BIO

Kristin Chmela, M.A. CCC-SLP BCS-F spends the majority of her time working with individuals of all ages with fluency disorders at the Chmela Fluency Center in the suburban Chicago area.  She has lectured on the topic of childhood stuttering around the world.  She is co-founder and co-director of Camp Shout Out, a therapeutic program for school-age children who stutter and a hands-on training opportunity for professionals and graduate students.   Kristin was former Chair of the American Board of Fluency and Fluency Disorders, has supervised graduate students from across the globe, and provides professional apprenticeships at her center.  Kristin collaborated extensively with the Stuttering Foundation on training videos, conferences, and publications, and is lead author of  Basic Principle Problem Solving:  Working with School-Age Children Who Stutter.  Kristin is also a certified yoga instructor and mindfulness teacher, and believes all can choose to continue evolving as communicators.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

RESOURCE LIST

• Chmelafluencycenter.com
  

• Chmela Fluency Center -1161 McHenry Road Suite 201 Buffalo Grove, Illinois 60089

MORE QUOTES

“There's the choice just to start paying attention to where you are and what's happening and who's around you to support you. And then there's the next choice, which is to move forward.” -Kristin Chmela

“ I feel great concern when I read different things on social media that downplay the importance of early stuttering treatment. And again, I don't think any child ever has to be fixed. I think in the early developmental period of the brain of a child, we have a great chance of helping development ease when it comes to communication.” - Kristin Chmela

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: well good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are. Welcome to this wonderful conversation. It's a privilege to be here. My name's or Schneider, I lead at Schneider's speech and it's a big, big privilege to host, uh, Kristen Kamela from Camala Fluency. I'll do an intro, but the most important thing is she taught me a vocabulary word that I love to use all the time.

It's called heuristics. Mm-hmm. . It's the study of problem solving. And, uh, there was an epic pre-conference at ASHA in Miami almost 20 years ago, and uh, nothing's been the same for me ever since that presentation. Uh, there was another presenter there, also very influential, but Kristen's talk on heuristics is really, if anyone knows me, , you know, the workshops I give and talking about problem solving as professionals and the work we do with individuals figuring out how to problem solve.

Even my kids make fun of me. They know that the, the skill that I believe is the most important skill isn't arithmetic or spelling, but problem solving. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, if we can figure out how to acknowledge what is and find our way through it and use different approaches that work for different people, different times of life, uh, some of us are inclined to solve problems one way, others the other way, but that work and that presentation was a PowerPoint that's forever, you know, kind of imprinted into my being so big.

Thank you to Kristen for that. And I'll do the, the formal intro, so to speak, just to let you know who you're in the presence of. In case you don't know, um, Kristen Camilla is, uh, spends most of her time working with people of all ages, people who stutter at the CELA Fluency Center in suburban Chicago in Illinois.

She's lectured on the topic of children's stuttering around the world. She's the co-founder, co-director of Camp Shoutout, a therapeutic program for school age kids who stutter and a hands-on training opportunity for professionals and graduate students. She's the former chair of the American Board of Fluency and Fluency Disorders.

Uh, she supervises graduate students from around the globe. She provides professional apprenticeship at her center. Collaborated extensively with the Incredible Stuttering Foundation and Jane Frazier on training videos and conferences and publications. And she's the lead author of basic principal problem solving, working with school-aged children who stutter to round it out.

She's also certified yoga instructor, a teacher of mindfulness. And this is the kicker. This is the line that she really stands on. She believes that all can choose to continue evolving as communicators. Mm-hmm. . Kristen, welcome. What do you want? What would you want people to know about you? What are you most proud of?

Kristin Chmela: Thank you for having me. It's so wonderful to be with you and to talk with you this morning. Um, what am I most proud of? I think I'm most proud of my wonderful children. I have two grown daughters and my grandson. . I think that's what I'm most proud of.

Uri Schneider: How old is your grandson?

Kristin Chmela: He is about 17 months.

Mm-hmm. .

Uri Schneider: Wow. So what's the experience of Grandmothering compared to being a mom? And the piece that I didn't include is that you, you also know stuttering from the inside. And I, we've touched on that and some of the other conversations. People who stutter, whether they became speech therapists or went on in other paths.

Uh, being a parent and bring a child into the world and raising a child is always a very intense experience. And then there are those that have the privilege to know what it is to be a grandparent. Mm-hmm. , what can you share about the difference of your journey in parenting and grandparenting?

Kristin Chmela: Well, I think when you're the grandparent, you can observe.

and then you can go home and get a good night's sleep. Right, ? That's right. Um, hand off. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I, you know, both have great joys, but there's nothing quite like being a grandparent. Mm-hmm. .

Uri Schneider: Mm-hmm. . Awesome. So you gave me a couple things that were valuable points that we'll hopefully get to. One of the things that I wanted to, to have some insight, and I have a little bit, but I would love to hear more, you know, here you are today and it's so easy to see the final product of years of, of the journey of living.

Mm-hmm. , um, what was Kristen like growing up? You know, maybe just touchpoints in those early years. Mm-hmm. school, age years, high school, and then of course, I think at age 19 you had some really pivotal encounters. Maybe just bring us through a little bit of that.

Kristen,

Kristin Chmela: growing up was very different on the outside than on the inside, so I could say that I appeared to be very social and have lots of friends. I was very creative. Um, I was a dancer and enjoyed that tremendously. But on the inside, I think I was, I suffered from depression often. I, I was bullied quite a bit when I was in grammar school, and it certainly had a lasting impact on me.

I wanted always to be a part of the group, but never quite knew exactly how. So there was a lot of, I think, deep loneliness, and I was quiet if I, I learned pretty early on that for whatever messages I was getting, and at the time I think this was so normal that you're really not supposed to talk like that if you stutter.

That's not, not the way we do it. And I became, I was so sensitive as a child, um, that I, I really stopped talking. Only I talked only if I thought I could get the words out. Um, and I had severe anxiety as a child growing up, you know, anxiety around perhaps communication. And I was afraid of dogs. I was afraid of heights.

So it really went beyond just the scope of the, the stuttering experience. Right. Um, So the other thing I was going to tell you when you asked the question, what are you most proud of? The other thing that I'm most proud of is how far I have come as a human being.

Uri Schneider: Tell us more about that.

Kristin Chmela: I'll share an experience that I had at a camp. Shout out a couple of years ago, I promised some campers. I would go down the zip line and being afraid of heights. This was something that was, could be, have, you know, feel very traumatic for me. Um, I, I had an experience when I was a child and I, I slipped. I didn't fall far, but I just slipped on an escalator coming back from Polly's Island, holding some shells in a suitcase.

I was, ma I don't know, maybe 10 or 11. and that made such an imprint on my brain. I have one of these sensitive brains that holds on to those experiences so intently. And after that, I remember going to the shopping mall with my mother and I would make her walk with me all the way to the other end to take the stairs because that feeling of getting on that escalator was so terrifying.

And yet at the same time, I kept pushing myself and I was in ski school, so we were at camp, shout out, and I made this promise, and one of the campers said, miss Kristen, that took you seven years. So it was one of those times where I thought, I have to go up. I, I really, I knew I had to go up. I really wanted to leave the camp and go pretend like I had something to do, which I could have done.

Uri Schneider: How, how old were you at that point?

Kristin Chmela: At this point, oh, well, let's say that, um, maybe, well, yeah,

Uri Schneider: you weren't 15 anymore. No,

Kristin Chmela: I wasn't 15. And um,

Uri Schneider: so the procrastination station and the, the ability to duck and dodge and those stories and those strategies and coping mechanisms were alive and well, even as you're an adult facilitating a camp to help young people kind of, of course.

And that's part come out. I think that's so

Kristin Chmela: profound. That's part of what we do at camp, is we talk about how we're still evolving. So I'll go back to the story. So I got the helmet on and I went up and I, as I climbed about 60 feet of the spiral staircase, I was just sobbing. And I got to the top and the counselor at the top said, are you sure you wanna do this?

It's okay if you go down. Oh, oh no. I mean, it's okay if you go down the stairs. I said, I'm not going down those stairs. There's no way I'm not gonna do this. It took about 10 minutes. It took about 10 minutes in there were were all the campers below and they saw me and how upset I was and I jumped. And the reason this relates to how things have evolved, I guess is the next year I went back to camp and I had been intensively in my yoga mindfulness training, which was about 200 hours.

And I put that helmet on and I walked up those stairs and I went like this and I just walked off.

And that was probably the, the peak of Wow. We really can change our brain. We really can go to our breath and really know who we are. And I just jumped and the camper said, was it more fun this time? And I said, no, . And I don't know if I'll do it again. Um, but that was a big moment.

Uri Schneider: That was a big, so powerful.

We were sitting this past Friday night at our family dinner table, and it was the beginning of the Jewish New Year. So we were reflecting on some plenty of stress over the past year, that's for sure. But we were trying to remember the highlights both within, within these stressful months, and also the fact that there were parts of this, at least from the Jewish New Year, but even since January of 2020, there were.

Times where we weren't living with this or even remembering previous years. So we went through and we replayed the year. And one of those replays, which the kids couldn't believe was this year was a zip line. And I have twin girls, they're nine years old. They really wanted to go, there's no way my wife or I would go in there and my older son gets on and they, they tie the three of them together.

So it's a three person Zipline safe, they're strapped on, we triple check that everything's clamped. They're wearing all the, all the get up and, uh, very long Zipline and very big valley in the middle. Mm-hmm. . And as they go across, we see that they're kind of slowing down before they get to the other end and they slow down and they just didn't make it to the other end

And so they start drifting back to the middle where they sat hanging over this valley Now. . What was striking was that my other son, who's a little bit of a photographer, videographer, he's getting this all on tape. And when we watch the tape later, my wife and I are uh, losing it in different ways. We're both responding to this with great concern, but expressing it so differently.

But when you watch the tape of the video, the three of them are laughing. It was the highlight for them. They had seen some other people get stuck apparently and thought it would be so cool because it's an expensive ride, why not drag it out? So by getting stuck, they actually got a lot more bang for the buck.

So just, I think what that speaks to me is the, the different ways different people experience things and parents and children going through experiences and certainly we working with people who. caring for young people who stutter, let's say, or going through any kind of challenge. You know, all the feelings are legitimate, but the, the important thing is to really check in and see what each person's going through.

Mm-hmm. , um mm-hmm. . And then the other piece that just comes out that wanna highlight from your story is ongoing evolution. And I think you, you know, in our preparing, you highlighted that so many times, but whether it's as a communicator mm-hmm. , whether it's, uh, stretching boundaries in other places becoming bigger and going further, the mind over body, realizing were bigger than, you know, just the habits and loops that we went through yesterday.

And it takes time. You know, it took you a couple years even though you had that commitment. So everybody in the right time and everybody in the right way, and the other big line of yours, there's no one way. Mm-hmm. , uh, there's no one way and there's no right time. It's about, you know, moving through that.

So what would you say about that in terms of insights that you would wish to share with people going through it or professionals about there's no one way, but how do you find your way or how do you find the right way for that person? What would you

Kristin Chmela: offer? I think what I would say is like as I look back on my own story and think about different experiences I had that, first of all, there's so much choice involved.

So there's the choice just to start paying attention to where you are and what's happening and who's around you to support you. And then there's the next choice, which is to move forward. And I always like to say, to be present to where you are now and do the next thing. do the next thing. And I remember being a freshman in college, go in an English class and it reminded me of the bigness of this going down the zip line.

And of course, going down the zip line was for, was a different thing. And that was what was important, was for me to be vulnerable in front of these campers and say, we all have fears and we all work to know ourselves better and to overcome and to move on. And I, I had to give a, we had to say our name in the class and I just got up and left and I drove all the way home.

It was a community college class and I left my purse there and I had to drive all the way back. It was about an hour away. And explained to the teacher why I left, because I stuttered and I couldn't say my name. And then we had to give a speech in the class for the whole grade. And at some point I sat there during the whole class and never contributed.

Never raised my hand. She told me I could write a paper instead of doing the speech. And I had just started therapy with the Gregorys. And at some point I made the choice that the only way was forward. And my mother said I was always a survivor. Even as a child, I would just kept, keep going. So maybe that was, persistence is part of my temperament, but I made that choice and I, I'm very interested in neuroscience and what they're teaching us now about the brain and about our ability to keep evolving.

And I love when they talk about how it takes the brain 30 seconds longer to come up with what is going. because we are wired to attach to what is not going well for survival. Right? That's that primitive reptilian brain. And when I made the choice in my life to start looking at what is going well and what can I do next, and how can I challenge myself, um, that's, that's how I stayed on the road, I guess so to speak.

I'm still on the road of the journey, but that's certainly how I got on. And your father was a pivotal person for me in my, my own journey. Um, we would talk, we would, I would see him at Ashe and we would have talks. We never talked really about frivolous things. We talked to

Uri Schneider: No, my dad, my dad doesn't do the frivolous thing.

Talk.

Kristin Chmela: No, I don't much do it either. We talked about the real things essence. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And he's been a. a mentor and a guide in so many ways. Mm-hmm. .

Uri Schneider: Well we might have a surprise visit. We'll see about that. Uh, he was very excited to tune into this and maybe join us. Um, I think that that right there is a really interesting thing because the video clip that I shared, which you were so taken by and my dad didn't know, I still had that.

It was from 2008 something we prepared for Asha with you and with David Shapiro. Both at that point, very accomplished. And of course when I asked you of the most proud of thing or accomplishment, you didn't list all the credentials after your name or the long paragraph. I can list of all those things and all those doings, it's the, being a grandparent is the most satisfying.

But it's interesting or, and it's interesting to think about. And if you could share, cuz this was something people asked me to ask you about. You know, there you are speaking at the conferences. , you're a leader in the profession. Mm-hmm. . And then you're having these conversations with my dad, some of them on videotape.

Those are the only ones that I know, cuz they were kind of documented. Talking about still, as you said, being on the road of grappling with the stutter, even as you are accomplished and respected and decorated and brought on to the stage to really be a leader and influencer, the dichotomy of the outside, the inside of being that far along, uh, of what might, might be thought of as acceptance, being cured.

I think if you could shed some light on the nuance of adults who get past stuttering, you know, whether it's with Joe Biden, whether it's with others mm-hmm. , all these people that show up on the poster of the Stuttering Foundation versus those that stutter openly. There's, there's a lot of interest now about this in terms of what does that mean?

how? How would you unpack that and share with that, what it means to get over it, to get past it, to be cured, even when it's still present?

Kristin Chmela: What can you share on that? This is a really important topic because I do feel that so many speech pathologists will hear something and then try to apply it without the depth of knowledge that is needed to move, let's say a child, a family, and adult along in this process.

Right? And I think at different times in life, we perceive things in the present, and then as we continue on the journey, we alter those perceptions. I remember being a very young clinician. Saying out loud, I was probably in my early twenties saying, I've gone through the process of this problem. I've accepted this, I've accepted the stuttering, and I've gotten through it.

And then I had children. And all of the sudden I was in situations where there were people I didn't know and I had to introduce myself. And I clearly remember dropping my daughter off at preschool and meeting a mother and having a big block on my name and getting in the car and thinking she may not want her daughter to play with my daughter because she may think there's something really wrong with me.

And when I said that out loud, I went, wow. What am I not seeing here? And I was still working on my speech. I wanted to be able to speak. I wanted to be able to speak, and the Gregory's told me I couldn't want that. They never told me I couldn't want that, so I wanted that. Did I put the work in? You bet. I would go into the bathroom, I would rehearse, I would write things out, I would practice phrasing.

That was a different way of communicating. I feel like now I just talk. Right? But at that point, when I realized, when I said that out loud, and then I realized I was to give a maid of honor speech at a friend's wedding, and I felt, and I would embarrass her if I got up and stuttered. When I said that out loud, I realized.

I had not gone dealt with those deep feelings of shame and embarrassment and humiliation and trauma, and I had a relapse with my stuttering. It was such a blessing and I started to really do the hard work, and that's hard work. And if you're willing to get in the tunnel and stay and work it through, and I had a therapist help me, not a speech therapist, this was other counseling, C B T and different other counseling.

If you're willing to stay in the tunnel, there is only one way out and it's the other side, but it's a very uncomfortable placed to be because it's very emotional and I just kept doing the next thing.

Uri Schneider: Mm. I think the other important caveat there, for anyone listening, that's such vulnerability and honesty, but you're the only person that can put yourself in that tunnel and no one else has the right to put you in that place.

I think sometimes parents or others, people that love you with the best intentions would want to push someone forward. And similarly on the platform to go over the edge, to do the jump. Nobody should be pushed, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta jump yourself. But when the person makes that choice, whatever stage they're up to, whatever age they are.

So what would you say, would you say that you still stutter, you identify as being a person who stutters today? You know,

Kristin Chmela: I could stutter. I could definitely stutter at a given moment. And if I do I say, oh, did you, that was real. Did you see I just stuttered. Do I think about my speech? Not particularly. Um, do I identify in the mind of a person who stutters.

Probably not.

Uri Schneider: You know, Michael Lek? Oh yeah, go ahead.

Kristin Chmela: Yeah. Um, and sometimes I feel a little caught because that was, that was my whole existence. And then of course, as talking gets easier, there are many in the stuttering community that want you to stutter. Right. If you're going to, let's say, give a presentation.

Right. I remember a very, very special person that gave a, a keynote talk at a conference. Mm-hmm. . And he came to me and he said, they want me to stutter. They want me to make sure that I stutter. And I looked at this individual and I said, may I give you a piece of advice? Why don't you just talk? Yeah. And whatever that me, however that is, just talk, yeah.

Mm-hmm. , so I, I could still stutter. Definitely. Yeah. I'm lying that way. Mm-hmm. .

Uri Schneider: Mm-hmm. . Michael Lek has this beautiful idea, I would shared it with many people that we meet. You know, he says, it used to be that stuttering was the primary theme. It was in the foreground of every decision to choose to do, not to do, to say that word.

To not say that word. The mm-hmm. , the, the, the overtone of every experience was colored and shaded by this primary identity and feeling and fear and concern. Mm-hmm. about the physical getting stuck, and also the, the stories, the feelings, the thoughts running through the head. He said, now it's just one of a thousand things that make me who I am.

Mm-hmm. . And so he would never say, he doesn't stutter. , but it's just that it's not the primary theme. It's no longer in such a prominent position. I think that's, I find that that's a nice subtlety to it. I feel

Kristin Chmela: like that's a really good way to say that.

Uri Schneider: Mm-hmm. , it's like a diamond. A diamond comes out of the mine, very rough and dirty.

It needs to be, the schmitz has to come off. Mm-hmm. . And then you need a diamond cutter. And when you look at, you know, a diamond, if anyone's looking to get engaged, any guys out there, you learn about the three Cs. Mm-hmm. , you know, the color, the clarity, and the cut. The diamond cutter doesn't make it a better stone.

He just knows how to add more facets. Mm-hmm. . And when you add dimensions and facets, so then no one side is more prominent than the other. So I think the idea of taking a die, you know, you look at a die, is it a one or is it a six? Mm-hmm. , turn it around. It's both. And so the stutter doesn't have to be the only identity, and it also doesn't have to disappear.

but you can choose to put other things, you know, more front and center. But certainly the issue of identity and a sensitivity around it is one that's an important conversation that's happening on so many levels. Mm-hmm. today. So touch

Kristin Chmela: on that. I remember even having a client, I can see it like, I can remember everything about it as I'm in my basement in my office when I was, my kids were growing up, I worked out of the house and he was 13 and he looked straight at me and he said, Ms.

Kristen, did you just avoid a word ? And I said, yes. And I really had to realize that I was still afraid. I had not worked through those emotions. We joined a new church and when I had to get, explain the directions from our house to get to the church as a way to get to know people, I got up and left and went into the bathroom and I thought, I feel like I'm 10.

And I was upset and I went back to that group. You weren't 10 anymore. No. And I went back to that group and said, this is what's happening and I'm okay. And I stutter sometimes. And I had a lot of those experiences. My first Asher presentation, I decided I'm not gonna try to work on my fluency, I'm just going to talk.

And I stuttered my way through the whole thing. And I sat down and I said, okay, I'm alive. You know, I'm still here. I think I made a contribution. Is it possible that you can really accept that this can happen and you can still work on it at the same time? That's what Hugo Gregory was all about. Two, there are two sides to every coin.

There's lots of ways to modify and there's ways of dealing with these attitudes and feelings. And when I say I'm still evolving, I, you know, I may, I may have become a really easy, relaxed communicator. , but I'm still evolving and working on things like holding back, not interrupting. I'm not a very good listener all the time.

I may be in a work setting, but in my, my life, it's very hard for me. I get so excited and I think part of it is that I spend so long not sharing that I, I just wanna share and talk and I'm still working on that. I think I'll always be working on that. Mm-hmm. ,

Uri Schneider: that's a great, a great segue to some things I would love for you to share a little bit more about is, uh, the interplay between change and behavior and attitudes and beliefs, uh, as well as camp shoutout and the important work and, and the importance now and how camp shoutout is evolving into the times that we're living through.

Um, what could you share on, on that? Because I think what you're, what you're talking about is even in this question about do you still stutter? Do I occasionally get stuck? I heard you say, yeah, that could happen. Mm-hmm. , uh, is it still my primary identity? And do I identify with the identity of Kristen?

The person who stutters you said probably not as much, but it's still there and, and there's a certain contradiction there that that is Okay. Um, but I think what you've talked about, and even in your career, adding mindfulness and therapy outside the scope of speech therapy really speaks to, again, multiple facets.

Can you share a little bit more about your beliefs and attitudes on that?

Kristin Chmela: Well speak to the first point, which was something that Dr. Gregory always talked about in that we work on modifying behaviors, and I'm not talking about. Fluency. I'm talking about even things like holding on to someone's face when you're stuttering or using a stronger handshake.

When we, we get back to handshakes or um, talking in complete sentences, there's so many ways we can modify behavior. And as we do that, our emotions begin to change. We may have some positive feelings about what we're capable of, and our perceptions may change. And as our perceptions change about ourself, our beliefs, our behavior changes.

So all of these things are intertwined, which I think is very important for parents to remember and for speech pathologists to remember. It's not just one thing. , it's multiple things that we're doing that all interact with each other. And at the end of the day, can the person feel like they've been seen?

Can the person feel like that person that's helping me or that parent, they get it and it's not always pleasant. So can we hold space for the child then, or for the adult? Just hold space for them because that's part of being present, is acknowledging the unpleasant and the pleasant and the neutral instead of trying to make it somehow better.

Uri Schneider: Um, nugget of wisdom on that for parents, how to do that. I mean, it's so, it's so much easier said than done. And as a father myself, I grapple with that and I go through it with people all the time. The principle of being present and hanging in there, even in the difficult moments is one that we can all agree on up here.

Yes. And then there's a part of us that struggles in that moment. So as a parent, as a mother or a father is feeling their the knife in the heart as the child is grappling to get their words out and really maybe going through a really intense block, what would be one nugget you could share with that parent to be present?

Kristin Chmela: Think The nugget I would share is that nobody's taught how to do this. These are skills you can learn. For myself, reading favor in Mali's book, how to talk. So kids will listen and listen. So kids will talk. I'm

Uri Schneider: surprised they have any left in stock for the number that I've bought and given out.

Kristin Chmela: Yes.

Instrumental in learning. These are skills. And then I wrote them down and then I started practicing them and then they became part of my clinical work. These are all skills and none of us are perfect as parents. We keep evolving these skills, but to commit as a parent to learning how to be big enough for my child to allow that suffering, because if we allow it, we also model that we're gonna come through it.

And this is a big part of mindfulness. Yeah. We learn to watch our thoughts come and go, and our emotions come and go. None of them last forever. I spent the first, probably four months when I began doing restorative yoga, which in part is very meditative, crying on the mat. And my teacher, my guru, never asked me once to explain it, never.

We talk a lot in yoga about don't get caught in the chit riti. Don't get caught in the story of it all. The story, I guess you'd say minutia, right? All that stuff. What? What was that word? Was it a real word? You say Minutia. No minutia. Is that a word my client said, don't get caught

Uri Schneider: in. Yeah. Minutia is a great, minutia is a great word.

You taught me heuristics, so I'll validate anusha.

Kristin Chmela: Yeah. Okay. And that she, she just was there and she said it was okay. And that was a big part for me of also recovering from those emotions. Yeah. The one thing that concerns me is the interpretation of the neurodiversity movement. And I'm not going to say that I'm even that knowledgeable about what that means, but this idea that, do we have to fix our children?

should we do all these things or should we just let them be who they are? And I don't really know how that ever got into the conversation, what we, meaning, what realize is. Well, what I mean is that there's so many ways we can help children. We know that the brains of children who stutter are different than the brains of adults.

And this brings me to camp shout out and the idea that if we can cultivate places where children can have positive experiences communicating, that doesn't mean they may not be stuttering, but they're up there, they're up in front of 100 people and they're sharing, or maybe they are working on something and that's going into their brain.

I think in the end, this is going to make a difference.

Uri Schneider: What does that mean? I, I wanna highlight or hit that, hit on the head your point. What is it that bothers you or that you feel is a don't important we don't to emphasize about, cause the, the conversation about neurodiversity, just to lay it out there, is there's a thought that if this is the way the child is, it would be a mistake to try to shift or change or influence them to go any other way.

That the way they are should be embraced fully as is without mu, without mucking

Kristin Chmela: with it. Right. And I, we, I've always believed that about children who stutter. They are okay because that's how they were born. People who stutter are always okay. And the idea that I don't wanna have to fix, there's nothing to fix.

Mm-hmm. , we come and get. To evolve, to create a mindset that will help us throughout our life be able to feel that sense of peace about who we are and to be able to be in the world and navigate it in an easier way. And I think with children,

Uri Schneider: yeah. Talk about young children and how would Kristen answer the question that we both get all the time from parents?

You know, I, I wanna, I wanna make sure that I do everything I can to help my child and spare them unpleasant experiences of bullying and teasing and low self image. And at the same time, uh, I don't want to do something that's gonna intervene and mess with their, their path and their way and just accepting and loving them just for who they are.

but I also wanna help them. I think that's the tension. And how would you, you know, frame that? And I think it speaks to the work with young kids. Yeah. So

Kristin Chmela: I think one of the things that I would say, and I'm talking about children now that have persisted in stuttering. Okay. So the early treatment, it's like, what age are you?

I'm talking about children that may be nine, eight, or nine or 10, and have been stuttered for stuttering for several years. Again, there we can't put it all in a bucket, right? Every client is so different. But I would talk with the parent about how we, it's so normal to feel that we wanna spare our child unpleasantness.

And we also know that suffering is a part of the human condition and there are ways that we can approach that. And I would want to know if the parent wants to help their child, if things were go, were easier for the child, what would it look like? Well, I want my child to be able to tell us what happened at school during dinner, and be able to get those words out easier instead of getting frustrated and leaving the table and saying, nevermind.

And what I would say is, okay, well let's

Uri Schneider: work with that. You see who's in the waiting room, we have a surprise guest. Here he comes. Dr. Phil, my father

Kristin Chmela: makes so happy. Here we go. Ah,

happened at school, during dinner, and be, we gotta

Uri Schneider: turn

Kristin Chmela: off the Facebook. That's how, instead of getting frustrated and leaving the table and saying, mind,

Uri Schneider: I just muted you, Abba, until you turn off the Facebook video.

Just gimme the thumbs up when you're ready. Yeah. Kristen, if you wanna finish that or maybe we'll just wait. This is a moment. Sure. Great. No, I know my father was tuned in and watching it live. And, uh, okay. Abba, welcome. I don't wanna

Phil Schneider: speak, I just want to keep listening. This was a full meal. I feel you're such a gift and I, I, I, I needed, I didn't even know I personally needed to hear you right now.

I was actually thinking of who to call for help with some struggles emotionally. And I feel that, uh, being in your presence was so therapeutic, so healing for me. And I, I, I, I hope I can hold onto every single word and every single thought. And I don't just hear your words, but you're way of expressing yourself is so profound, just reaches so deeply.

Thank you so much. I'm glad to see you. And

Kristin Chmela: I'm Mustang, I'm so happy to see you too. . I mean so much.

Phil Schneider: It's totally mutual. It goes both ways. Mm-hmm. , but I don't wanna interrupt on it, I'm just drinking it in.

Uri Schneider: No, perfect timing. We were just talking about reflected, I think you heard earlier some of the conversations in your relationship kind of over the years, you guys, and, uh, we we're just talking about young children or I think we, when we, it's important for all of us and relates to what Kristen was saying, we have to be very thoughtful about how we talk about certain words.

Like when I say young children and you say young children and you say young children, we have very different ideas of what that means. So, uh, all the more so the more, you know, the more abstract it gets. But Kristen was talking about the children in that 8, 9, 10, 11 years old and just, I know. And what about the younger ones too?

I mean, maybe Kristen you could relate to that and maybe Avi you could try. Well,

Kristin Chmela: I. . I want to say that I feel great concern when I read different things on social media that downplay the importance of early stuttering treatment. And again, I don't think any child ever has to be fixed. I think in the early developmental period of the brain of a child, we have a great chance of helping development ease when it comes to communication.

And I am going to do everything I can to provide that opportunity for any child and for some children. , they may continue stuttering and for some children they won't continue. But this idea that people have to be fixed, is it almost stuns me to hear that. Of course. No, a child doesn't need to be fixed.

Uri Schneider: I think it's so important to just shift the frame from such a binary.

Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, either there's fixing or there's leaving it alone. There's such nuance and subtlety in so many ways to create an acceptance for the person just as they are. And at the same time opportunities for growth and evolution and development. So, um, I think the con, as you said, Kristen, it is concerning when the conversation becomes too polarized and too binary.

Kristin Chmela: I think sometimes when, you know, we only. Can see what we know, right? So when we have limited experience with the depth of these types of treatments and the manner in which we problem solve around each case, we might look at it very simply. We may, a speech pathologist may say to a parent, well, we're working on acceptance and the child is four.

And so there's so much we need to know. You know, any problem is complex, right? And with any problem, I go back to these basic principles. The more we ask ourself about what it is we're trying to figure out, the more we're able to meet the needs of the family.

Uri Schneider: I'll just make one more shout out to Jane Frazier.

besides that pre-conference in Miami, listening to Kristen not talking about problem solving and how much that influenced me. The second most influential experience more than graduate school, and I got a lot from some really great mentors was the Stuttering Foundation. A workshop with Willie, um, butter and Francis Cook and learning about how they look at assessment.

And every time we meet a young child, we take out that child summary chart. And speaking to your point, Kristen, figuring out what's developmentally appropriate, but also looking at things beyond the stuttering. What's the constitution of the child from a sensory point of view, from an emotional point of view, from a language communication spirit point of view.

You know, looking at all those things and those things help us figure out and problem solve, but you've gotta collect the dots. Um, gotta collect all the pieces. Uh, but what would, what are your thoughts on the working with young children? You've started. Yes.

Phil Schneider: I think that as I'm listening to you and soaking it in, and also reflecting on my own journey with trying to be supportive to people, the word fixing implies something's broken.

Mm-hmm. , the word supporting might be a better word, rather than we have to either ignore this, not have any kind of support or get rid of it, and that's the binary contrast. This is, this is a challenge for most people who have this treat and they need support and the different ways to support people and support is love and acceptance.

It's making sure the right values about life and and communicating remain on the forefront. It's about dealing with the values and the issues of feeling different and recognizing the fact that we all feel in a way, like we want to be like the others. reality of the world is everybody's different and everybody's got something they're hiding.

Mm-hmm. . So putting that, those feelings into a context which really normalizes the feeling of being abnormal. So I think that when you say, as I was trying to catch what you were sharing about that, that I, I don't, I don't go on those internet conversations, uh, they, they wind up looking very, very simplistic and very binary.

I think the reality is when you meet a person, you meet parents, you meet a child, it's very personal, and you become attached to those parents and to that child, and devoted to trying to help the parents and the child navigate mm-hmm. this thing which occurred in their lives. Nobody expected it. Nobody, uh, most very few human beings really think about this stuff when, when they're expecting a new child coming into their lives.

Right. And, uh, Helping them be able to sort out the feelings and the ideas and how to deal with it and realistic expectations and build up self-esteem. And I think there was a phrase I heard from you that I often try to hold onto, but I, I'm not sure I've got it right, but, but the image of it I use all the time.

Uh, so the words I have left in my head are a communicative spirit. The drive and the passion to make sure that you express what you hear in this world to express. Yes. Sometimes it's a little bit awkward, sometimes it's not awkward, but the value of that and helping children strengthen that, that inner drive to be sure that they know that what they have to say counts.

And I always felt when I was listening to you, that's one of the things that you somehow comes out of you. I'm sharing your own. and, uh, the, the, the, it's familiar to me, even though I don't stutter because I understand anxiety and fearfulness mm-hmm. to run away and duck and so forth versus to confront, and in the end you always feel better when you go back in and you say, this is what's happening.

And somehow once you go back and you face it and you, and you verbalize it, you're able to start to move toward change. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, I've always felt that from you. So I think that the, the job of the parents to make sure that they value what children have to say, whether it's bumpy or choppy or not that, wow.

Great question. Unbelievable joke. You know, how to make the world laugh and smile. What a gift that. , the greatest people in the world ask great questions. That's how the world evolves. Um, you ask the greatest questions, uh, you're angry and you're sharing it with us. I'm so happy that you can share your feelings, even if they're angry.

It's important that you share feelings. That's how great relationships evolve. So I think that for parents to be able to meet you and hear about these kinds of ideas on a very soulful level and to realize that everybody goes through these things, this is just the package that this issue is coming up for this child.

Mm-hmm. . So, uh, I just am happy you're in the world and keep doing this for people. Cuz you're right. I think that, uh, parents need that kind of support and children need that kind of support. And you do it in many, many ways. And you encourage the rest of us in this trade, in this industry to do the same thing.

That it's about support. We don't know the end goal. We don't know. We don't have a photograph of what someone's gonna look 20 years from now. Uh, we know where they're at now. We know anything is possible. And, uh, if we can see light in that image that something great can evolve, certainly your life is a testament to that from struggle, often comes gift.

And you are a incredible testament to that reality. So I think just knowing your story and using it well to support people that anything is possible is very, very helpful. While at the same time making it clear we don't have I the phrase candy. We don't have a crystal ball. Mm-hmm. Better to have the Kristen Ball

Uri Schneider: you.

Phil Schneider: You're perfectly perfect as you are and you're perfectly capable of becoming more perfect. And that's what life is about. And it involves struggle and frustration and victory and overcoming

Kristin Chmela: challenge. You know, Phil, uh, I think one of the reasons I love the word evolve so much. is that it's about letting go of the achievement of the goal of getting there and evolving.

It means growing, right? So with that comes the ability to embrace the imperfect and um, I think that, you know, as a clinician, the more we can model how imperfect we are, the more the family and the client feels that they can be who they are. You know, the most wonderful thing any parent can say to a child when they're stuttering or not stuttering is, I'm so glad you told me that.

I'm so glad you finished that. And to tell young children that the rule is you have to keep on talking is a wonderful thing, and they just look at you. and they get that. Somehow they get that.

Phil Schneider: Well, you really clarified and reaffirmed that in my, in my career and in my life, that, uh mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. helping to make sure parents don't forget.

Mm-hmm. . Uh, and there's an interesting paradox there, because the more you feel free to express yourself, the more you speak and the more you speak with passion and freedom and automaticity and spontaneity and passion, so you'll stutter more. Mm-hmm. stuttering is increased with passion and speed and complexity.

Kristin Chmela: So it might be, or you might stutter less. Thank you. Oh,

Phil Schneider: no. Mm-hmm. . But I think it'd be easy to, to mis evaluate, to mis, um, I don't think I'm getting the right wording here, but to misinterpret when a child really feels that freedom. Mm-hmm. , you may see more stuttering. I mean, the worst case of stuttering looks like this.

Mm-hmm. . . Mm-hmm. . And so if you're free to speak, and if we allow that and we encourage that, you're gonna see more of this thing, this other business, uh, and it could be a sign of tremendous growth.

Uri Schneider: It's not by chance that there's more people tuning in right now live from around the world than any other conversation we've had.

So if you're watching this, you're in the presence of greatness with Kristen Camilla and Dr. Phil Schneider. Your comments, your shares will help this, you know, spread and this conversation continues. I think the point that my father just made, you know, the most severe speech impediment is silence. Child words are kept inside or doesn't raise the hand to answer the question, to ask the question, to ask that other person out on a date or waits to get married cuz they don't think they're ready to say their vows.

the holding back is, is something we need to consider. So the, the way I frame what my father shared, and I think it's very much what Kristen was saying, is let's move away from a binary way of counting beams, of stuttered moments and working on fluency, and then thinking about, oh, fixing, not fixing. We want people to allow to be their greatest self, to communicate, to feel connected inside and outside and to each other and to others.

And, uh, how do we measure that? How do we look at that? How we look at it and think about it will help parents intuitively do the right thing. If parents think their job is to spare stuttering, they're gonna focus on that. They're gonna focus on fluency, they're gonna focus on extinguishing moments of stuttering.

If therapists think their job is to create fluent speech, they're gonna do all kinds of octa things that are super artificial, plastic and rigid, and probably not that applicable in real life. . But if we start thinking about this in the frame that Kristen was sharing, the spirit of my father's saying, you know, we start working on things that are not heb, he bgb, touchy feely, they're just holistic.

So help young people evolve, unfold in David Shapiro's words and evolve in Kristen's words, into becoming the greatest communicators that they can be. And kids who stutter and people who stutter can be above average communicators and they can change the world. And Kristen is a testament to that. And I think as parents, as teachers, as adults, as aunts, uncles, whatever role we play, we can be the adult.

It plants that seed of hope that puts that statement in front of a young person, that we believe in them, that we hold that flashlight for them until they can take it for themselves. And then the goal is they push us away and they take it because they've got it, they've got it, and it becomes their own torch for life.

To keep going forward because they know they can do it cuz someone told them they could do it before they knew they could do it, and then they've got it and we are there to just give it a little bit of, a little bit of fuel when necessary. So we need to wrap here, but hopefully there's a thousand comments.

Kristen. Uh, you know how to check these things. I think this will be posted for replay. Hopefully we'll have a round two. Kristen, maybe Possibly.

Kristin Chmela: Love to I would love to. This

Uri Schneider: was like, uh, total, total indulgent treat for me. And thank you both. Any closing words from, uh, from you, Kristen, or from again?

Kristin Chmela: Well, I do wanna thank you Phil for coming in.

You know, um, Dr. Phil was, I'm not even quite sure the first time we met, but I was very young and I was telling Yuri that. We would, when I would see you at a convention, we would sit down many times You invited me for the Friday night. I wanna say Sabbath, but I might be saying that wrong. And you allowed me to come into your space and just experience that beautiful spiritual energy that you have.

And I always felt myself,

do you have people cry on this Facebook thing because I . Um, and then everywhere year would go by and then we would meet again, and then we would have a conversation again. And you have been a major contributor in my life and thank you.

Phil Schneider: Thank you.

I had no idea. . Uh, thanks for sharing that. And, um, I think that your tears, and I have my own, um, are part of your transparency as a very whole feeling emotional person. We all learn from that, that vulnerability to really allow ourselves to have all these feelings and let them be part of our lives and be part of the world.

So it's very precious and we've cried together before. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, I value that. And I treasure it. I had one thought to end with, or at least from my last comment, given the timing that came to me as you were just both speaking, that's the difference between the word speak and the word communicate. Ah, yeah.

Speak is a physical act. It involves movement and sound. It can be measured, it can be recorded. Mm-hmm. . But that's a tool. It's not the goal. The goal is not in the physical world. The goal is to feel close to each other and to use speech and language as a way to know each other beyond the shape of our nose and the color of our eyes.

So we can really connect in this world and feel that we are not alone. And a person can fail to do this and have speech that has no interruptions in it. And a person can do it with a lot of interruptions. And it, the goal of communicate is not determined by how many interruptions or whether you have that trait or not.

And that's the goal that we can feel connected to ourselves and connected to each other and speaking and listening the two sides of that equation, communicating, connecting, is what it's really all about. I look forward to talking more. I'll,

Uri Schneider: I'll reach out. Thank you guys both for your time and your openness.

And this is what this is about. This started off as. Having conversations, Kristen and I would chat seldomly, but always very rich conversations in such regard for her and connection there. And then the thought was, there's so many people that would be enriched by being privy to these conversations and create a sort of bridge or ramp of access.

That's the spirit of this. And um, we hope to keep going. We're gonna take a break after this morning and a few minutes will be on with, uh, Dr. Gerald McGuire, some neuroscience right there as I'm emailing him to tell him a few minutes. He text me a text message. He needs a few minutes. Uhhuh in the universe.

Uh, but, but yeah, sharing this check out on Schneider speech.com/events. You'll see the schedule upcoming, uh, conversation. There've already been a number of requests for people to come back a second time. Mm-hmm. . And we have some meetups for people to actually have live interaction. Parent Meetup on October 18th, uh, a team meetup.

And then we're gonna have an adult meetup for any, anyone over the age of 13, we're gonna screen a virtual screening of the film, going with the Flow, A Guide to Transcending Stuttering, which is a sequel to the first film. All of those can be seen, you know, for free on our website, um, schneider speech.com/movies.

But the idea is building a world of connectivity and using our relationships to create more good and, uh, helping each other just achieve everything we wanna achieve. So thank you both for, for

Kristin Chmela: taking the time. Mary. I would love to have the opportunity to come back and talk more about early stuttering treatment, and I'd love to come back and talk more about Camp Shoutout and what we're seeing there with the children that.

we're so honored to be with summer after summer.

Uri Schneider: Mm-hmm. , you tell me when. I'll make that date available immediately. So just send me an email and we're on. Mm-hmm. . All right. Well, thank you everybody. I wish everyone a really great day. Thank you. Mm-hmm. , anyone that's listening, you can go on the Schneider's speech Facebook page.

Of course. I'll share it with Kristen as well for the different platforms that she has. Um, and all of these are available afterwards, as well as on our website, on the blog page, we try to put together some notes and summary and the full video playback. So thank you everyone. Have a beautiful day, and thank you, Ava.

And most importantly, Kristen. Camilla. So Precious, thank you for taking the time. My pleasure.

Kristin Chmela: Thank you. Mm-hmm.