#40 Engineering the Impossible with Lovejoy Muvhenje

“If you put yourself out there, your roots can really grow deep”

— Lovejoy Muchenje

BIO

Lovejoy Muchenje is a native of Zimbabwe. He is a person who stutters and currently lives in the Greater Richmond Area in Virginia. Lovejoy is actively involved in the stuttering community; he is currently the National Stuttering Association (NSA) co-leader for the Richmond Chapter. Lovejoy has degrees in engineering and currently works in the transportation field as an environmental engineer. Lovejoy is a husband and father. In his spare time, he enjoys reading and playing with his two sons.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

-Lovejoy discusses growing up with the difficulties of stuttering and life-changing moments that had an impact on his future. For instance, social isolation, miscommunication, and being viewed as intellectually impaired.

-Lovejoy talks about coming to America from Zimbabwe and trying to adjust to a different culture, the stereotypes put on him, and the stigma.

-Lovejoy explains the differences between stuttering in Zimbabwe and stuttering in The United States.

-Lovejoy brings up his intentions to leave this world a better place.

-Lovejoy delves into memorable moments and simple conversation with Uri Schneider that will never be forgotten.

-Lovejoy lightly covers the topic of fear and how it can hinder us from becoming our best selves.

-Lovejoy talks about different ways to help and better the stuttering community.

MORE QUOTES

“I really put my entire value on my stutter, so I used to think that my stutter really defined me or I couldn't do some things because of my stutter.” - Lovejoy Muvhenje

“Comparing things in Africa and then here in the US, the big difference with the US is that right now we have a president elect who stutters. In Africa, that’s unheard of.” - Lovejoy Muvhenje

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: Okay. Wow. Here we are. Look at, look at you, look at us. Uh, it's a pleasure. Pleasure. It's uh, the end of 2020 and this is, uh, number 40. It's interesting that the year 2020 take 20 and another 20 get 40. And so we are at number 40. And I wrote, there's a reason we saved the best for last. And my name's Ur Schneider.

I lead at Schneider Speech. I'm excited to share two things with everybody and then we'll jump in. Love joy, which is gonna be a super big treat. But, uh, I was able over the past 24 hours to take most of the conversations this past year and put them into podcast form. So wherever you consume podcasts, you can now look up transcending stuttering.

And I think of this as a journey for me. It's like research and development. It's like the best learning I could possibly do is talking to people like Lovejoy and all the people that I've had the chance to talk to. Because as my father says, and John Clawing who we spoke to earlier this year, we might be the professionals.

That doesn't mean we're the boss. and, uh, we have a lot to learn from each other. So in the work that we do, these conversations have enriched me and they've enriched our team. And I've heard from people around the world, uh, students of speech, language pathology who wanna be wholesome, helpful human helpers for people who stutter.

I've heard from people who stutter, who feel that this has become a wonderful way to listen to conversations, meet people, get. And it's truly humbling and brings me to tears. So, um, with that introduction, I just invite you, if you want to help, first of all, enjoy the conversations in the podcast. You can also see them on our website.

Uh, if they're any missing, they will be uploaded and we'll get all 40 up there. Uh, but most of them are up. So Apple, Google Podcast, Spotify, wherever you'd like to consume podcasts, if you would follow or subscribe or whatever you can do or share, it'll help the, uh, channel or the station, you know, get some more exposure and get more people to hear these conversations.

Ultimately, what we're all about is transcending stuttering. It's not just the name of a movie. It's about taking something that is so significant for so many people, is so misunderstood by so many people and, and talking about it and, and touching it and relating to it. And as we do that, number one, it stops to dominate over us.

We start to get our life back. And number two, and what's magical and hard to hear sometimes earlier, and it's almost paradoxical or nonsensical, we actually can grow through it. And so I'm not a person who stutters, but I grow through people like love, joy, and through the other people I get to work with.

And the people that I get to work with don't usually say that on day one. They don't usually say it on day two, but over time you hear people say that Stuttering was a gift, or my friend Mo MEK wrote a book, the Gift of Stuttering. Or people like Alan Reitz will say Stuttering is a gift. It took me a long time to believe it, but it taught me many things to great teacher.

It's a harsh teacher sometimes, but it can be a great teacher. So that's what transcending stuttering is all about. That's what this is all. and I just wanna thank everybody. If you weren't here listening to these conversations, it wouldn't be worth talking to a wall, but thankfully, um, each of these conversations has reached thousand, 2000, 5,000 people.

and, uh, we look to just keep spreading these conversations so more people can benefit and grow. And if you're a professional, just one pitch, or you're a person who stutters and you want more information, we have now a free email you can sign up for. It's at schneider speech.com/tsa. We'll put it in the links and comments below, and you can sign up for the free emails.

You'll also get an invitation. We have cohorts kicking off in January. And we'll run those throughout the year, but not more till the spring. So if you want to get in on the January start, 2021, fresh start in a group led by professionals with a peer of people just like you. We have a professional group that I'll be leading training speech language pathologists to do this work and transcend stuttering.

We have a group for adults and we have a group for teens. It's meant to be affordable, robust, and a real springboard accelerator for people to take some steps. Uh, again, Schneider speech.com/tsa and I'm done. Love, joy. The floor is yours. What would you like people to know about you?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Oh, wow. Um, thank you so much Uri.

I appreciate, uh, giving me the opportunity to be here. You know, as you were speaking, you know, tears were, uh, li literally coming out of my eyes. Um, I appreciate all the great work, uh, that you guys do. The great work that your team do. You know, you guys are changing li lives and stuff. Um, you know, I was, I was just, uh, Thinking, you know, how, how, how we ended up, uh, uh, co connecting again here, but the last, last time that we worked together, you know, I, I had to go through my calendars , it was like seven years ago,

So I, I couldn't, I couldn't, um, um, believe that it has been so, so, so long ago about, you know, what the, the lessons and the um, uh, things that, that we shared, you know, they, they mean so much to me that, you know, I, I still, I still, I still carry them with me to today. You know, I, I remember it like it was ye yeah.

Yesterday. Yeah. So, so, so, so just about me, you know?

Uri Schneider: It goes, it goes, it goes both ways. Thank you. And, uh, great, great, great. I love Joy reached out. Um, I wrote back and I, I said, he said, I don't know if you remember me, and love joy. That's chutzpah to say. I don't know if you remember me, because chutzpah is like, I was insulted by that comment cause how could I not remember you, , you know?

And then I shared with you several things that, that you realized, I sure did remember just as much as you did, as if it was yesterday. Those meetings with you, uh, and with so many of the people that we meet, and I, and I mean that so deeply and sincerely and love directly tell you, it's seven years on. And there were many specific points that I remember.

That, uh, they truly inspire me. They are things I have shared again with others to help them, uh, listen to true, you know, real life heroes like yourself and ways people do incredible things. I don't know if I would be able to do so. That's why I am enriched and inspired and, and share and remember and pay attention to the things that we do together.

So it, it goes both ways, buddy. That is

Lovejoy Muchenje: great. Um, yeah, I, I didn't mean to, um, insult you or anything, but, uh, you know, the, the fact that you guys meet so many people, I mean, you work with so many people and, you know, just years have gone by. So, um,

Uri Schneider: I was each person, each, each person, each, each person has a name, each person has a voice, and each person has something to do in this world, and we try to keep it that.

Great.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Great, great. Yeah. So ju just a little bit about me. So I, I'm actually originally from Zimbabwe. Um, I was born and raised there. Um, I migrated to the us Um, yeah, it's been, it's been some time , I've, I've been in the US us for like, tw 20 years now. So I, I came here. I was very young, you know, as a li little boy.

I, um, came to college and stuff and, um, you know, grow growing up, you know, St. Stuttering was, was, was like a major thing. Um, because, you know, we didn't really talk much about it. Um, so coming, coming here was, was a life cha changer. You know, I had, I had so many challenges and stuff, you know, because just the, the cultures, if you think about the cultures, uh, like an African culture and the US culture, you know, um, in, in Africa, you know, things are kinda laid back and stuff and, um, um, talking is not really emphasized on, you know, so you may one, may actually graduate, uh, the whole of high school without having.

To do things like presentation in schools, you know, where, whereas here, you know, um, like if you follow the academic route, you know, you, you are expected to present, you know, just to be out there, you know, see. So it was, it was really, um, uh, big D difference for me, you know? So as a, as a person who, who, who start as you know, I, I struggled with that.

Uri Schneider: I'm with you. What do you think was unique from someone, let's say, if you grew up or your kids are growing up in the States in Virginia, what was something unique? Because I, we haven't, I, you know, I enjoyed our conversation and I've worked with. With, uh, leading physicians at N nih and, and, and I'm just trying to break the concept of people coming from Africa and kind of stereotypes and stories that people have.

But I get to meet people like you. Uh, you taught me so much about sound engineering and, and those glass walls on the sides of the highway to protect the neighborhood. To me, you're a sophisticated guy. Um, I'm thinking of another person who's this doctor researcher at N nih. I'm thinking of another person, a woman, uh, who's a colleague of mine and, uh, some extraordinary people.

And coming from either first generation or second generation immigrants to this country dealing with stigma and dealing with judgment and prejudice and unfair shake. , but I'm interested just in hearing like the cultural side of it. So growing up in Zimbabwe and, and what you think was unique to that experience, different than maybe what your kids would grow up with here in the States with regards to stuttering.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah, so they're, there are a couple of things. You know, the, the main thing is just talking about it. Um, like I, I, I grew up, obviously I did have a status. Everybody I talked to knew that something was up, you know, because I couldn't, I couldn't, I could not talk. Um, but at the same time, um, it wasn't talked about, you know, like, how are you doing in school?

How are you handling it? Um, you know, so I kind of grew up, uh, ashamed of it. Um, and then the, the other thing too, You know, because people don't talk about it. They don't know much about it. You know, they, there's this stigma, stigma ab about it, you know, so in terms of pro professional lives and ca careers and stuff, you know, one is limited.

Um, uh, when it comes to things that I can, that they can do or the contributions that I can make to, to, so society, you know, a good example, so I, I had an uncle, um, I, I really looked up to him. He was a person who, who started it started as well, but, um, I heard stories that he wanted to be a school teacher.

And , guess what they say? That he couldn't, he couldn't be a school teacher. Why? Because of that one thing. He, he, he had a start. Um, so, so, so in a way, um, you know, people with, um, uh, I don't know if I call, if I can call stuttering a, a, a disability, you know, that that's a whole another to topic right there.

But, but people are de discriminated, you know? Um, and you, you, you, you end up being kind of like put in a corner when it comes to things that you can do, uh, grow, you know. Once you grow, grow up, um, you know, so in, in terms of thinking of a career, you know, so I, I, I am an, I am an academic person, you know, I spent, I spent a whole lot of years in school and stuff, but, uh, um, I really had a hard time figuring out what I wanted to do when I grow up.

Uh, you know, because I, um, I, I really, uh, put my entire value, or, or my start, you know, so I, I, I used to, I used to think that my stutter really defines me or like, I couldn't do some things because, because of my sta starter. So, yeah. So your, your, your question, um, is, Comparing things in Africa and then here in the us uh, you know, the, the big difference with the us you know, we, we have, right now we have, we have a president elect who, who stutter, you know, in, in Africa.

That, that's like unheard of, you know, how, how can you be a president who. Who, who sta status, you know? And that, that's just one example. You know, being here in the US I've met and interacted with many professionals, so many of them. Some are doctors, some are lawyers, you know, people, um, uh, I and their fields.

And they're re respected people, you know, and, and, um, you know, so the, the main difference, you know, between, uh, my, my growing up and, and here in the US is that, you know, um, there, there are no li limits as to what one can do. You know, you, you are not defined by your statter. Uh, and people actually talk about it, you know?

Uri Schneider: Um,

I think that's a big thing that a lot of Americans don't realize. You know, the openness. in a lot of countries and parts of the world. The idea of talking about something that's different and it just being a difference. It just is what it is. Uh, and not being a showstopper, um, in many countries and communities and cultures, that's still the case, right?

That's

Lovejoy Muchenje: right. Yeah. Unfortunately

Uri Schneider: not, not yet there, but just those two words. Not yet. And that's one of the things I remember you telling me, uh, when we met was one of your dreams, huh?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah. Yeah. It, it is, it is still a, a dream of mine. You know, I consider myself, uh, a cha changer. You know, we, we are all here to make it.

Difference. You know, we, we are, we, we are here to, to, to, to work, to work with each other and to influence each other and, and to make a d d difference. You know, I, I, um, so, so I have some goals. You know, one of my goals is to, is to live this world the better place than I fou founded. You know, I know it's a u huge goal, you know, but it's, it's one person at a time, you know, so it could be that

Uri Schneider: true.

Well, is it really such a big goal? Just turn down the volume. I'm getting the echo, but, uh, I just wanna say that you have the opportunity to love joy to make so much impact, you know? And you already have, you got, you, you got your wife, you got your kids, you got Carl Coffee, who told me that you gave him a little.

uh, boost at the earlier stage in his journey. So you're already changing the world and leaving at a better place than when you got here. So I wouldn't say that's too ambitious. I would, I would say it's important we recognize the impact each of us already have had and how, how doable it's, you know, so you do that today by paying it forward through being part of a group, the support group with the nsa, national Stuttering Association.

But I just wanna say you're, you're, you're a changer already. It's not something you're waiting to manifest, but you wanted to do something ambitious overseas. You wanted to affect change, not just in Virginia, but back in Lovely.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yes. Yes. Yeah. That, that's my goal, you know, because, um, Africa, and unfortunately, you know, some of these.

Countries and stuff, they're, they're facing like so many cha challenges and stuff. So it might just not be, um, you know, the, the, the subject of sta stuttering or disability. But, you know, things that we take for granted here in the US for example, or example like r r running water, you know, if you communicating with someone here in the US and you tell them, you know, there are places they don't have water or they don't have electricity, uh, some someone here in the US will have a hard time believing you, but it's, it's a reality.

in Africa. Some people have to walk so many distances just to find water, you know? So it's, it's just small things like that, you know. Um, yeah, it is my hope, you know, that, that one day, you know, I'll be, I will be able to u use all the experiences and the know knowledge that I have gained here in the us you know, back in, in Zimbabwe, just Africa, in Africa.

At large.

Uri Schneider: I've been working on my, I got that feedback again. Is it too loud on your side? Um, I've been working on my, my Zimbabwe accent so that I could partner with you. I could give it a whirl if you want.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Um, sure. Let me hear what you

Uri Schneider: got. . Yeah. Hold on. Eh, to the people of Zimbabwe, eh, my name U Schneider and the people of America.

We, we think about uttering in a different way and what we can do, we can help you. and you can live with more freedom. Freedom to say what you want to say. How's that?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Oh, that's pretty good, man. That, that is awesome.

Uri Schneider: You'll, you'll continue to help me polish, but uh, but we can do this. We can really, especially 2020 shows us, you know, whether it's traveling and you can't travel.

Okay. You can connect with people and, and we can, you know, do virtual support meetings and things like that. So you already have reach in Africa. Uh, I don't know if you had somewhere you wanted to go next, but I would love if you wanted to just reflect on where you were at, you know, until that point that we had that chance to connect seven years ago.

Uh, what things were like for you, what things you were holding back, what things you were wishing, hoping, dreaming of, and felt like they were out of reach. And then we could talk about some of those memorable encounters that we had and where things went from there. .

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah. So, uh, b back then when, when we met, you know, um, um, stuttering was like, um, You know, up here, you know, if, if, if I was to rank it, you know, things of importance or things that I put, uh, upfront in my life, it was like up there, you know, so I was just thinking about it.

Like, you, you called me the other day and it's like, uh, let, let's, uh, let's have, uh, I want you to be part of this fa Facebook conversation. You know? So if he was back then, you know, what would've happened? I probably would've come up with a reason. No, I can't, I can't do it. Or if I had said, yes, I can do it, um, I would've spent like, endless hours just thinking about it or just being afraid of it.

Um, instead of like looking forward to, to the conversation, you know, I will be fearing the, the conversation instead of actually preparing for what I want to talk about. Uh, fear would've just taken over, you know, so much, uh, such that once the event happens, you know, my, um, I don't know if I can use the word performance or my, my presence wouldn't, wouldn't be there, you know?

Um, yeah. So that, that's, that's where I was. Um, I was, I was very afraid. Uh, I was, I, I was, I, I let fear pretty much run me, you know, like stuttering, um, was dictating what I should and what, what I shouldn't do, you know? So where I am r right now, you know, yes, I am a person who started, but I have, I have so many hats, you know, that that's like one thing that I really took, uh, from you, you know, during the discussions that we have, you know, there is so many other things.

Um, that describe me. You know, like, like right now, I'm a husband, I'm a father. I'm employed somewhere. Uh, I, I volunteer at church, you know, I do, I do so many things, you know, so sta stuttering didn't go away. It's, it's still there, you know, but it's not, it's not like the main thing. It's not, it's not like the, the main thing in my life.

And it doesn't, it does not, um, control me. You know? It doesn't stop me from doing what I need to do.

Uri Schneider: I remember the minivan story and I told people there was, there was gonna be a good story about saving a lot of money cuz when we, when we met, you know, getting help and I wrote a little bit about this in an email I sent out, you know, there are a lot of reasons we hold back from getting help in anything, whether it's professional develop, , you know, personal, uh, mental wellness, fitness, taking care of ourselves, taking care of our marriage.

Whether it's getting a, a talk therapist or whether it's thinking about what can I do? My speech is my stuttering is holding me back. It's like you said, it's, it's making decisions for me. It's too influential in my decision making. I wanna be better than that. I can be better than that. But people hold back for a lot of reasons.

And one reason is money. So when we started, I know that was certainly one of the considerations, and it always is you. , is this gonna be worth it? You know, cause it's a, it's an investment. And I remember the minivan story was that tipping point. So could you just share what was the story of the minivan?

Like, cause why that was significant .

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah. So, um, we were just out in the market looking for, for a vehicle, you know, our family was growing, so we, we needed. , we needed a, a bigger car, you know, so, so, you know how it is with, with salesman and stuff, um, you know, you go buy a car, you're going to encounter a salesperson and they're basically going to try to sell you something.

And, uh, it's pretty much on their terms, you know, so the, the power of technology or the power of the era that we are in, you know, there's the internet and all that stuff. So you can re, re research when you wanna buy a car. You can research and find out the cost and all that stuff. So, um, the consumer or the buyer has the power.

You know, so long story short, I ended up negotiating that van to a price that I wanted. Um, so I, I, I consider myself pretty, pretty good at that actually. I, I don't, yeah, I just don't take things face value, you know, I, I stand up for myself, you know, so in terms of money, we were able to save like several thousands of do dollars on that tra transaction, you know, so maybe if I, if I had, uh, tried to buy that van, like, you knows, several years back, , when I had like, um, bad attitudes about my style, I know I would've just gone, gone along with, with whatever that that salesperson was said.

Uh, the, the other thing I just wanna add, um, you, you were mentioning about cost, you know, um, uh, for the therapy and, and, and things like that. You know what I would say, you know, people, cons, co confuse cost and value. You know, there, they're, they are two , they're totally two different things. Um, yeah. You, you may not have the money to, to pay for that, the therapy, but, you know, you know, one ought to consider the value, you know, what, what are you going to, what are you going to get after that?

E Exactly. So, um, for, for me, I, uh, I don't, yeah, so it was just money that I paid for it, but the, the value, the lessons that I learned from the interactions that we had, I mean, I could not put, I could not put it, put it put an amount to do that, you know? Uh, I, I have gotten. Several, um, do dollars back fr from that.

Were e like getting a raise from a job or getting a job offer or just being able to save money, um, after b buying a car. You know, because, because I I, I know who I am, you know, and I'm able to communicate what I need to

Uri Schneider: communicate well. Well, I, I remember, and I, I, one of us is revising history, so I hope it's not me, but the story that I have in my brain is you came onto our third or fourth meeting, quite excited about that episode over the weekend Sunday, going car shopping.

And you said to me, you know, in the past, I either would've walked out cause I couldn't pay the price that, that, you know, Carl salesman was pitching. Or in many places I would be agreeable even though I wanted to assert myself. And I knew I had done my homework and I knew the true cost. Uh, but it was through this process, right?

That you, you found the, the way to get it, speak up for yourself, to assert yourself to save that money. But it came through being ready to, to do the emotional, mental and physical work of getting the words out that you always had, but otherwise kind of sucked in and kept to yourself, to you. As I recall.

That was, as you just said, that was a moment where you immediately were convinced even if it was only for that one transaction, it paid for itself. Um, that's right. But then you, you also talked about at work, how did work change. I remember certain things that at the time, , you know? Right. Like avoiding a meeting or, or why have a face-to-face or a phone call if an email would do, can you reflect on any of that?

And cuz I think a lot of people think that they might be the only ones on the planet that are like, you know, strategizing and architecting how they duck and dodge unnecessary phone calls make themselves unavailable and correspond through text or email more than they need to. And then what evolved after that?

Any, any reflection on that?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah, so my, my, my thought about working on, I don't. I don't call it work per se, but I perceive myself being in B business, you know, I am a business per person. And, and what that means is that I'm here to serve other people, you know? So I, I cannot afford to put myself in the corner and not reach out to other PE people.

You know, the, the reason why my employer is paying me is, um, I'm adding value, you know, so I, I add value by helping others, you know, so, um, You know, the, the, the things that I have learned over the years, you know, just connecting with, uh, uh, others, you know, being able to connect and it's not, it's not necessarily about, about sta stuttering or not stuttering, you know?

Cause the thing is, you know, communication is nothing, nothing to do with stuttering. You know, that, that's, that's one, one hangup that I, that I used to have. Say

Uri Schneider: that again. That's too good to just

Lovejoy Muchenje: communication is, is nothing to do with, with stuttering, you know, you, your communicating Yeah. With someone. Um, you just want them to, to hear what you are sa saying.

You know, there, there, there's so many ways to co communicate, you know, and I, I u yeah, I, I really used to have a hang up on that. Cause I, I used to, I used to think that my, my stuttering. My, my stuttering defined, defined e everything, you know, so I, I just put myself in the corner, you know, so the, the, the work that I do, I serve the p public and stuff.

I could be at a meeting, you know, we are doing some work. We have to, uh, present the work that we're doing. And, you know, I, I, I am, I'm, I'm in the environmental field, you know, I, I have to make sure that the work that we do does not, um, harm the environment, you know? So it's just, it's, it's a matter of, uh, defending my work, describing to people, you know, what, what we plan to do.

The, the be benefits and so, so, so forth. You know? So it, it, it, um, It requires a lot of talk, talking and stuff. It requires a lot of co communicating. Um, sa same thing to, uh, I have to communicate with the people that I work with. You know, they, they need stuff with, from, from me. You know, they, they need the things that I'm doing.

Sa same thing. I may need, uh, things from them as well, you know, so I, I'm not one to hesitate to pick up the phone and, um, and, um, co communicate what I need or, um, uh, pro, pro provide what, what the other person need, need, needs.

Uri Schneider: I think I wanna just reflect on two things you said. One is back to what you said about cost and value.

And I think that that's so true. Like people think about, oh, the price tag on whatever it is, whether it's AirPods or whether it's uh, a safer car or whether it's, uh, a trainer so that you can get fit cuz you don't feel like you're in a healthy place. Um, you think about the cost, but as you said, you gotta think about the benefit.

So it's always cost benefit and then putting that together to see that the benefit outweighs the cost and then it makes sense. And the other one is risk and reward. What is the reward? What is it worth? What's the likelihood I'm gonna get it? I think that's another aspect of this is. and anything that we invest in, the question is, are we gonna use it?

I'm gonna buy that online course. I'm gonna buy that book, I'm gonna buy that add membership to the gym that, am I gonna use it? Like if I use it, it's very valuable. Sure. But then there's that risk reward. And I think that's part of, of the stuttering dilemma also. But I think that's a really good two ways to think about it.

Cost and benefit, and then risk and reward. And I heard a wonderful thing in a podcast talking about the Warren Buffets and the Bill Gates and other, you know, really next level people. They think about what's the upside, what's the downside? So the, what's the best case scenario? What's the best outcome that could happen here?

What's the worst outcome that could happen here? And then ask yourself, can I live with the worst? Can I live with that? Can I tolerate that? And I think that, that the podcast was suggesting, the third question is the question that most people don't ask. So the guy comes over, he is like, listen, , if you give me your life savings, I can get you like a 10 x return.

People are like, assign me up, I'll sign up my parents too. I'll take their entire retirement. You know? And, and then what happens? Disaster strikes. But like in a way, who was the goofball? Right? Who's responsible? Um, so if we ask ourselves, what's the upside? Well, I could get 10 x. That's pretty good. What's the downside?

You lose everything. Uh oh, okay. Well if you can live with that, like, if you have a million dollars and for you a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars is not a big deal and you can live with the downside, then that's fine. But if you can't live with the downside, then you gotta think about that. So that's right.

Just on the risk word, cost benefit. And the second thing you said, love, joy, which I think is after 40 conversations, I don't think anyone said it as well as you, that for you, it wasn't just the courage to speak up, it was the, the recognition of purpose and meaning and responsibility. and kind of like what you owe the other person sometimes.

So if it's your employer for you, you're such a person of, of ethic and, uh, doing the right thing. I, I was, my religious life was enhanced by working in, spending time with you. That's for sure. Oh, wow. Your faith is a you, your values and principles, uh, shook me up in a good way. They helped me dust off a lot of junk and really get, get grounded.

I remember that deeply and the way you talked about now, a stuttering journey. Was very much focused. Some people talk about like the self-talk and it's driven from within. I'm not gonna hold back my words, I'm gonna tell them how I feel. And that's important for a lot of people in a lot of places. But I think you're adding another aspect in addition to that, which is, you know, and we talk about that with, with teenagers and young adults.

You know, what are your rights and what are your responsibilities? So my dad talks about, so parents, want to hear, how was your day? , they want to hear what your experience was at the party and they deserve to hear it. Uh, it's kind of like a responsibility you have to your parent or to your spouse or to your colleagues.

And on the other hand, of course, you have rights. You don't have to do it in a presentation in front of 40 people if you don't feel right about that, and you can do it a different way. So the idea of not only what am I entitled to, but also what do I owe other people? What are my responsibilities? And with more rights come more responsibilities, and with more responsibilities comes more, more rights and access.

I think that's another interesting thing that you've contributed there. Thank

Lovejoy Muchenje: you.

Uri Schneider: What about the lunchbox? ?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Well, the, the lunchbox, you know, so,

Uri Schneider: um, the lunchbox was probably the magic sauce in the work that we did. .

Lovejoy Muchenje: It was the magic sauce, I guess. Yeah. So back then, you know, I, I used to take, I, I still do take lunch to work.

When we were going to the office, ,

Uri Schneider: don't forget to eat, just cause you're on Zoom, you still gotta

Lovejoy Muchenje: eat. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right. So, so, so anyway, uh, in my, um, this container that I took my lunch, um, there were several compartments and stuff. So, so there's just a compartment where I put my knots and stuff.

So I used to, the, the other thing, I, I took the bus. I, I used to take the bus to work, you know, so the commute was like 30 minutes going and 30 minutes coming back, you know. So, uh, that gave me. Extra time to do things that I needed to, to do, you know, so I used to take that opportunity to, um, if it's, if it's ri writing a goal, I would just write my goal there.

Or if it's re reviewing the goal, I would just re review the, the goals there. Um, you know, so, uh, I was using the, the lunchbox because, um, it's something that I always had with me. You know, I'm, I'm on the bus, I'm, I'm carrying it. I, I have it with me. Um, you know, so it, it, it was just a way to, um, um, uh, um, keep myself educated, I guess, you know, looking, looking at my goals and, and things like that.

Uri Schneider: I think, uh, As again, another angle or another side of this experience was the magic sauce of the lunchbox wasn't about the sauce that you packed in the lunch. You told me that you would put these notes of takeaways. It could be an insight or something inspiring, or you would find something from the Bible that resonated with what we were talking about and you'd write it and you told me you would review it.

You would kind of like a mantra or like like lessons or principles that started, and then in reviewing them on the bus, I think it's less about educating yourself and more about. , like making that impression, turning it in from like something outside of me and pressing it in. We know that in the brain, voluntary stuff, conscious stuff is on the cortex.

It's on the outside of the brain. As things become more automatic, they go deep. So learning to ride a bike or drive a car starts off being very conscientious, foolish, intentional. At some point you couldn't even remember the sequence of activities you do when you get to a stop sign and turn right. It's automatic.

And if it's automatic, it doesn't live on the outside. It's deep. So what you did was you took these ideas that we kind of, you. Breathed out of us through the conversation, but you made sure not to let it just kind of blow out. You really pushed it in and that, I think it's an important lesson for all of us if we're doing any kind of meaningful growth.

It comes through repetition, it comes through a little bit of pressure, pushing it in and through that you can change and create like new normals. You can create new habits. You can create a new response to a situation that you used to respond to a certain way that's changeable. You know, the stutter might still be there, but you no longer have to have like this flurry of of panic.

You can have a different response. That response is something that's an open variable. So whether you continue to stutter or you don't continue to stutter, you gotta deal with how do I step up to the plate? How do I deal with those thoughts that pop up? How do I deal with those feelings? The tightness, the tension, the flurry in my stomach, Hey, I've never given a presentation at work.

Now I'm ready to, but maybe they're gonna think that's weird. It's not even about stuttering, but you got a whole a ball of yarn going on and all those things take time and repetition. And I'm telling you, if I, if I think back, I think we met a whole of three to five times, but I remember

Lovejoy Muchenje: so much. It it, see, yeah, it, it, it seems like it was lo longer than that though.

Cause the, the conversations were so deep. Um, yeah, but I, I, um, I definitely agree with, with everything here cuz you know, we, we have the conscious mind and the subconscious mind. And the subconscious mind is . Oh man. It's, it is very, it, it plays tricks on us. It, you know, we, we, we can't trick it. We, we cannot trick it.

There, there are things that we can, we do without thinking about it because they have been ingrained in us. You know, so the, um, um, the, the, the real money where, where the real money is, is trying to. Put things in your subconscious mind, you know, where you get to a point where you do something without thinking about it.

Um,

Uri Schneider: yeah, that's really powerful. And I know for me, in my own growth, one of the things that I've gotten from running my rabbi is the one who told me to run. He told me, first of all, It's an excellent anti-anxiety med and anti-stress. So, you know, the endorphins and the benefits of exercise, nothing to do with being fit.

They're good for your mind, they're good for your emotions. They're good for keeping a clear, clear being. Um, so it's just interesting. I didn't start running because a running coach told me to, but a mentor rabbi figure, and number two is, he said, make it a personal growth. For me, it's a spiritual as well, but a personal growth experience, not only a physical fitness experience, insofar your body starts telling you, Ooh, I don't think you can breathe.

Ooh. I think you've done enough. Ooh, take it easy. Ooh, you're not the 5K guy. . That's not you. Who? Who do you think you are? And I think that's that voice you're talking about. And it's a moment to confront that. It's a moment to push against that. It's a moment to say, is that real? It's a moment to say, do I really not have more gas in the tank?

I think that's my voice telling me, take care of yourself. Be safe. Don't hurt. But right now I wanna push because if I push I'm gonna grow. If I strain my muscle, I'm gonna build muscle. If I don't like, I stay on the couch cuz I'm too nervous to hurt myself, I am not gonna get more fit. That's right. The voice that keeps me safe isn't gonna keep me growing.

Uh, that was resonating with me from what you were saying about the

Lovejoy Muchenje: That's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah. It's, it's about getting outside of the comfort zone. Right. If you, it's like, are you, are you going to be a house plant? You know, if you're a house plant, you know, you, you are not going anywhere.

you are just going to be a house plant in the house, you know? But if you put out, if you put yourself out there, if you're outside, you know, your roots can really go deep. The sun is shining and you, you really can grow. You know, there is nothing that is li limiting you, you know, it's really about putting yourself out there.

Um, yeah, it's, it's funny like how fear, you know, how fear kind of plays tri tricks on us. Um, um, yeah. So the. The thing about fear is, is that, you know, specifically to St Stuttering, it's like you, you're fearing you fear of something that actually has not happened. You know? So for, for example, um, if I had a speech, you know, if I had a presentation that I, that I had to do, you know, I'll be dreading about it.

Like days before I'll just be dreading about it being fearful. And it's not, it's not even there yet. Um, the, the funny thing is that once you're in the moment, once you actually doing the presentation, it's not as bad as you perceive it. It's not, it's not that bad , you know? So the, the only thing to fear is just the fear itself.

You know, it's just the fear of the idea that I'm, that I'm going to do something. But once you're in the moment doing it, you realize that no, it's not, it's not that bad.

Uri Schneider: How's your book? How's your book coming along?

Or, or, or you. Or you. Or you gotta have a parish, one of the two .

Lovejoy Muchenje: Um, I guess you are just planting a seed right there. Uh,

Uri Schneider: there you go. Well, you got me going. You got me going with the seeds and the roots, so I figured, Hey, it's time to plant a seed. This man is ready. This man is ready to grow. Um, uh, to riff off what you just said, So true, so powerful.

You know, the fear, and I think going back to your cost point, sometimes we don't factor in the cost of staying the same. So like what's the cost of carrying on this way? So on the one hand, if I go over to that person I'm interested in creating an intimate relationship with, I could humiliate myself. They might reject me, it might not be worth it.

I'm gonna have to pay to take them out for a drink and hey, I'm gonna lose the money. You know, there's a lot of costs that you start like weaving up. And the one you often don't look at is, well, hold up. I was just complaining to my buddy how lonely I am. I was just complaining about like, how am I ever gonna connect with somebody like, dude, that's the guaranteed price you pay.

That's right. If you stay the same and then all these others are risks, but on the other side of the risk could be reward. But you gotta be careful and calculate and mitigate risk for sure. But the invisible cost sometimes is listening to that voice that keeps you the same. That's right.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Hmm, that's right.

It's, it is, it's all about just putting yourself out there. You know, you can't, you can't really let, uh, fear hold you or co control you. So guess

Uri Schneider: who woke up in Kentucky? Who's that right? And Early Carl Coffee. That's right. . So, first of all, yeah, I just wanted just, I did mean to acknowledge also, I remember as a kid when I was 13 years old, going to Nashville and being there and just the, just hearing the news and watching the videos really shook me up.

Deeply so my heart goes out to the people who, you know, were affected in any way or felt the blasts impact their lives in any way, shape, or form. So just want to give a shout out there. And of course, thinking of Kentucky, I can't not think of Tennessee, so, okay. With that being said, Carl coffee had a question for you, but what did you want to say to Carl or about your, your, your crossing paths with Carl?

What was that about?

Lovejoy Muchenje: Yeah, so it's, it's one of those things, you know, just being involved, just being, you know, there. It's, it's all about co connecting and meeting people, you know. So I am actually the leader of the NSA chapter here. So I made Ca Carl Coffee. He used to reside here in Richmond, Virginia. And, uh, he hasn't been the same since he left.

Say,

Uri Schneider: say that again. It hasn't, it hasn't been the same since he left, but he left it in good hands. He,

Lovejoy Muchenje: he actually has not been the same . Yeah. So, yeah, we, we used to share a whole lot of storto stories and stuff, you know, because, uh, co connecting to people, it's, it's all about share, sharing our experiences and things like that, you know?

So, um, yes, I, I, I really, uh, miss those, uh, times that, you know, Kyle, Kyle used to be here. I know he, he, he now resides in ca Kentucky and stuff, but, uh, yeah, we, we had a good time.

Uri Schneider: Bowling Green. Their game was your loss.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Oh, there you go. Yes. I guess ,

Uri Schneider: so love, joy. He would like to know, was there a, a particular something that kind of turned you onto the idea of leadership to the idea of giving back?

in the way that you do, as you said, you know, you, you walked right into that one. You're a leader of the National Stuttering Association self-help chapter for people who stutter in Richmond, Virginia and beyond. What, what led you to do something so crazy like that? You're a busy guy. You got a wife, you got a family, you took care of yourself, you have a job.

Like, why, why is that meaningful? Why is that important, and what was the spark that kind of brought you there? Yeah, I mean,

Lovejoy Muchenje: it's, it's, uh, it's, it's pretty simple. You know, like I said, I, you know, ev everything that I do is a b business, you know, but by that, I'm, I mean, I'm here to serve other people , you know, so may it be the work that I get paid to do, or may it be like voluntary work at church, or may it be my interactions with family and friends.

You know, I, I, I really. Mean that, you know, if you, if you, if you think about it, you know, so I, I, I'm a Christian and stuff, and I, I believe in, in the Almighty God, you know, the, the, the, the, the only reason, you know why he, he has, he has us here, you know, is to, is to serve, is to serve each other. Um, you know, there, there is no point in me being here and just be selfish and being self-centered and not do what, uh, love joy wants to do.

I mean, they, there, there is no point of of that, you know. So, um, me being, um, Um, a member and a leader of, of the NSA group. I mean, it's, it's root rooted in that, you know, just being there to, to, to serve, to, to, to serve other people. You know, maybe there's a, there's a kid out there in, in middle school on high school, you know, who's stru struggling with stuttering.

Maybe there's a parent out there who doesn't know, you know, they're just going through the, those experiences. Maybe there's someone out there, you know, who's really stru struggling when it comes to, what am I gonna do when I grow, grow, grow up and stuff, you know, so I'm, I'm just here to share my, my experiences and stuff, you know, cause that's, that's what it's all about.

You know, serving, serving other people and just share, sharing our exp experiences.

Uri Schneider: and if anyone wondered the sincerity and what I was talking about, about how this man inspires me to be a better man, you got it right there, . Um, but it's also why we connect cuz I do think we, you know, we look different, we have different faith.

We live in different places. We grew up and were born in different continents, but we share that, that human passion to be, uh, to be connected with people, to be givers, and also to be great to the people that are closest to us, our family. So I, uh, resonate a lot. Like you said, I think the biggest risk of Covid, or the biggest gift is that people can become very isolated and focused on taking care of themselves and not thinking about the people outside, outside their immediate space.

So on the other hand, when everyone realizes how vulnerable they are, It might wake us up to realize, well if I'm feeling that vulnerable, someone else probably feeling a little vulnerable and maybe together we're both less vulnerable, you know? And I think I would ask you, can you say anything? I think this idea of like a scarcity mindset versus an abundance mindset.

So like when you're given time and you're helping that younger person in their journey or taking time to go lead that meeting or send that email. Frankly, I just want to go out here on the record. The reason we reconnected was cuz Lovejoy reached out and he said, you know, hey there's a guy, I don't know him, he's from somewhere and he stutters and he reached out for help.

And I was thinking maybe is there anything we could do to help him? So Lovejoy is literally like trying to help people around the world. Uh, now I don't know who that guy was. It could be he was an angel and he just was a kick in the pants for us to get back in touch cuz he ghosted us after that. But, but the important thing is that we reconnected, but I was wondering.

when that happens or when you're giving time to a person. Do you feel like you're losing, you're only giving, or is there also a side that you get back in others? Is there something that reverberates back If you could share about the other side of giving, what do you

Lovejoy Muchenje: get? Yeah, so that, that's, that's a very good question right there.

So I believe that, you know, everybody has something to teach you. You know, you, you can, you can learn a lot from interacting with other PE people, you know, Hey, because, because we, we all have ex experiences and, and, and, and stuff, you know, so me, um, taking the time to, to reach out to another per. Per person.

You know, there, there are many things that, that, that can happen there. You know, one I can learn from, from that per person. You know, they, they, they have experience that I'm, I I, I may not have, you know, so that small conversation that we may have, you know, you, you don't know where it's going to. Lead to.

And then the, the, the other thing too, that, that other person that I'm helping, you know, they, they might just be stuck in that little phase or they, they, you know, um, but, but you, you don't know what contributions they may make in the FU future. You know, we, we are, we are all connected, um, somehow, and, you know, it could be May, maybe I will not meet that person today, or maybe I may not meet them in the next 10, 10 years.

Who, who knows. But, but maybe my kids or my grandkids or whatnot, you know, they, they may somehow, you know, end up co connecting again. You know, so I, I, I, I strong, I strongly be believe, you know, we, we are, we are here, we are here to, to, to serve each other. You know, I, I, I strongly be, be, believe

Uri Schneider: in that. I'm gonna read you an email and anybody that's flashing, this is a huge treat.

What you just said. It's not your email, so don't, don't worry. But it's such, it happened today. It's December 31st. I have a lot of things that were very challenging this year. I have an immediate family member that just got off the vent and just got home. I was rocked by covid. I was rocked by changes in lifestyle.

I wouldn't want anyone to think that I've been coasting my way or you know, waltzing my way through this year. I've pushed hard and, and with faith and with grit and with struggle and with friends I've gotten through. So anything I've done is really partially cuz this community, people listening partially cuz people like you in my mind love, joy.

Um, so I just wanna say that, but what you just said, you know, we're all looking for highlights. I encourage everybody to think of what was one thing, you know, there was a part of 2000, there was two part thousand, 2020 that actually there was no covid. Like there was a January, February that was untouched.

That's right. We've got a catch and then, and then there were these things, there were these riots, if anyone remembers, in the middle of the year. . Yeah. So much happened this year. Yeah, Lord, there were a lot of challenging chapters. It was a rollercoaster, but it also means we can't lose track of little things to grateful for little things to celebrate little accomplishments that we had.

Whether it was hanging in with the kids being at home, or whether it was reaching out to family members or doing something for a neighbor or little things we did for ourselves. Like we lost going to the gym, we lost this, we lost that, but we took care of ourselves. That's right. We stayed alive, you know?

So we gotta appreciate, so this for me, just added to today, just an incredible layer, what you just said. We don't know how we're all connected. And what I opened up with about transcending stuttering, it's bigger than stuttering. And for people who stutter, who don't know what I mean by that, like cuz you're thinking I don't stutter, I'm a speech therapist.

What's it my business to talk about growing through? And I mean it at the deepest level that people who stutter have so much to teach the world, not just about. Communication, not just about the power of words, not just about learning to slow down and tune into another human being and stop the frantic pace of the world around us.

Besides all those things, the people who stutter teach the world. I am personally inspired by people like Lovejoy and people like Carl. Wow. love. So this story takes it to another level. Okay. Because, like I said, it's bigger than stuttering. Many generations ago, there was a man who influenced my family's life in a very significant way.

Couple months ago, or actually it was a couple years ago, but I just got the email today, a young woman came to me to work on something unrelated to stuttering, had to do with like reading and writing. And, uh, it, it, it turned out she was the great-great-great granddaughter. Of this man who influenced our family.

Now you would think, what a beautiful circle of life. I just felt like, oh gosh, I hope I do well. I hope I do good by her. I hope I provide service. I hope I provide value. And, uh, as with stuttering, I couldn't take away the core challenge that she had, but I did help her get a heck of a lot better. She got her master's level, uh, diploma.

She got her license. It took three times to take the test, but she nailed it with perseverance and, and working smart. And she sent me an email today and it says like this, I want to thank you for the opportunity to take the stuttering course. She doesn't stutter on Thanksgiving. When I opened it up for everybody, take it for free, even though I don't stutter, I thought it would be interesting.

So I went ahead. . I enjoyed the fact that some of the concepts that were in the course we used in our work together, it helped me gain more insight into myself. I really enjoyed it. She doesn't even stutter. Now I'm working at such and such job. I never thought I'd be in a job like this and making it, and I'm doing meaningful work and I enjoy my work and I enjoy what I do, and I enjoy the environment.

I always think about our work together and how it helped me be comfortable with my limitations. I do not have to be the perfect speller or reader, and that's okay. I have other strengths to offer.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Awesome. I I was

Uri Schneider: crying the entire way to work. I mean, like, that's what this whole podcast is about. That's what this whole journey is about and that's what it means. Transcending, stuttering, in my opinion, at like at 30,000 feet is that we can all grow and, and I don't wish adversity upon anybody. . But if we know that the world is filled with different challenges that all of us face and all of us have got something, if we can find community, if we can find people that are understanding, then they get it and respect us and see the bigger dreams inside of us that are waiting to come out and the ability inside of us that we don't even see in ourselves.

If we can tap into those people, it could be in a self-help community, in an online community, it could be with a coach, a therapist, whatever. We can all grow because it's part of being human is like this bigger thing inside of us than what everyone sees on the outside, and it's very hard to grow on our own.

We got the world of things coming at us. So for me, that's what transcending stuttering's about. Love, joy. That's what you mean to me as a role model. As an inspiration. I'll let you take us home for 2020. Any final, final thoughts that you'd like to share in terms of your thoughts on the past, thoughts on the future?

Hopes? . Oh, I, I

Lovejoy Muchenje: just, I just want to thank you Ri, for giving me the opportunity to be here. And also I just want to thank you and your team, uh, for the great work that you do. You know, I, I just particularly love, you know, the time that we are in, you know, the time of tech technology and stuff. Um, so lo location or geography doesn't li limit us any anymore, you know, so the, the, the work that you're doing is reaching out, you know, it is far reaching out.

You know, a kid from Ca Canada, a kid from Zimbabwe, you know, where, wherever they are, you know, they're, they're able to, to find, um, That information. So that, that's that. That's great. You know, so, so looking ahead for me, you know, it's just, it's, it's all about being co co, co connected, you know, co connected, connecting with others and just being there, se serving others.

You know, I am, I am here to serve.

Uri Schneider: So I just wanna thank everybody and thank you. Love, joy. Um, we can't do it alone and we don't need to talk to an echo chamber. People who stutter know that if you're alone in your room talking to the wall, usually you don't stutter. Usually that's cuz it's not communication and usually stuttering only comes up when you're having real sharing, real spontaneous communication.

That's where stuttering tends to show up. It, it often doesn't show up as much when you're singing, when you're saying something with a foreign accent. When you are acting or when you are not talking to a human being, you're talking to animals, you're talking to yourself, and people get frustrated like, why is that?

Why am I stuttering there? But not, it's because stuttering, like Lovejoy said, the para paradox, and we'll finish on this, the paradox paradoxes. Stuttering doesn't equal communication, and communication doesn't equal stuttering, but communication is where stuttering happens. It's when you wanna connect with someone with truth, with openness, with real transmission of giving and receiving another human being.

That is where stuttering can show up. But if it does happen, as luxury said, successful communication, great communication is not built upon perfect fluency. There are a lot of fluent people out there look in your life who are not great communicators, and then you can look at people like Lovejoy and so many of the 40 people I spoke to this year, And you could think of Braden Harrington, you could think of Sam in England who I just sent a happy birthday message to.

And you could think of the president of the United States. You could think of a lot of people who are successful and they stutter. And in some ways it might be not only that, even though they stutter could be that stuttering gave them a certain superpower, it gave them a certain maturity and strength and fortitude and conviction.

So I leave us off this here for episode 40 of season one, it couldn't be sweeter to share it with someone other than you because you're the guy who believed in technology and meeting me on, I think it was Skype back then, seven years ago. So love, joy, you actually got this whole thing started. Anything I've done online, it all is, uh, something you've had a hand in.

And I, I mean that and. . I know we're gonna stay online and talk some more, but I just wanna thank everybody for tuning in. Please share, please comment if there was something inspiring, drop it in the comments and we'll repost it and share it cuz Lovejoy just shared so much. I think I shared a few interesting things, but I really thank Lovejoy for the time.

Check it out on the podcast Transcending Stuttering. It's now on podcasts everywhere. It'll take just a few days to get everything up, but you can digest and, uh, take that in in podcast form while you're on your peloton or biking or taking care of, uh, mundane topics and tasks. And if you wanna check out the cohorts or if you wanna sign up for the free emails, if you're a person who stutters or a speech language pathologist schneider speech.com/tsa, we'd love to hear from you.

We wish everybody healthy, strong, uh, promising year ahead and look back on this past year and think what you can take away from all the challenging times. We definitely revealed a lot of strengths and I bless you all to take those strengths with you into the future.

Lovejoy Muchenje: Thank you.