me too, it's still this element of shame of like, You know, even after doing that.
And, uh, as far as I've come, it's like when I stutter in front of someone still, I don't know, and like lose control. Like I'm kind of right back there in my eight year old self, you know, it's like that feeling is always right on the surface that like, um, I've messed up or that like, I'm not, you know, or like, um, they're like, which does wrong.
I know, like, in my, like in my mind, I know it's wrong because I've met so many people ghost stutter now. And I like love hearing stuttering. Like I love talking with people who stutter. Um, I love what it brings to a con for station and like, um, I just love the sound in it, but for me, it's like, it's very hard to escape that, feeling that when I do it, it's wrong.
I'm wrong. And, um, there's this like still this like perceived gain from hiding it, you know, like, Oh, if I just hide it, I can like, you know, be normal or like seem normal to this person, which I have told myself for so long is some kind of gain, you know, like rather than just being seen as who I am. And like, I think it's, it's how tough that's been.
Has I think really shown me like how deeply shame is ingrained in me from my childhood of stuttering.
Uri Schneider: Well, I just want to say for you and for anyone that was there, uh, I think it was two weeks ago, uh, Nathan mallet, petty, and a stuttering scholarship Alliance is doing this film festival stuttering film festival, this coming Sunday screening.
Um, John Gomez is film, which is going to be amazing. Um, but when you screened your film, I was, I've seen it before and every time I see it, it touches another place for me and James harden was James Hayden was there, James harden, James Hayden was there. Who's someone who's from new Orleans and I'll be speaking with him next week.
And he's an amazing person in the centering community. But everybody resonated with how you portrayed in that film, the feeling of like getting to a point in your life and having never been able to meet someone who stutters or to hear stuttering and kind of like, I think for any of us to go that long with a certain way of dealing with things, it's going to be, it's going to be some time and it may always play a small part, like how we react to things.
But what I, two things I think are fascinating, Michael, is that like on the one hand, people look at you and like you made a movie about stuttering. You must have no shame, you know, you must have arrived. You must have gotten to the point where like, you know, so I think on the one hand, it's fascinating to listen to you talk about that, that on the one hand, yeah.
You go around screening a film that you narrated in your own voice about maybe one of the more sensitive topics in your life. One of the topics that many people would shy away from, or be shamed away from, uh, and at the same time, it still comes up for you. I think that's, that's very real. I think people think of like a very binary way of thinking.
Like either you have shame or you don't either you're fearless or you're totally shame driven. And I think it's far more nuanced than that. And the other thing that's hitting me is, um,
Just, you know, it's real, it's real. And the idea that I think of is parents with kids and people themselves earlier today, someone called me and what are your success rates and how do you think you're going to do this? And I said, I have enough humility and knowledge to know that I don't project success rates.
You know, past performance, both have success and failure does not dictate what we can do in the future. Both success and failure do not dictate what we can do in the future. Um, I have to be humble and I have to recognize I've never met you, you know, but I have this line that I like. I think a lot of people get stuck in the saying that's very popular practice makes perfect practice does not make perfect people.
If you practice your golf, swing, your, throw, your pitch, your swing, whatever, in a way that's not productive and you just keep practicing it that way. It ain't going to become perfect. It will become permanent practice becomes permanent and the courage muscle of exercising courage in the face of fear that can become stronger.
That can become more permanent, but there's always that little piece in there. Isn't there, like from all of the experiences of practicing the feeling of shame of practicing and rehearsing, the self-talk or hearing from others, you shouldn't talk like that. You're not measuring up. You're not good enough.
You should do better. You could do better. Like those voices have been ingrained with repetition. So they're pretty much, you know, ingrained that the good part is we can practice equal and opposite messages, equal and opposite reactions and habits and responses. And we may get them to a place where they're just stronger.
We may get to the place where they're second nature. But I just want to honor and appreciate the fact that you're talking about. Yeah. You made a film, you traveled around the world, screening the film, talking about the film and at the same time, you're still a human being and uh, your past and your future kind of bump into each other in the present.
Sometimes that's kind of human.
Michael Turner: Yeah. You're very, yeah, that's very well said. Um, beautiful. Yeah. I think like with a lot of this stuff, uh, if I let a day go by and not stay mindful about it, like I'm right back, that's queer one again. Um, I think, uh, or maybe not a day, but like, you know, like I think making the movie gave me some, like, I mean, like.
I think I'm a lot farther along than where I was, which is like not Googling, centering, you know, like never acknowledging it openly. Um, you know, I think I've come a long way from that, but I think like there's a big difference. This is actually what I heard at that first NSA conference I went to when you and I met on the basketball court.
Um,
Uri Schneider: if you haven't noticed, I made a lot of people on the basketball court, but I seem to pick the wrong fights. You know what I'm saying? The guys who are even taller than me and more skilled than me and I start doing like trash talk, like white men, can't jump and move bad
Michael Turner: move. Uh, but yeah, I remember at that conference, there was one night when my friend Ian and I were just hanging out with like other people who stutter and someone who I'll never know who it was.
I don't think like it was dark. Um, and just someone in this little group of people. Said, uh, there's a big difference between being able to talk about stuttering openly in front of people and openly stuttering in front of people. And for some reason, like that insight has only grown as I've gotten really comfortable, like here, you know, like talking about stuttering, but the, but the, but the thought of going out into the community and like when someone asks me a question to like openly S yeah.
In front of them, you know, to like show that, um, that kind of like intimate, naked moment, um, which people with, because it like gives that person like an opportunity to either like, um, hurt you or bond with you. And. Usually, I think that bond happens if I'm conscious of it and I'm like intending that to happen, you know, and encouraging that and open to that.
Um, and kinda not like closed off, like, okay, here's like a stuttering moment coming. I'm going to like close off and just get through it or use my like, well, whatever techniques I have to make it go away faster. But to instead just like Glen had said, you know, to be, to be that a birdwatcher and just like, feel it coming on, stay with it, observing it, and then just letting it go.
Um, you know, if I can stay in that moment, I think like
Michael Turner: something good is going to happen or like the person I'm talking to is going to have like some little understanding about stuttering that they didn't have about like who I am. Even like my friend who got me that book, like I talked like a river it's like, this is someone who maybe had felt connected with me because I stuttered or for many reasons, but felt comfortable enough to present me with this book that was so affecting for me.
And that I am excited to read with my daughter, but I can get through it without sobbing openly. And yeah, it's just a daily practice
Uri Schneider: still. I just wanted to highlight something you said there, if I can stay in that moment, something good is going to happen. And it. What can I say? I think of a football quarter back.
It's like you got to stay in the pocket. You have a bunch of very large people that are all very committed to knocking you out, not just knocking you down, but knocking you out. And the pocket is collapsing. And, and I think in me I'm while you're descramble man, or just toss it to the sidelines, intentional grounding, I'll take it.
No problem. But the scariest thing would be like, hang in the pocket and trust. I might get knocked down, but more likely than not. I got a couple of big guys on my side that are going to protect me for long enough for something to open up. And if I just stay present and I screened the field, something good is going to happen.
I love that. Um, and what I wanted to say before that I didn't say is that you should know. And for anybody that hasn't made their own movie about stuttering, go for it. And if you haven't screened your movie or shared your poetry, share it, the world would be better for it. But listening to you narrate the film.
Like I could listen all day long. And for me, I, you know, I find it. I don't know how to describe it as someone who doesn't stutter. I find it very calming to listen at that level where you're listening beyond the cadence, you're really hanging on people's words and in a way, as I'm doing now, I'm not stuttering.
But the more time that comes between the words you process deeper, you lean in harder and you really pay attention. And I think it takes the trust of the dyad. It takes the trust of the two people. It'd be connected in that. And obviously you have to screen. People who aren't giving you that. But, um, yeah, the saddest thing for me is when the person on the other side bales out because their own conditioning or their own thoughts and feelings.
And I think for me to recognize, I got to regulate a little bit, not in a patronizing way or any kind of whatever, but in a sincere way, you know, I can run New York city culture and speed, and then I can dial in, you know, and, and, uh, connect. And so for me, my God, I just want to tell you that that night, a week and a half ago, I could have listened to in the film and in the Q and a forever, it just made me that much more grateful that we were going to have this chat.
Um, and I think it's important for people who stutter to hear that, because I think that, that the voice of, yeah, they're not gonna listen, they're, they're not gonna have the time. They're not going to give me the time. Like that story is so loud. And I just want to amplify and give people some evidence that it's, as, as you said, More often than not.
If you take the risk, good things will happen. Yeah, of course. There'll be times that people are idiots and nasty and unkind, but you know what that happens to all of us, even people who don't stutter or people who are not women or people who are not a minority or have different color skin, or don't have the same intelligence or don't have the same wealth, you know, it happens to everybody at some point.
But if you don't ask the answer's always no. And if you ask, Hey, you never know, as they say in New York lotto. Um, so what was surprising to you? What were some interesting opportunities that emerged or interesting experiences, feelings, new things that grew inside of you as a result of putting that film out there?
Cause that was a huge step of, of courage, vulnerability, creativity, stepping into the unknown. Um, was there and then I'm sure you had thoughts of like, what it would do for you. Maybe there were some surprises too, like, uh, unseen upsides, and then we could talk about the new film that you're working on.
Cause I know you're really invested in that too.
Michael Turner: Yeah. Like, you know, this is something I talked about at that, um, Q and a like that you were talking about too, but I think like, um, I guess I had this idea that, uh, when I finished the movie, it would be like a complete cycle.
Uri Schneider: Um,
Michael Turner: or like I would come to some new understanding, which I guess is like how life works, you know, it's like, and making a movie is so cool.
Kind of like you are saying, you know, if anyone out there who stutters is working on a movie or like poetry or, um, any kind of way to, uh, express their experiences, the like world would be richer for it, but you would be richer for it because. I think just like, you know, it's like, that was like my first real, like big scale, personal film project.
And it just kind of started, you know, after I had gone to that, you know, my like first Portland stuttering group meeting, and I met this guy there, Ian, who ended up being like a main character in the movie, I just kind of asked him afterwards. I was like, Hey, can I like come over to your house with a camera and like talk to you about this stuff.
Just cause like I wanted to talk to him about it. And like the camera just gave me an excuse to, um, approach someone and um, to, to even like think back on where I was at that point and like where I ended up, um, you know, to like, like at, uh, talking to the sense I have a stuttering group and Chapin, or like talking with my own family openly about it, which was like ultimately the most emotional part for me.
Um, my, you know, my brother and my mom who also stutter, who like, you know, we had never talked about it and like, um, so it was like a journey, but the journey doesn't end when the movie ends, you know, it's like, like a movie is kind of like a 2d cartoon of your life almost where like, you have to kind of compress the kind of extremely complicated nuanced experience of like your everyday life into something that's like accessible to other people and like into a story basically.
And all of the new, like, I mean, I like made it as deep and nuanced as I could. And I felt like, you know, draft after draft, you can like add in more or like, you know, you cut out, what's not important. You can kind of take what's left and like deepen it. And, um, but you know, the like life is always way messier.
And, um, I think like the messiness has continued completely, you know, the messiness of life never stops. And, um, just being like a dad and like still avoiding, centering all the time, like using tricks that get out of it, you know, like my, there was one point where like, my wife was like, you, like, you should just stutter more openly, you know, because our daughter is hearing this.
And like, for some reason that was hard to hear, um, that I had to be like
Uri Schneider: always, it's always hard to hear what our wives and spouses have to tell us. Yeah, well, but that's powerful. We should all be blessed. We should all be fortunate to have a spouse that sends us that message of just be authentic, man.
Just be, you know, and, and I think that's such a blessing for you and for people that feel that you have that in your life just recognize you might not like to hear it sometimes. But, uh, you know, there's an idea in the Kabbalah that says that a spouse, specifically, a wife is an Acer. ConnectTo, it's a, it's a helping relationship.
And it's also a confrontational one. It's one that challenges you and calls you out on your, on your games and on your tricks. And at the same time as a supportive companion and friend, and, uh, it has that duality to it. So we should all find those companions and allies, but, um, that's so honest. So real.
Yeah. What would you, what would your best self wish to tell your daughter? What, like in your best state strongest state, what would you hope to transmit or, or to give to your daughter?
Michael Turner: Well, I think my wife is right in that, like, I, like, I would just want to be able to stutter openly in front of her without shame.
And like, rather than anything I could say to her to just let her see that and like, know me that way. Which I, you know, it's like, I do try and do that, but, um, I'm definitely not perfect. And I fail at it a lot, you know, kind of like you were saying, it's like successes and fail failures that are important and that shape us.
And I think like, you know, when you're, when you're a parent, it's like, those are like always coming, you know? It's like every day it's like really like, Oh, like, you know, I like, it's like, you're raising this little person. Who's like developing their own personality. And like, they're so like curious and like exploring everything.
And like, they're just like learning so much from you every day. And it's like, you know, it's like, uh, like she's a separate person from me with like her own attitudes. You like, I can remember going, you know, my wife is a teacher and I went to her class. One day. And, uh, there were two kids, like a brother and sister in our class who both stuttered.
Uh, and they had like a very like kind of open stutter. And so like, I really wanted to be just be there stuttering openly with all the kids. So like they could hear that. And it was just like, you know, these kids were talking to me and talking to their friends and just like stuttering and like laughing.
And it just seemed like that shame was just, it was much less prevalent in them than when I was that age. I think. I mean, it's always hard to say. And
Uri Schneider: how old, what grade was this? How old were these kids? I
Michael Turner: would say like fourth or fifth grade. And, um, it was, it was just cool to see how, how openly they were stuttering and how openly they were accepted.
It seemed from granted, this was like a pretty superficial. Interaction, but I just hope that, you know, from coming into the class and talking with the kids and like just, they could see that there's like a grown man who still stutters and is like cool with it and is married and has a daughter and like, um, is employed usually.
And like, um, has kind of like made a life for themselves. It seems beautiful in some ways. And so, like,
Uri Schneider: I think it's, I just want to, we talked about it just before we got on we didn't prime and prep anything, but I think the story of people, you know, um, you know, the fears and the shame that they grew up with.
And I think what you spotlighted, just as a side point for parents, for teachers, for therapists to recognize it, doesn't have to be shame. Doesn't have to be part of the journey. There's a lot of things we can do that are the antidotes of that. And reading books, like talking like a river and exposing kids and normalizing.
And de-stigmatizing and demystifying early on, you know, the variety of ways that people look, the variety of ways that people speak is going to open up kids. So there isn't this feeling of everyone's jaws are dropping, you know, so it's about, it's about the culture of the class. It's about the culture of the school, the community, whatever your community looks like, your family looks like, but really normalizing things.
So that the most important thing more than fixing the child's speech is that the child feels that they're perfectly imperfect. You know, that their quirks are delicious, cute, and attractive. I'm thinking of, uh, what's that Robin Williams film, um, Matt Damon, come on. Uh, yeah, good. Well hunting. Right? He says how, like even the quirks, I won't say it, but what his wife did in her sleep was somehow endearing, right?
His wife had these little quirks, but you find it endearing that there are these quirks, but they're on the other side of the quirk. There's like this. Endearment. There's something charismatic. There's something that draws you in. And if kids could just realize that each one is like perfectly imperfect, each one has their own set of strengths and their own set of things that stand out.
And it is what it is like. That's the message we give kids that message. We plant those values. My father always talks about young children, speech therapy or not speech therapy. We've got to work on helping them with whatever the skill set is, but we've also got to work right from the start at planting values, because the values we plant, the comments we make as the child is stuttering.
And as a parent, we're struggling feeling the concern, feeling the pain, feeling the worry, if we can lean in and stay connected in that moment. And in the moment they're stuttering, they're telling us a joke or they're sharing something that they're seeing, that they find fascinating. If we can lean in and say, you tell such funny jokes, You really think you've asked me such great questions.
This is my dad's bread and butter. And that's what we share with parents because when you inoculate a kid with that, and they're just going to keep talking, you're going to keep talking. And of course you can work on making talk and easy, but first it's gotta be playful and it's gotta be fun. It's gotta feel natural.
It can't feel stiff. I think of Glen, it's got to feel like a walk in the woods, you know, but if it feels like walking on a tight rope between two skyscrapers, man, that ain't no fun. And if talking turns into that, Ooh, you don't want to talk too much. You wanna raise your hands? I do think it's striking that those two siblings were, were chatting.
Cause you would know if they were shame-based cause they'd be much quieter and every time they would hit a word they'd stutter on they'd switch a roo or drop out or be like, Oh, Oh, I forgot about it. You know, when you see a kid doing that, we always say the most severe speech impediment is not.
Stuttering is silence. That is the most severe speech impediment. So parents, teachers, educators, speech therapists, people who stutter, just know that, that that's far more severe than, than tripping over words, which is challenging. Let's say that it's challenging for the speakers challenging for parents, but, um, I lost my train, but I knew I wanted to focus on that and just say that like planting values for kids early can spare them unnecessary shame and unnecessary stories that many people grew up with, but many people don't.
And so if you're a parent of a child who stutters or your person who stutters and you're worried about transmitting your experiences to, Oh, that's where I want it to go, uh, that you actually, as a person who stutters, I tell parents of kids who stutter, who themselves stutter. They have an asset because they can take their experience, not to copy paste the tough stuff, but they're better for it.
They're more equipped for it. They're more knowledgeable, they're more in tune. They're more empathic. And they can use that as a superpower parent for that child. And they can use the crucibles of their experience of an asset and parenting that kiddo. But I just wanted to share that a lot of people I meet, they worry about, I don't want to get married.
I don't think anyone would accept me, love me as I am. And I certainly am terrified of raising a child because I know that they might stutter. And you, you mentioned that in the film and then it along, you know, few months later, a few years later, who you are a dad, what was that like for you? Kind of, what was that worry?
And then getting through that worry and then raising your daughter. And I don't know you want to bring us into that, but I think that's a common thread. That's also not explored enough yet about the worry about becoming a parent.
Michael Turner: Yeah. I think like. You know, becoming a parent it's like, I felt like stuttering was like a pretty big deal until I became a parent.
And then it's like, there's just so much else. So that's like, I think probably a lot of new parents experienced this where like the like world suddenly seems so scary, um, that your child has this little, like being that you just brought into the world is going to like, have to navigate this world that, um, yeah.
All of a sudden seems like a terrifying place, um, for real and imagined reasons. And I think like part of that is can, can come back to something like stuttering where like, if my kid does have a, like an issue that makes them feel less than like, you know, picturing like other kids making fun of them or like.
Um, just them having to go through like, experiences that I had, not that you know of, like my childhood was like, like, I think, um, wonderful in like a lot of ways, but just like, you know, it's interesting, like, even with the fires that you had mentioned in Oregon last year, like, um, we had this talk to cause like, you know, we got you backdated from our house.
It was like a very like kind of apocalyptic scene for like a couple of weeks. And, um, we were like, you know, in this like, uh, room and like an Airbnb, just trying to like explain to our daughter, like, you know, that our house could burn down, you know, we might not have like a house to go home to. And she was like, Oh, we'll just make a new house down.
Or like, Oh yeah, we'll just get some like wood and you know, Oh, we need bricks, you know, we'll just make a new house. It's kind of just like. You know, like the like anxiety that me and my wife are feeling like don't like, it doesn't have to be her experience. And I feel that way with what you're saying about stuttering.
It's like just, just the fact that I have shame around it doesn't mean that she's going to have shame around it. Like, or at least not nearly as much, you know, I feel like anytime, like we feel we're like made to feel inadequate. Like I think that feeling of shame does kind of Berlin. And I think anyone who is like, I mean, kids are just brutal.
Like adults are brutal. And I think there's, there's, you know, people are always being singled out for what makes them different, whether it's like a speech impediment or race or anything. And so I think,
Oh, I'm just kinda rambling on, but,
Uri Schneider: um, You're not rambling. You're, you're pouring, pouring forth the authenticity and insight that is uniquely yours. And, um, I was just going to say to amplify what I said before, how I could listen to you all day. And then the feeling of like all of us in front of our parents in front of our kids.
I mean, I remember becoming a dad, I don't stutter. Okay. I got plenty of things that are perfectly imperfect about me and, and are sources of all kinds of narratives growing up and all sorts of concerns that stay with me to some degree. And for the most part, I've, I've worked through a lot, uh, and it took work.
There wasn't speech therapy, but it was no less intense and, and needed some professional help along the way. Um, and those voices are still there. Like you said, it's like a default. I could still go there, but if I'm mindful, my D my, my regular state is much, much stronger and much, much healthier, but if I'm run down.
I'm tired. I'm stressed. Those things are like right there. They just like rear their heads as if they were never knocked out and they're not knocked out, but I have to be mindful, but I wanted to share with you, I shared this link, um, there's this, this poetry slam, and it's also a video it's technically about bullying.
I don't know how to pronounce his name. It's called to this day by Shane poison um, and he was a guy who was bullied and he made, uh, an amazing Ted talk and then a video. And I show this almost every presentation that I give, but what he says, Michael, he says for all of us who were bullied for those of us that were our body shape or the color of our skin or the things we said or whatever it was, we got teased and bullied.
And first of all, we're survivors, you know, if we made it we're survivors and, and sometimes just getting through. Is a win. And some people don't get that. Like just, just, just waking up and doing your thing. Sometimes that's like a very big triumph for people in their personal journeys. But what he says in this poetry, he says for the woman who's, who's got a facial deformity or she's got a different thing on her face.
She's got a beauty Mark that covers half her face and her whole life, she was called, you know, a mistake or like, you know, God designed her and his pen slipped, all kinds of nasty things. He says in the poetry slam, he says to that woman's daughter, when that daughter looks in the dictionary, what's beauty picture of his mom.
Wow. That powerful. And so I think for kids I'm reminded of this all the time, you know, with all the worry that I have, if each day I can try to be the best version of myself that I can be with all the shortcomings that I have to this day, they still look up at like role model or. Dad or man, and I'm that prototype and, and for people who stutter, I think so often there's this inner narrative of what my speech means to me and how acceptable it is and how much I tolerate it and how much I think the world tolerates it.
But as you just demonstrated, you guys are like thinking you have to have this very serious conversation about what it means to lose a home. And you're having that experience with yourselves and your daughter is like, but dad we'll have some bricks. Right. We'll just, we'll just build it up. Like, uh, you know, so kids are so impressionable and I think what you don't realize is Michael you and your wife, what you've given your daughter, like, I would entrust you with my, if I had like souls to dish out, like I would put one in your care, you know what I mean?
Because the sensitivity and the dedication and devotion, like those are the things that you're going to shine through. And the speech pattern, it's almost like why doesn't that other person have those little interruptions in the cadence of their speech? Like, that's weird. Because my dad talks like that.
That's how dad's talk. You know, it's interesting how we can create these impressions of what's normal and what's abnormal and what the heck is normal anyway. Totally.
Michael Turner: Yeah. It's really comfortable.
Uri Schneider: Monument. Tell us about monument. We'll take another five minutes. Tell us about the upcoming film because it's a whole, it's not about stuttering, is it
Michael Turner: okay?
Well, no, it's not. Um, no, but, uh, you know, like the way we talk to me was about my grandpa who stuttered, like, you know, obviously the film kind of is more of like a personal journey, but like when I first dreamed that movie, what I saw was like a picture of my grandpa on this like big movie theater screen.
And just like seeing him this picture of him while like the camera slowly zooms in and like talking about him. And that's kind of like how, how that movie started. Um, and I feel like if there are two things that fed into me as a kid and kind of shaped who I am, it's stuttering, and also being in a family of Holocaust survivors, you know, like going to synagogue every Saturday and like flipping to the back of the prayer book and reading like Holocaust stories that were in there.
And I'm like, um, you know, my grandma was like a big part of my life and she,
she survived Auschwitz as did her sister who was also like a big part of my life, my auntie Edith. And, um, you know, we would go to family gatherings and that's just, who was there, you know, they'll kind of like older generation and, um, Uh, my grandma never talked with us about it. So there's obviously parallels to stuttering, to like these kind of like more traumatic parts of our family story that, um, are just hard to talk about.
And like, you know, even like, while I was in Hungary shooting this movie, I was, I was looking at cab with this Holocaust tour guide. Who's like a young mom. And she was like, you know, I like talk about the Holocaust every day, but the thought of talking about it with my kids, like, I just can't do it. You know, like, I don't know how to, and I just
Uri Schneider: thought that because this is a person in Poland, who's a Holocaust or hungry, hungry, hungry as a tour guide, tour guide a historian and talks about it all day long.
But with their own children doesn't know how to broach the topic. You know what happened
Michael Turner: here? And so, yeah, I think it's just like, you know, for me making these films, it's like a practice of just like finding some area of my life. That's like sensitive or like vol durable and like trying to figure out why that is and like how to bring people in to that space.
And so, um, you know, I've always felt bad just because while my grandma was alive, I never felt like I could have, I'll ask her questions about her experiences. Like when I was like a kid, I would ask her things. Um, and she would just kind of shut down and, and the con number station, um, or say some like very short anecdote that would like leave me with the answers and the, and so it wasn't until she died that like a space opened where I felt like I could actually finally like interact with her as paradoxical as that seems.
Um, which, which was true with my grandpa and the stuttering too, you know, it's like, I felt like, um, you know, he, he had died, but I could watch home movies of him and like hear him stuttering in it and feel like he was with me on this journey. And I, I feel that with my grandma now, you know,
Uri Schneider: like
Michael Turner: the, the film monument it's about going back and kind of finding this monument that she had built in her hometown at the end of her life.
Uri Schneider: Um, after the war,
Michael Turner: after the worst, this was like in 1996. So I was still like a kid on the verge of being a teenager. And she went back and built a monument there. Um, she had, she hadn't been back to Hungary and like 50 years, she finally went back and like had this terrible experience there. And, um, so it was like, I need to, you know, like, like any evidence that like her family and her community had lived in this town was gone, you know, the synagogues have been turned to other things.
Her father's bakery was an apartment. And like, she just couldn't find any evidence that Jewish people ever lived in this place. And so she decided to do something about it. And I, I think like that, that feeling like as a parent, like, as like a new parent also really hit home with me, like, you know, I'm like, I'm not going to become president of the United States and change policy or like, but
Uri Schneider: we got someone, we got someone taking care of you, you have a different job.
What do you,
Michael Turner: you know, like we all, we all try and make good, like positive change in the world in our, like, in our own way, like with the tools we have. And I feel like my grandma did it in her own way, you know, to like try and leave a monument in there in our hometown. Just so the people there would like be warned, I guess, what happens if you like, you know, start seeing people as, as an other.
And, um, you know, with me, like, I also feel that, you know, like I like read the news and get pretty freaked out about like certain things that are happening in the world. And like, and like being concerned about my daughter growing up in that world and wanting to like in my own way, try and make like a safer or more empathetic world for her.
And so this movie is kind of like about just like what, what a monument is, you know, like looking at my grandma's monument, this, you know, this piece of stone and just being like what energy is put into this. What story was she trying to tell, um, what story was not being told here? And like, just this piece of rock, that's like always been kind of inanimate in my life to like animate it with like feelings and people and faces and like stories and like, um, making like my own monument kind of, and 3d
Uri Schneider: 3d
Michael Turner: about.
Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, obviously like monuments kind of spilled into the news last year here also. And, and I think like, um, it's just interesting that like we started having that con versation as a country, just like about how to tell our own story, you know, it's like when, like you two, nine, this big part of your past.
And like, act like it's not there. It's like your present is skewed and it's like, um, you like have to confront the trauma of the past to move forward and like have a healthy life. You know? And I, I feel like that's something that I'm still figuring out with stuttering too, is like how deeply it affected me.
And like, I feel like only by like really getting him in there and going to these kind of dark places. Um, it's how to move forward in life.
Uri Schneider: Hitting me hard, man. Um, we're like a complex quilt. It's like what we said before about, you know, right now we're being bumped into, by our pasts and, and being the doors knocking on us for our future.
Right. And we can't deny one or the other, we can't live in the past and we also can't jump into the future and deny the waves of. Of sound waves that are hitting us and soul waves that are hitting us from the past. Your story was stuttering. I'll share with you something. Um, you know, my own family, I'm like fourth generation American.
Um, so my family came to the shores of the United States. Well, before world war II or at the beginning of 20th century. But obviously if you're, uh, if you're Jewish, you know, somebody or, you know, somebody you don't know, are you there, Mike? I think we may have a bad connection, but, um, world war two wiped out 6 million, 6 million.
If it's my phone I have is my internet or yours. Can you hear me?
Michael Turner: Yeah, I think it might be mine.
Uri Schneider: So 6 million Jews were wiped out. Um, mostly exterminated in Europe. Um, and so for many people, grandparents are missing, uh, great uncles are missing. Many people came to start their lives over. When I watched your film. Mike, I think there's something fascinating, which is that your, your grandmother, you tell the story from that mistake and you see this classic Hungarian woman, grandmother in the film, on the couch there and like running the whole show.
And I can just imagine her food smelling up the whole house and everything was just so it was probably a big chandelier too. And I'm here in, um, and you said how she, you didn't talk to about the stuttering and that she lives with her husband, who was a person who stutters and, uh, and then she had this cheat sheet transmitted, or you received a message like her hope was that she could help support your speech therapy so that you would be able to be fluent, that she would be able to hear you, not stutter that she wanted to give you that in a way it's a, it's a heartbreaking when you say that it breaks my heart.
Even as I share it now, it's like, So sad to feel as a kid or as a person that your parents or grandparents greatest hope is that they could just kind of somehow fix you. But when you pull back the frame and I think this is so hard as therapists and as people who stutter and you pull back the frame and you look at this woman, she was a survivor of the darkest hell on earth.
And she rebuild her life and she lost. So how much
Michael Turner: he came from such a good place,
Uri Schneider: right. You know, came from such a loving place. And even if it was and continues to be a complex message on the receiving end, like when we can stop, I think it's like radical empathy, you know, like to really say, you know what, at the time, and even today it left a scar, but like I can actually step into our shoes and appreciate like how much she just wanted to give to her family that they should experience no pain.
They should experience no discrimination. And of course she goes back, she builds the monument, but like the greatest hope of any survivor, I think, from what I've read and from what I've learned and my wife, this is her, this is her thing. Holocaust education. She's awesome at it is like you survive that you want to create a better future and a better world.
You know, most survivors went on, they didn't step on others on their way up. They often created a lot of goodness for everybody in their radius. But what strikes me, you know, here's a Jewish guy making a movie about a survivor who goes back and creates a monument. We could call you, or this film, the new Testament, because you are a Testament to her story and to her legacy.
And I just would say that if I ever get the time or funding to do my PhD, I'm more interested. Not as much in the genetic transmission of stuttering, although there are people doing that and taking care of that. And soon in April lab, talk with Shelly, Joe Kraft, who is the foremost leader in that space.
And of course on the shoulders of Dennis trainer and NIH. But what about the transmission of, of perseverance and resilience? And I just want to say, I think your grandmother and anyone who survived Auschwitz,
Michael Turner: it's a pretty strong person
Uri Schneider: and to bounce back and to restart a family and to nurture a family, and then to have the goal to go back to the place where you were trying to be wiped off the map quite literally to go back and make sure that the memory of your community and your heritage and your generations, isn't lost forever, pretty strong gutsy woman.
And I feel like your movie is not only a monument, but a Testament of living Testament and the transmission of resilience. Specifically where you have a family history of stuttering, not only looking at the transmission of stuttering, but what about the annotation, the response to it? Is it one of secrecy and hiding, or is it one of resilience and living, and look at you with all the shame storyteller, filmmaker, exposing the uncomfortable and changing the tide of all these important stories that need to be told that maybe weren't spoken explicitly, but certainly through her life, that was her Testament.
That was her monument. That was her message. That was her heritage, you know, so I just, I'm just very moved on a personal spiritual level.
Michael Turner: Thank you. Very that's very beautifully said
Uri Schneider: any parting words before I start crying full on,
Michael Turner: uh, I just love being here and talking with you. This is awesome. Um, thanks for your like thoughtful comments and just for, I mean, just thinking about that book too, that we started with, like, I talked like a river, I just know that you're.
I just, I just, I just have a feeling that you play that role in like a lot of kids' life lives. And I think like it's just a really powerful space to be in it is.
Uri Schneider: And I tell all of us, remind all of us, our mind, myself, it's a powerful space. You have the power to make a very lasting impression that could haunt someone for their years to come, or you can make an impression to change their lives.
And I'll share this one story that I shared Monday night at a lecture. There's a young man, Jonathan Castello. He's a rockstar. He's one of Joe Biden's, uh, teenagers that Joe Biden would call and reach out and invite to the campaign trail. And Jonathan Castello for his bar mitzvah made a PSA video that went viral.
So if you go to our website, you go to the blog page, Snyder, speech.com/our blog like a viral video. Jonathan Castella made this video, what is stuttering and what's going on and what happened? What's the experience as a 13 year old kid and how could the world be a bit better at knowing how to deal and to be a bit better at creating a little bit of space and not stepping on people's words and not cutting people off and making it a little bit more challenging than it needs to be.
So I spoke so Anita, from Sweden, from the stuttering community, she picks up the film. She's like, I would love to translate this to Swedish. I said, sure, let me introduce you to his parents. And I reach out to John and his parents and they said, sure. And I said, well, what gave, what gave him the message?
What gave him the guts to do this? I said, well, he went eight years. It was when he was eight years old, five years before the bar mitzvah, he drove down to this speech therapist in Riverdale, New York. Guy's name is Dr. Phil Schneider. My father, who's still doing his thing as well and better than ever. And his eight year old kid who stutters, walks in and they drove quite a distance to come.
And, um, they said that when he was eight years old and he still remembers it to this day, he's 13, this older speech therapist with a gray beard said to him, you know,
Michael Turner: John,
Uri Schneider: I think you're a great communicator. I think you're going to say something that the world needs to hear one day and that seed planting that value sprouted, sprouted inside of him.
And if, as you said, if we can recognize the power of our words, you know, people who stutter words don't come easy for me, it's like a penny, a word, you know, it just comes person who stutters. Is it worth it? Is it, is it meaningful enough? Is it worth the effort? Is it worth the exposure? I call that like word economy.
So when people who stutter speak, their words are more precious because there's less of those words. And so each word has that much more value. And if we could recognize that and appreciate the power of our words and how they words create worlds. Oh my gosh, what a world it could be. So I appreciate, I appreciate that.
And I just want to embolden and remind myself that our role is a powerful one is a precious one as parents, as mentors, as therapists. And if you're interested in learning more about this, uh, I invite you to become a fellow on the journey and learning and growing and exchanging ideas and the transcending stuttering for speech, language pathologists, and for teens and adults.
And it's people like you, Mike, and the work that you shared with the world and the work that you will share, that is really a, um, a springboard, a catapult, uh, is everything because it opens up conversations that haven't been had. It, it lays the groundwork as one 20 year old guy finding his way with this unspoken, very important part of his life and the courage and the honesty and the strength and the value of that was like, Indescribable.
And when we share it with people, we work with, it opens up conversations in other families, it opened up conversations in classrooms. And so I encourage people to dive into that, lean into that. And for you to know that the way we talk is resonating all over the place and continues to touch people in monument.
No doubt is going to do the same. So we'll keep following to see that.
Michael Turner: Thanks. Thanks for taking the time. My pleasure. I'll talk to you again soon. Looking forward, man,
Uri Schneider: all the best everybody drop your likes, your comments, your shares. If you like this, share it because Michael Turner doesn't do this often because in rural Oregon, he's a little bit off the grid.
So you've gotta, you've got to grab it when he does this because it's precious. So thank you again.