BIO

John Moore is a marketing strategist, professional speaker, business book author and lifelong person who stutters. He played an instrumental role in the marketing that transformed Starbucks into a global icon and served as director of national marketing for Whole Foods Market. His consultancy, the Brand Autopsy Marketing Practice, works with organizations that are driven by purpose, not just profits. John has been involved with the National Stuttering Association since 2011 and currently lives in Greenville, SC.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

0:00 – 4:00 Chit-chat set-up

4:00 – 7:02 On Joe Biden and his stutter

7:03 – 8:33 On Biden’s inaugural address 

8:34 – 12:53  Growing up as a person who stutters

12:54 – 15:50 More childhood reflections and advice for kids who stutter

15:51 – 18:49 Uri’s parent perspective on advocating for children with teachers

18:50 – 20:52 Discussing the three people I knew who stuttered growing up

20:53 – 25:15 Importance of connecting with people who stutter

25:16 – 28:02 My experience dealing with adversity as a teenager

28:03 – 30:41 How I learned to persevere through adversity as a teenage 

30:41 – 33:00 Uri discussing how one caring adult can change a child’s life

33:01 – 36:09 People who stutter must not let self-stigma prevent them from achieving

36:10 – 40:00 The gifts of stuttering  including developing their “trying muscles”

40:01 – 42:34 Uri talking about viewing kids/people with a helpful, long-term perspective

42:35 – 48:00 Finding my career rhythm in life thanks to Starbucks

48:01 – 49:24 Uri sharing perspective on opening doors for people who stutter

49:25 – 53:21 Discussing the WeStutter@Work initiative from the National Stuttering Assoc.

54:00 – 10:02:51  Writing a business book. Giving presentations. Closing story.

RESOURCES

Speak Your Mind - Reverse the Stigma of Stuttering 

Watch - My Stutter, My Monster 

Upcoming events

MORE QUOTES

“The public stigma being is that people who stutter are less competent, less educated, less capable, shy, nervous, erratic, and dumb. It's awful. It's awful. But what's even more awful is when we stutter, start to believe those, and we put prohibitions on ourselves. We block ourselves from trying to do things.” - John Moore

“Believe that you are doing quality work, and that someone somewhere at some point in time is gonna recognize that quality work and it is going to elevate you. It's going to take you longer. But, you have to have patient. - John Moore

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: coming at you live, not from anywhere other than South Carolina with John Moore. What a treat. My name's Ur Schneider or Schneider speech, and it is a big treat. I've been waiting a long time, took a lot of lead time to have this conversation. It's a special day. It's a day after the inauguration of President Joseph Biden.

Um, which is significant for many reasons, but we're gonna go with the aspect of the fact that he's a person who stutters and along with his VP Kamala Harris, they are breaking ceilings and breaking what we're perceived as boundaries for people that have different types of difference, who are otherwise never in that position.

So focusing on the fact that we have a president of the United States who stutters that is very important and meaningful for this conversation today. Within the context of everything else, but that'll be our focus. And, and just in general, John Moore is, is a person of note. He is a person who, you know, you go to an NSA event.

I know for me you watch the guy command the stage and it is just incredible. It's incredible his charisma and his ability to take the room. And of course, he's also a person who stutters, so he knows it from the inside. So his insights, his journey will be incredible. The bio on John, just to embarrass him for a moment.

He's a marketing strategist. He's a professional speaker, uh, a business book author, and a lifelong person who stutters. He's played an instrumental role in the marketing that transformed Starbucks into a global icon and served as director of national Marketing at Whole Foods Market. These are all brands that people know well, thanks to John's marketing work and his consultancy, uh, the brand autopsy marketing practice works with organizations that are driven by purpose, not just profit.

And John's been involved with the National Stuttering Association since 2011. He is coming at us live from Greenville, South Carolina. Good morning, John. Hello Erie. How you doing today? Awesome. Better to be with you. Okay. Uh, come

John Moore: on now. It's you, dude.

Uri Schneider: Tell me, tell us, tell our friends what, what they should know about you beyond, beyond, what's the autopsy on you, beyond the bio?

John Moore: Beyond the bio. Um, I'll start off and say I take my job seriously myself, lightly. When I say I take my job seriously. I love talking ideas, marketing ideas, trying to build things up, trying to bring about change of some sort. So I take that aspect seriously. But in the process, if I'm not laughing, if I'm not having fun, if I'm not being a little bit sort of abolish and bringing some personality, I'm not really enjoying things.

So I try to mix being serious and being seriously silly.

Uri Schneider: It felt too early to bring, I was gonna bring some nice, um, home brew or some ipa. I know you're a fan of beer. What's your, what's your favorite? Well, again, everybody's got a different idea of what's okay after 12, after 11, after eight. But, um, we'll keep that aside for now.

What? , what do you go for? You're a pale ale guy. You're a stout guy. What's your thing?

John Moore: Uh, I'm usually a classic West coast. I p a guy. That's usually what I go for. Uh, people always ask, well, so what's your favorite beer? It's tough to say, cuz there's so many styles and so many of this, that and that. If I had to say, if I had one beer that I could have for the rest of my life, it would probably be Rofer Tin, which is a Belgian style strong ale or a quad.

I think it is an absolutely exquisitely made beer that is widely available in the States, yet it is just phenomenal. So that would be my desert island beer. Boom.

Uri Schneider: Boom. So what would you say growing up from John, or let's go with this, the president of the United States inauguration yesterday, what did that mean to you today and what does that mean to John Moore, the 12 year old kid or the 12 year old kid of today who stutters.

What's meaningful about that?

John Moore: You know, I think it comes down to a couple different things. One, it's, it is a fascinating story. It is an inspiring story. Both Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, both of them have fascinating stories that are inspiring millions of people, not just here but around, but around the world, to know that stigmas can be broken.

And that's where I see all of this is so much of people who stutter, our lives are guided. Our lives are blocked by public stigma. The public stigma being is that people who stutter are less competent, less educated, less capable, shy, nervous, erratic, and dumb. It's awful. It's awful. But what's even more awful is when we stutter, start to believe those, and we put prohibitions on ourselves.

We block ourselves from trying to do things. So the public stigma's awful. But the self-stigma of you thinking that, Why can't I even try to become president of the United States? Cuz I would have to give an inauguration address like Joe Biden just did yesterday. I can't even get up in front of five people.

I can't even get up in front of my classmates and read a book report. I can't do that. But by seeing that, it plants the seed to know that we can do that. Um, so to me that is the big thing. So as a 12 year old child, I would've been probably fascinated by that. But also as a 12 year old child, as I am a 15 year old who has the inner 12 year old child, I would want President Biden to talk more about stuttering, to talk more about that he doesn't necessarily about better for him to define what he means when he says, I beat my.

Because I think when he says, I beat my stutter, the media and the public picks up, oh, he's overcome it so that he's now fluent. And I think anyone who has any idea about seeing people talk and knowing what we, who stutter do to minimize our stutter, we see that in Joe Biden all the time. So I would love for him to show some more vulnerability.

He did it amazingly, and he does it, uh, does it amazingly. But he picks and chooses his spots talking about how he mentors young people and children who stutter and that is awesome. I love that. I just wish that he would be more open about it. However, with him being there, all this media conversation that is going on about Joe Biden, what was beautiful was seeing all the graphics pop up about there was no limit to what a person who stutter can achieve.

Seeing that on so many social media spots that involve stuttering and that don't involve stuttering, that was beautiful to see. And that just lets us know that we should not let stuttering stop us from doing whatever we think we have the potential to achieve. Incredible,

Uri Schneider: incredible. When you look at Joe Biden and you see him stepping up there, what, what were, what was running through your mind on a personal level?

Is that a funny, conver, not fun, interesting conversation with a friend of mine who stutters today. What was going through his head when you were watching Joe Biden giving that speech, was there anything running through your head in particular above and beyond everything you just said about the, the significance of the moment, but in that moment of listening to the speech or watching him speak, was there anything running through your head that you would share?

The only

John Moore: thing that I kind of felt, which was nice to hear, was a little bit more kindness and caring and I thought that was nice to kind of hear just from an overall global type of message. Cuz I think we all could use some more of that right now. Uh, but usually, I'll be honest with you, I get kind of fixated on what he does to minimize his stutter.

and I noticed, what did you see? What did you see? Well, I see the workarounds. I see the pauses. I see the pause before saying block or the pause before saying president. Just something like that. Just knowing that we who stutter, who have found some rhythm in life. We have our little things that we do, you know?

Um, I also, granted he has a script and as we all know, famously is his script. He marks it up, blah, blah, blah. So he's able to then kind of pace things out. But to me, I just sit back and I just go, that is, that takes courage to do what he does. And he's become very skilled at that. And again, it just gives me and gives others who stutter hope that we can put ourselves out there and do the same thing.

Uri Schneider: Amazing, amazing. So in your journey, I know there was, you know, in your career there was a big opening of a door for you, but growing up, what was it like? And you've given some amazing speeches. I shared one or two. Videos and we'll share more on the blog, but, uh, you've given some awesome speeches. You've shed some light into what it was like growing up.

Uh, can you share a little bit about what it was like growing up as a kid who stutters and what were some of those impressionable moments, tough moments perhaps, and also some of those breakthrough experiences? Yeah.

John Moore: Um, I grew up in the seventies, so shout of the seventies, teenager in the eighties. Uh, so in the seventies, I'll be honest with you, I had a somewhat easy life, middle class life, Dallas, Texas.

I say somewhat easy, but it was also more challenging because I was put into speech therapy pre-K. So I was going to speech therapist at the age of four. and that was to work on articulation issues. Rst, hsw, some l some some

Uri Schneider: is to fix the Texas, fix the Texas accent. Well,

John Moore: you know, actually we can talk about that, but I think what I've end up doing is sometimes it's tough to tell that I have and from Texas because of things that I do to, I don't know, we can talk about that later.

Uri Schneider: But as a kid, well, Doug, Doug Scott, Doug Scott is watching us now and he has, you know, he's got his radar on you to make sure you

John Moore: live a little Texas out. He, he, he wants me to do this. I know that. There you go. I'll do this. Cause I'm a Baylor bear. But that's story. Um, so as a kid it was tough because, I mean, all of us who stutter that go in, go into therapy as a child, we all have the story of being taken outta class and it's somewhat embarrassing and it was made even for me more embarrassing because I have a twin.

So my twin sister, as I've talked about before in the past, she had a star by her name and that store has said that she used to be put in all the advanced level classes. She had that star, I had this dot and this dot basically said, John's should be taken outta class and he's gonna go to speech therapy twice a week or something.

I think of that and that dot continued throughout my entire life. I think cuz that dot was that scarlet letter, that stigma, that point that says, oh, John has some needs that he needs to get. So because he stutters, he must not be as intelligent and not as smart as his twin. Insist, who has a star by her name.

I can recall doing a book report in the third, third grade socks the Cat, Beverly. Clearly I did not like being assigned reading books, but for some reason I loved socks. The Cat, I love the book. So guess what I did? I tried really, really hard to do an awesome book report. And I spent a lot of time on it.

In, in the past, I probably didn't spend the time on it cause I just wasn't motivated. I turned in the book report, I get an F on the paper, uh, what am I supposed to think? I'm trying really hard. I still get shot down. My mom, who was a, who was an ex school teacher, she was livid and guess what she did? She championed me, went to the teacher and said, how could you give John an F on this paper?

Well, because it's not his work. My mom said, it's all his work. I saw him do the work. So when you start getting those little things at that age, it's tough because that just beats you down. I also tell the story about in high school where my twin sister took a class before I did, it was an English class because she was in the AP classes, the advanced placement classes, and I, a year after her had the same assignment.

I stole her paper. I plagiarized her paper. This was before you could do it cuz you can't do it now. Cause of all the digital stuff. I plagiarized her paper, I changed the title, changed some words. My sister received an A plus on that paper. Guess what I received on that paper? C minus. I'm 17, 16 years old.

The stutter has, has to be a hindrance to let the teacher know that this cannot be good work because he stutters. And that stigma to me is what motivates me today is because I don't want people who stutter to have to face that same sort of stigma that I faced growing up. So those were two really pivotal times in my childhood that impacted me through let me know that my life was gonna be very, very challenging being a person who st.

Uri Schneider: you are a master storyteller. And I, I am literally brought to tears when I watch you do that on the video that I shared. Uh, so that one of those stories was familiar. The second one less, I love listening to you now. What if you could go back, you could rewrite the script. Yeah. You could retell the story.

What would you have hoped that teacher would've known? And it's also for the teacher of today, of that 12 year old Timmy that's in Dallas or Timmy that's in Greenville. What would you have hoped would've been different? That may have changed the story because too often today, teachers and adults and speech therapists, they see the child who stutters and they see the tag on the I E P or they see the speech interruptions and maybe with good intentions, hopefully with good intentions, they think they're supporting the child.

Hmm. In your case, there comes also the stigma of the feeling of, oh, I can't, can't produce great work. He can't even get his words out. Stigma and misunderstanding like that. But on the other hand, there are many people that are just putting in protective measures and limitations and constraints cuz they think that's helpful.

If you could go back and rewrite the script, what would you do?

John Moore: So I'll tell you one story here too that kind of plays into this. We all know we who started hate giving presentations in class. We hate that growing up because it just puts ourselves in that tough spot. I would try to avoid doing that, but I would use creativity to avoid doing that.

As I said, I was kind of fortunate because I grew up middle class home. Um, as a teenager, I had a video camera. This was back in the eighties, had a video camera. So instead of getting up in front of my classmates to give a presentation, I would actually record a video of me doing this. I would take two VCRs, attach 'em to a tv, and somehow found some way to cut in between to create a video to where I could have different shots going.

I would also have to perfect the stop and start on the camera so I could change scenes. I say that because when I turn in that sort of assignment, , I get incredible marks because, oh, John's showing his creativity. So it was interesting that I could get good marks there, but bad marks on a piece of paper.

So that was interesting. But I think as far as anything for as what I would tell, I would tell myself then would be keep trying and, and knowing that you have to believe in yourself. Believe that you are doing quality, quality work, and that someone somewhere at some point in time is gonna recognize that quality work and it is going to elevate you.

It's gonna take you longer. Absolutely. Cuz nothing comes easy or very little comes easy for people who stutter in life. You have to have patience. But more importantly, that perseverance, you must persevere, but you must never give up.

Uri Schneider: powerful. You know, just listening to the tone and the spirit of your voice is enough for me.

I would say as a father of twins, you know, I'm not a twin, but I have twin girls and uh, they couldn't be more different one from the other. And one of them has a more, more timid, less of an extrovert doesn't jump to raise her hand, in fact, shys away and we'll kind of go into a little bit of a turtle shell sometimes.

And, um, I found that I find with people who stutter, young people who stutter, when you're navigating how to, how to advocate for your young person, your child, you know, it's a delicate thing cuz you don't want to go up front and you don't wanna make impressions on the teacher and the adults and the camp before the kid goes, or the school before the school year starts.

On the other hand, you don't want teachers to put that dot on your kid and size 'em up and project. So it's, it, there's no right way. But I would say that my wife and I always deliberate. And this year, just this week we had a p t a phone call with our daughter's teacher and it was. after we had proactively set up a phone call, maybe a week or two into the school year where we kind of just checked in and said, how's she doing?

What does it look like socially, academically? Now she's socially, you know, everybody gravitates to her. She's everybody's friend. She's generous, she's kind. She's got all the right stuff. She's bright and everything. She just doesn't like to be in the spotlight. And the more you push her to do things she's uncomfortable to do, the more you're gonna lose her.

And the more you create a little bit of space and a little bit of choice, the more she's gonna shine. So I'm just sharing this in the sense that now it's mid-year, the teacher came back and said, I'm so grateful that you gave us that information, because now we see her flourishing, we see her raising her hand, we see her participating, and we never would've gotten.

Without your input as parents. So I just wanna invite people who are listening to John's story. On the one hand, the message for the individual is keep at it. You know, the right person will see you. And if you feel someone's not treating you right, like legitimately tormenting you, teasing you day after day kids in your class, even adults in the school saying things or doing things that just don't feel right.

Know that you can talk to your parents. Know that you can find that ally in school, that school counselor, whoever feels like a, a safe, responsible adult that you can turn to hopefully your parents and hopefully one or two people at school. But you're gonna have tough teachers that are gonna give you a hard time.

You're gonna have kids that are gonna give you a hard time. That's part of growing up. Hopefully it changes over time and hopefully after 12 years of school you start to be able to make some choices for yourself. Yeah, you graduate, you get your degree and with hard work you get to shine and go with what you're good at.

But I would just say parents don't don. , don't sit back and watch, you know, pick up the phone, set up a conversation, talk to the child, depending on their age if they want to be involved or if they have some say in it. But getting in front of this and setting up a line of communication with teachers can, can destigmatize things, can inform the uninformed and can change the whole experience for young people, cuz they can't bear the burden to do it on their own.

They need allies and parents are certainly the first and foremost and some adults in the school can be too. What do you, what do you have to say about that, John? You know,

John Moore: um, I'm gonna go back to some of my life experience on that. Uh, something that I can, can look back on and see it's missed opportunities.

And growing up I didn't really have anybody that I knew who stuttered. So of course you feel alone. But I look back on it and I realize, wait a minute, that's wrong. I had two adults in my life who stuttered and a student in my life who stuttered. Two adults. One was a pastor at my church, youth pastor at my church.

Unfortunately, guess what? We knew. We started, we talked, we had conversations. But I wish you would've pulled me aside and said, John, let me share with you some of the challenges you're going to face in life. And let me just give you the pat on the back to say that what might feel awful today, you're gonna find your rhythm in life.

You're gonna find it. That never happened. Never happened with a high school teacher. He had a slight stutter. My old slight stutterer. I was in his class. You are stuttered. Did he pull me aside? No. So I make it a point now that I don't wanna be like that. I want to pave it forward. I want to pave the road forward so the next person who stutters behind me is not gonna face the rocky life that I had to f or to face less of a rocky life, cuz it is a rocky life.

But the third person that I knew was in high school. We're in the same class, 900 people in the same class, two kids who stuttered. Did we talk maybe once? I regret that. I so regret that. So I share that tidbit to let you know that if you are a child who stutters, a teenager who stutters, and you find someone else who stutters form a bond, form a friendship, you guys are gonna have an unspoken bond from the moment you meet.

And that's only gonna get stronger and it's gonna be a good support system for you in life.

Uri Schneider: Yeah. Peer-to-peer support is, is such a gift. And for those that could have had it right it, and sometimes those, those encounters an adult and a child, you don't know, should you bring it up? Should you not? And like you said, as a young person, you wish he had.

And so, for those that can, and it's been a theme with so many people that have been in these conversations. One thing that I'm picking up is a adults that took the time to make that conversation, to have that uncomfortable conversation. Mm-hmm. . But sometimes that was the biggest opening in a person's life, was just to know they had someone they could talk to who had been in their shoes and had walked in that place and had gotten to a higher ground and could really understand it more than anyone else.

And if you have peers, you know, classmates or access to things like the National Stuttering Association and other groups like friends where you can meet other people who stutter, uh, the power of community is incredibly powerful. Might be a good transition. John, talk about what, you know, what you're most proud of and also excited about with what's going on with the National Stuttering Association, which has really pivoted along with all the other organizations into the time we're living in, uh, hopefully temporarily with exclusively online stuff, but as soon as it's safe.

Going back to in-person, but what are you, what are you excited to share for these young people? To have opportunities that could change their lives?

John Moore: Yeah. Um, this is a tough time because, because the National Stuttering Stuttering Association, their point of difference is having over 200 local community support groups for people who stutter.

I actually, I actually shy from calling them support groups because if you go to a support group, basically I say I have a problem cuz I talk different. Doesn't mean I have a problem, but it's a supportive group and you get to talk with people who stutter. So, so in person is fantastic, but we've had to of course, go to, go to online, go to virtual, and it's still meaningful and it's still needed, especially now when many people feel kind of sequestered.

So just that connection and that right there helps with folks just to know A, a, they are not, they are not alone. And B, that they can talk about challenges. I remember one time on our call that we had, um, we had a teenager. Join us and he was talking about his challenges at work and where his boss was telling him to speed it up, spit it out.

Oh boy. But what was great was he could talk about that with, with, with, with us. And we were able just to give him some reasoned experience and some advice to basically say, you're gonna experience that, but, but don't let that, don't let that hurt you. Develop some thick skin because you're going to hear that more often.

So those opportunities to, to meet. And for adults, what I think is also great is that we attract so many people at so many different stages during their stuttering journey. Some folks have totally accepted their stutter. Some folks are just in the process of beginning to accept their stutter. And by accepting the stutter, that's not giving up.

That's just knowing that, you know what, I'm gonna have to navigate life with a stutter. . It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing. But when you start to learn from someone who has gone down the path, who is, who can look back on the road and say, you know, here's what I did. Just doing that is fantastic. Then you also have folks that, um, that really might have a strong stutter and they are not yet feeling comfortable in, in sharing, but they feel comfortable in belonging and at some point they're gonna move down this path.

So it is amazing how meeting with other folks who stutter can transform how you view yourself, which is gonna dramatically impact how you live your life. And I think that's the beauty of what having 200 plus local support groups for, for adults, kids, teens, families, it's just a beautiful thing. .

Uri Schneider: Yeah. And I, I can just attest to everything that John said and more the power of, of those meetings, the power of organizations like National Studying Association is beyond description.

You've gotta, you've gotta taste it, you've gotta experience it to really grasp it, but it's everything John just said and more. Um, so what I'm curious, John, that teenager, so it sounds like he needed some support. He needed a safe space where he could air that out and not feel like there'd be consequence.

But I'm so curious. What was your advice, or what was some experience that you had in your life where someone told you, Hey John, spit it out, man, come on, let's go. We don't have all day. And people who stutter get that quite a bit and, and people might not realize or might think it's reasonable ribbing or they might be doing it maliciously.

What, what would you tell someone or that teenager, what kind of advice or how did you handle it in your journey?

John Moore: I got kinda lucky cause I don't think I really felt being bullied much, but it was also because of my twin sister. My twin sister was the smart, popular, pretty cheerleader type, so I had a connection to the cool kids.

The cool kids are here. I'm outside here, but I have a connection here. So I didn't feel as though I got bullied. I just felt as though too many times doors closed. I was a huge sports fan. One, one thing on how I coped being a person who stutters is I try to become extremely knowledgeable in things, and I found it easier to become extremely knowledgeable about sports growing up.

So I read about sports, I read sports biographies. I, I, I read and I learned, I played, but I was only competent. Wasn't really great, but basketball cards, baseball cards, football cards. I knew players and teams and I was a sports. I memorized stats on the back of the cards. So there was something about just being a huge nerd on sports, especially a basketball nerd, massive.

I remember that the Dallas Mavericks were putting together sort of a, uh, teen ambassador group who better to be a teen ambassador for the Dallas Mavericks. Then me, I could name every player that played on the Mavericks since they began in 1980. I knew that the Dallas Mavericks were basically came from the bust.

We came from the Buffalo Braves to an extent. I knew all this stuff. Boom, boom, boom. I go through the interview as a 14, 15 year old, do I get the job? Do I get that role? No. Um, is, is there someone else there who is as passionate about the Mavericks as me? I doubt. . And so those doors closing, that's what I felt throughout my entire life.

It's just seeing too many, too many doors closed. So yeah, I'm bruised on the back end, and that's really where I felt my life kind of catering in and closing in is those doors not opening up and knowing that I had to continuously knock and knock and knock and try to find some door that opened up in life.

Uri Schneider: Now there's another chapter to this story clearly, but before we get to that chapter, what was helpful to keep your head above water, enduring all these closing doors, enduring this tag, this dot that you felt on your name. What do you think contributed? Obviously it sounds like your sister was a certain link to the Cool Kids Club.

You were one degree of separation, as you said. Um, but what, you know, what do you attribute, whether it's family, whether it's personal character, whether it was other things you invested in. What was it? Because it sounds like school was, school was not a winning place, wasn't a happy place. Sounds like. Yeah.

Uh, it sounds like the places you invested in with sports trivia, you thought that might be your ticket and in certain arenas it probably was, but in one place where you went for it to go for the big time, the, you feel the door shut on you. How did you endure all these times? Feeling that door gets shut on you?

That's fascinating to me. As we think about all kids, I think I tell my kids the biggest skill to learn in life is not mathematics and it's not biology. It's problem solving and resilience and bouncing back. I'm more proud of any young person, my own kids, kids. I'm involved with people I'm involved with myself.

Counting it as a win when you bounce back from a tough situation is more important than whether you got it on the first try. A second try, or the third try. So it sounds like you are a fighter. You are a walking story of resilience. Before we get to the breakthrough, how did you endure?

John Moore: I don't have a good answer for you on that.

I think it's a combination of things. My parents were loving, caring, supportive, and my mom believed in me. My dad believed in me. My dad grew up with a stutter, grew out of it. Um, but he could see some of that. So I had a good support system at home. Um, I also think that, so forming some friendships, some deep, deep friendships with some folks that I could feel as though I wasn't special.

I was regular. That was a good thing. But I also think was just the continuous was, I would also say small wins. Trying to see those little things that I found success in and say that, you know what? I did good here. I did good there. I didn't do so well here. I did very poor here. But finding those little things that I was able.

to find success in. I think that helped me just to give me some idea. But I also think as deep down inside I knew, I knew I was capable of doing things and, and I knew it was just gonna be a be a matter of time before the capability became reality.

Uri Schneider: Well, it sounds like, and you know, you kind of mentioned it right there, that your parents believed in you and that nurtured something inside of you that believed deep down, as much as the grades might not have shown it, and this teacher might have bruised you this way, and the door closed here or there, that your parents instilled in you confidence in yourself.

And I think for parents, when you've got a kid who stutters, what I see in the office so often is parents wanna save their kid. They wanna get 'em to stop stuttering because that's gonna be the ticket to success in life. And in doing so, we often have to calculate, I, I've got this idea, I'm trying. Within the professional circles, in addition to looking at the outcomes of our therapy, we need to look at what are the side effects.

Mm-hmm. , you know, with any medication you take, you take medication to be better, to be well, to be stronger. Now, stuttering is not an illness. I'm not using that analogy and I wanna be explicit about that. But I do wanna say speech therapy can be a very supportive experience when done right. Uh, and at the same time, when done wrong, there can be side effects.

And so similarly for parents to recognize as soon as possible, if you have an older child who's been stuttering for a while, it's important to start to develop a way of, you know, relating to the young person far beyond their fluency. And the quicker you do that, the more you're gonna give them the ticket for life.

You're gonna give them that golden ticket. You know, and, and what John just said, what I hear coming is with all the tough goes and with all. Lessons of life that were learned. Not the easy way to parents believing in you, put in you a belief in yourself that you could make it, that you could do it, that you were worth it.

And I think in the end of the day, that's the most precious message we could send any kid. So whether we're professional or parent, I think that's the message that young people need. Because as you said, that teacher that puts that message, you're not a plus material, even if you hand in the exact same paper as your sister who got an A plus.

So objectively same work. Sure. But because you were tagged, what does that tell a young person who's not John that tells that young person why even try? Mm-hmm. . But the young person who doesn't give up, , there's gotta be someone who sends him a stronger message. You're worth it. You got it. I believe in you.

You're something, you're something special. You're gonna make it. And I think there's tons of research that I can share later that talks about the difference between a kid becoming a statistic or becoming a success story is one caring adult that sends that message.

John Moore: Yeah. You know, you know, you, you just touched upon two words that I think, uh, are, are, are important.

Why try the why try effect. There's a paper out there. Um, I forgot who put it out there, but the why try effect is brilliant is the fact that too many times people who stutter say themselves, why try to become a lawyer? Why try to become a doctor? Why try to become a museum tour guy? Despite the fact that I know everything about art history?

That's awful. That's what blocks us from doing things. So we need to flip it from why try to, why not try. . And as I, and, and if you're not trying for yourself and you try for someone else, you try for someone because if you go for a job interview for, for a tour guide at a museum and you're stuttering and you have that, and you then get to make a connection with someone else, that person now has a better idea of how to interpret stuttering and how to see someone who stutters so that the person who follows that person who first made contact.

Cuz to me, that personal connection, when we want to eradicate self-stigma, I think it comes down to the individual who stutters to take that lead, to put themselves out there so that they have, have conversations with people, they make connections with people and they go, wait a minute, that John Moore guy, yeah, he talks kind of funny, but he knew that Chuck Connors was drafted by the Boston Celtics.

Oh my goodness. He knew that Dave de Buscher was actually. Actually was a picture in the White Sox, sis sis sis system before he started playing for the New York Knicks. You start to realize that, wait a minute, this person has some value. But we have to put ourselves out there to to do that. And we can't rely on the public changing their perception of stuttering without us trying to change the perception from the inside out.

We who stutter, have responsibility to put ourselves out there to talk, to, put ourselves out there in positions that others don't think we are capable of being in. Because every small act is going to accrue up to making change so that the stigma can be minimized greatly. But really I think it comes down to us first eradicating self-stigma and that is trying to achieve certain things that others think we shouldn't be able to achieve.

That's

Uri Schneider: so powerful. You could add to that. The why not the why me. Yeah, why me? Maybe someone else, maybe, maybe maybe my classmate, right? Like I've got, I've got all the aptitude and everything but me. Yeah. And as you said, but why not me? Mm-hmm. , why not me? Yeah. Yeah. Why not me? And, uh, to look at, again, to look at President Joe Biden and to just say how many times he could have said, why me when he went through, went through so many different stages of tragedy in his life.

Um, there were any number of excuses and times where he could have given up and, and rightfully so. Um, but I think in addition to his story is the story of resilience. And the other piece of his legacy is really being able to work with people and bring people together and work across the aisle. And people who stutter often talk about many gain the upside of being great listeners, of being empathic, of being people who bring people together, uh, more than the average person maybe.

Uh, what's your thoughts on that? Yeah,

John Moore: so, so the gifts of stuttering. Stuttering gives you gifts. And as you talk about there, gifts of being a good listener, gifts of, I think people who I talk to, we feel as though we are more empathetic. We can, we can feel things a little bit better. Uh, I also think the gifts really go into, on the try trying harder.

We learn how to exercise our trying muscles. We learn how to work harder. We learn how to prepare for certain assignments, jobs, this, that, and that. Quick story. That might be kind of, kind of a long story. I'm gonna go back to my twin sister. It, for, for her, everything came easy. She didn't have to study. She made great grades automatically.

She didn't have to do anything. So she finished the top 10 in her high school class of 900 people. I was way down that list. But guess what? She didn't have to try in high school. She did not have to exercise the muscles. . She did not know how to work out in trying hard in school. She goes to college and granted math major at Vanderbilt, extremely difficult.

But she struggled because she did not know how to study. She never worked the muscles. I learned how to work my muscles early on and I continue that throughout my entire life. And the story gets sad is my sister never was able to find her rhythm in life. My sister, she, she never was able to accomplish what she was able to accomplish.

And notice how I'm using past tenses here. My sister, unfortunately struggled to be able to use her unbelievable skillset in life. My sister struggled so that she had to turn to things to kind of ease her pain to drugs and alcohol. She never, that star that she had by her name sadly, became a falling star.

My dot goes here, our lives crossed, and it pains me, it pains me to realize this, but I'm gonna go back to, to the gifts that we have. We, you stutter have these gifts. We need to use them. We need to see stuttering as a positive. And I view being able to work hard as a positive. And sadly, my sister passed away and it pains me to know that she never exercised and never learned how to use the trying muscles that she could have learned.

But that's because life came easy for her. Life didn't come easy for me, so I had to try, try twice as hard, three times as hard. It took me longer to achieve things. But I'm still here trying, and I'm gonna be here tomorrow trying, sadly, my sister will not be able to make the contribution. to the world that she was capable of.

But we who are here, we have that opportunity. So we should do it. Uh, I'm sorry to go.

Uri Schneider: No, go everywhere. I, I knew that and I didn't wanna bring it up. I was with you earlier in the past few months when you shared that and shared memories of that. And I think it's so compelling. Um, and I can only extend my deepest, uh, sympathy and empathy and condolences.

But the story is so compelling and, um, I think what's, what, what jumps out at me and my father often says, when meet young people, we all wanna see young people succeed. And we all wanna see young people who are happy. But what John is telling us is some young people have a star next to their name and they look like they got it all.

that's not necessarily the ingredients that make for a happy, successful, self-sufficient, healthy adult. And I think we need to think about, you know, raising young people, educating young people if they're our own or they're our students, or just people in the community. We wanna build, we wanna plant seeds for young people to grow into adults who are independent emotionally, financially, spiritually, in every which domain.

Uh, happy kids who have it easy necessarily, doesn't necessarily add up to a recipe of success in the long term. And sometimes the kids that look like they're struggling, the kids that look like they're stuck in the school of hard knocks end up with a degree far more valuable for life than those who had Easy Street.

And I'll tell one story similarly. So I get phone calls about people in the, in certain communities where they do matchmaking for weddings and things like that. And they're looking at a boy and this boy, he's a great boy today at 21. But once upon a time, they say that at age 15 he had a stutter. , do you think he's eligible?

I said, well, it depends what you're looking for. You know, are you looking for someone with the perfect genetic code? Uh, good luck finding him. But if you're looking for someone with sterling character who seems to be sensitive, who needs to put his head down, who knows how to care for other people, who will care for your daughter, who will be devoted, dedicated husband, a person who earns a living, a person who's a role model, a person who's a, a giver, it seems like you're telling me he adds up.

They said, yeah, but you know, the stutter. And I said, what you just said. I said, you know, in many ways, not only do I think he's, he cuts, you know, he makes the cut. I think that this young man, in many ways has a leg up on the other one who has what looks like the silver spoon, the perfect trajectory. He's never, ever shown any kind of failings, any kind of cracks.

I would say that adult life and certainly relationships are fraught with challenges. So if you take this kid who you say, once upon a time at age 15, had a stutter, and look at him today. , he is an achiever. He's connected, he's social. He gets out there whether he stutters or not, he's battle tested. Mm-hmm.

you know, that he stands the tests. Whereas this other one, he's never been tested. So he looks perfect today, but you don't know what's gonna be. And in life and in business and in relationships, it's all about resilience. It's all about perseverance. It's all about problem solving. Mm-hmm. . Um, so I think that's very powerful.

You can take that to your trajectory of career. Cuz we heard about the John that had the school of hard knocks, but I know at some point you, you had a breakthrough, a door open for you. I dunno if you wanna go there now or whatever you'd like to run with. Sure.

John Moore: Um, I got kind of lucky, but I also helped to prepare to have luck.

So as I went back, as I told you previously, the one thing that I tried to do was to overcompensate for my stutterer. My stutterer back in the day was a lot stronger than it is today, but how I would overcompensate was I would try to become knowledgeable so, I graduated from Baylor Radio, tv, film D degree.

Um, I didn't really set up to get any sort of a job afterwards. I, I just, I just kind of coasted. It was bad. It was not good. I did not prepare. I did not try hard enough, so I went back to school, kind of marketing. We got a marketing marketing degree and when I was back in school, I needed a part-time job.

Starbucks was just coming to Dallas. This was in 94, and I been being aware of things in marketing, so, oh, yeah, Starbucks is, this is, you know, this is an interesting thing. Here's, here's this company that has a square focus on. and they are trying to, they are trying to elevate coffee and they also are trying to treat their employees better and so many other things.

So I went, this sounds cool. And it was also at the time, a trendy job to have, you know, being a barista. This was actually prior to what we've seen today and all.

Uri Schneider: So how was your Italian before you started working there? Uh, my

John Moore: Italian was nonexistent, but let me, but let me tell you though about the training, because you, he had to learn S star bucking East.

We had to learn that Starbucks drink language. They would have a dice game that you would play.

Uri Schneider: It's a special, it's a special, it's a special place in Italy that speaks this language.

John Moore: Yes. All of it's a, it is an island. Island, off island. Staci Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so they, so we had to say Grande Nonino.

There's a certain way that you can say it. So they would have dice. I would take that dice home and I would memorize all this stuff and I had all this stuff down. So again, trying harder. So long story short, um, I get a job at Starbucks in school. I started to read marketing books. You can look over here.

I've got a library, marketing books. I used to have 2000, now that's a thousand cuz I wanna become a subject matter expert. I wanna become deeply knowledgeable about this. So I inhaled knowledge. Got out of school, was a media planner for an advertising, a a a a, a agency in Dallas. I still kept my job at Starbucks.

96, a job, opened up at Starbucks to become a field marketing specialist. I was still at Starbucks, working on Saturdays behind the bar. So here's what I end up doing for this job, is I'm there. I show up about half hour prior to the interview. I know the store manager we're there. I'm dressed, looking professional.

I'm talking to the store manager with the retail wall, and we're kind of talking about things, blah, blah, blah. In comes my potential, potential new boss, she sees that I have this connection with the store manager. She sees me looking professional talking shop. So the first impression, beautiful. She didn't know I stuttered.

I did not disclose that I stuttered previously. We sit down to talk. I opened my mouth. Disclosure happened . It's just there, bam. But what I also showed her though was my Excel spreadsheets of all the media buying planning that I had been doing for the advertising. You see, she sees this detailed, intricate Excel spreadsheet, attention to detail, which is a trade of a person who stutters.

She sees that I'm there talking, talking with the store manager cuz this job is gonna be talking with, with store managers. So I ended up getting hired for that job. She hired me based upon my passion, not my Polish. Lisa Denny Compton saved my life. She hired me, she championed me, not just there, but throughout my Starbucks career.

She championed me. If Lisa wasn't in my life to open that one door for me. After all those other doors were closed, she opened that one door for me. Bam. An ally, a champion, a supporter, a believer, a mentor. My life changed right there. And I from, from there, I would say that I gained some extra confidence in a certain.

But I was also in the right spot because I was able to live and breathe all thanks Starbucks. Bring in some of some of my knowledge from this, that, and that, and just working my butt off and making an impact. So that door opened up then it was in Seattle for about four, four years doing corporate marketing and just having a blast.

Just loving all aspects of that. So that's that story about how that one door was opened up by that one person who saved my life when I was a 24, 25 year old

Uri Schneider: adult. I love, I love to say it, almost every conversation, John, it's the same story. It's working your butt off. It's not a handout you were waiting for, it was just someone had to say, hand up and I'm gonna turn the handle open that door.

You're gonna walk through it and you're gonna either show that you earned it or you're gonna burn it. Yep. Earn it or burn it. But you know, someone opening the door. So I think the same way you were amplifying the message for those people who stutter, who feel comfortable enough, who feel strong enough when you can be open about your stuttering.

Not only do you help yourself and the person you're talking to, but you actually pave the way to redefine how people think about stuttering, how people under, uh, treat stuttering, how people treat people who stutter and judge people who stutter. That is a game changing thing from the bottom up. And if you're in a position, in an employment situation or in a leadership situation in your community, opening the door to someone that shows that interest, shows that proclivity, and for whatever reason, maybe they're holding themselves back or maybe someone's holding them back, opening that door, creating that ramp so that they can get into that room and prove themselves.

And if they can prove themselves, you change someone's life. And if they don't, they're just another candidate that just didn't make the cut. Mm-hmm. . But that is so important. So the same way people can advocate for themselves and in turn make a splash for others. And you never know where the ripples go, who it touches or how far it goes.

in employment, the same thing. So segue two, talk to me about what the National Stuttering Association has been doing, which is incredible. Putting a spotlight on employment, which is so important. We talk about the kids, we talk about the teens, but there wasn't enough really being done till recently to really put it on the radar for adults who are in jobs or are in the market for jobs and thinking about their stutter and how to navigate that.

So you've been a big part of that. Can you tell us about that and how people could take advantage of it?

John Moore: Finding career success is a challenge for people who stutter, getting that one door to open up. But once you're in, in that door, what you can then do to continue to grow. So we also know that when you take a look at past nsa, NSA conferences, one of the most popular types of sessions are those that are involving careers.

Job interview, um, job interview, some of the, some of the social skills for. How to network some of the stuff there of how to deal to deal with a boss and just how to grow within a career. So we know that so many people who stutter struggle in their twenties and thirties to find career suc career success.

So, uh, this was back in 2019 or so, I think it was at the start of that We Stutter at Work is an initiative from the National Stuttering Stuttering Association led by Pamela Mertz. Karloff. You know them well, your listeners know them well and what this is all about doing is trying to educate and to empower people who stutter to get in a great job and to find success in their job.

So it's done by a couple ways. There were webinars and about six per year are put on Beautiful Thing is totally. Totally free. All of them are archived. Good. We stutter.org/career success. Once you go there, you start to see the tabs that are there. There are about 16, 16 webinars on all types of topics of how to succeed in giving a presentation.

Job interviewing skills, the question of disclosure, not disclose at at work, how to be successful as a covert stutter at work. Now that you have the job, what's next? So the, it covers a lot of great territory for us who stutter. Second thing that is also there is mock interviews. You can get a free practice job in in, in job interview that is gonna be hosted and led by a person who stutter.

And it's gonna give you practice. And so what ends up happening there is that we will start off and we will just give some basic questions like you might expect within a job interview. And then we talk about it. And we also, in that conversation, we give them some tips for things to do and things not to do.

We tell them what they did awesome, and we tell them some things that they might want to improve upon. But there's also something in there that I think is really special. Career profiles, real people, real stutters in really good jobs. People have been profiled and you can take a look at, there are almost 60 profiles of people who stutter, finding career success that can inspire you and can inform you on what you might be able to do when you're trying to get that one door to

Uri Schneider: open up.

Awesome. So I think I put the link there in this thread, but if somebody can double check that, that is a tremendous resource for so many people because truly in the end of the day where the rubber hits the pavement for a lot of people is with employment. And it is super exciting from every angle to see the NSA really taking the lead on that initiative with some stellar individuals.

Um, I know George Dia and, uh, Al outta New York, and, but around the content, Pamela Mertz of course, and Carl Coffee of course, and so many others jumping on this, it's such an important thing for so many people. What's something we haven't touched on that you'd like to share, John? It could be humorous, it could be personal.

Uh, Doug is asking, what's that funny game you like to play? You can go anywhere. Funny game. I like to play, but I was

John Moore: gonna have to

Uri Schneider: put that in. That's dangerous. Let's keep that in a private session. Yeah. Uh, I have

John Moore: two things I wanna share. So

Uri Schneider: I noticed you did the, you did the horns. There you go. Two things.

That's a Dallas. No,

John Moore: no. This is a P-Funk thing. Parliament Funkadelic thing. This is my P-Funk sign. It ain't the hook. This is P-Funk. Okay, you look over here, I got a whole bunch of music. But that's the difference. Listen,

Uri Schneider: between the books and the music, you're set. Yeah. Well,

John Moore: the, uh, so two things is what I ended up doing is I, so I spent time at Starbucks Whole Foods, and then I, as you know, I have read so many business books and I'm going like, you know, I've had some interesting experiences and I'm someone that collects little things.

I would write stuff down here, here and there, and I said, you know what? I would lo, I would love to, to write a business book. So, so back in 2005, I signed a contract to write a book about Starbucks Travel Knowledge. Some of the lessons that I learned from my days at Starbucks. Here's where the issue that comes into this.

You write a business book, you don't make a lot of money off of the book sales. You only make money giving presentations. Uh, hello. How stupid am I to even go down that path? Ah, but that's why I try. Right. You know, so one thing that, that I ended up finding out is when I went for, when I went for my job interview at Whole Foods, it was a panel in interview.

Prior to even getting there, I had to go through a phone interview and different story, but it was awful. I just sta and stuttered. Not that it's bad, but I'm going like, how am I gonna be perceived? But again, I had a champion, John, come on down to Austin, Texas. Boom. I had 12 people in this panel. All super smart folks.

I'm there seated down. I got 12 people there, and I'm there. But I show passion. I show charisma, and I show smarts. One thing that they did, they gave me an assignment prior to it, a written assignment, which is basically doing kind of a marketing study on Whole Foods. Guess what I did? I used all my, my work.

type of muscles and I created a hell of a document to let them know, this guy thinks pretty smart, but the deal is in that job interview. I'm there, I'm talking. I get the job. I find out six months later, someone came to me and said, John, I don't think we've told you this. You left that room. Every one of us looked around and said, we need some of that.

We need some of that passion. I wanna go back to my desk and work twice as hard. After being a part of that right there, hearing that planted that big seed in me that says, wait a minute, maybe I will never be the most polished speaker, but I will be one of the most passionate speakers. And that gave me that little nudge that said that while writing a business book means you have to speak about it, it gave me confidence to know that I might be able to get my point across on stage and do it.

So the people or both, they are educated. As well as inspired to make things happen.

Uri Schneider: Where can people, uh, contact you? Whether, and, and what are you, what, what are you open for? Uh, both on the professional side and also on the mentorship and stuttering conversation side. What are the best ways for people to be in touch and engage?

John Moore: Um, if you wanna find out more about me, go to brand autopsy.com, brand autopsy.com, or shoot me an email, john brand autopsy.com.

Um, you can go that way. Th they're, uh, what I hope to, uh, accomplish. I, I just want to make life easier for people who stutter so that they don't have to face the same sort of pain. I do have one final thing that I wanna share to kind of do a callback. So remember how in childhood I stuttered and things, but I didn't feel as though I don't recall being bullied or having a difficult time.

I, a couple years ago, someone sent me a note and it caught me off guard and I didn't realize what I was in for, in, for when I read the note. So I'm going to read it. It's kind of short, so it's a letter. John, I've wanted to write you for a long time, but I wasn't sure how to start. There were things in life that stay with us, things that we do that if we could go back in time and, and go back in time and erase, we would, one of mine involved you in, in Mr.

Dower's class, seventh grade. One day I heard someone trying to speak and stuttering. I made fun not realizing it was you. When I turned around and saw the hurt on your face, I felt horrible, but I wasn't mature enough to apologize. I've never forgotten what an ugly thing I did and how it hurt your feelings.

I know it's been a long time since then and you may not even remember, but I am so, so very sorry, John. Hearing that makes me tear up now hearing that makes me realize that we who stutter can have an impact on people's lives that we don't even realize until decades later. We make an impact because we are so memorable cuz of how we talk.

Yeah. It might be an absolute horrible time that we experience stuttering and stammering and feeling. But we can impact lives. And you may not never realize the lives that you impact until far later in your life, but just know, be you. Don't give up. Try put yourself out there. Be vulnerable. Give, give, and give, and you're going to, at some point in time, receive.

Uri Schneider: Amen. Uh, John, this has been a delicious time. I feel fired up. I hope some people that have been listening feel fired up, feel stronger and, and brighter. If you're someone that has the potential to receive from this, then God bless and take advantage of everything John has shared and all the resources that have been shared.

And if you're someone in a, in a position that you have something to pay. Take John's message and charge to give back. You pay it forward in any which way. And it can be in the most private, quiet ways. And it can be in the most, it can be in financial ways. It can be in ways where you give your time. It can be in opening a door, making a connection, forwarding a resume, any number of things.

But just recognize, as John said, what I'm taking away, uh, listening to this conversation being part of this. It doesn't always look pretty. And at certain moments it can be really, really rough. And sometimes if you can hang in, if you can hold space and make sure the people feel they have support, they're not alone.

Give them faith in themselves and confidence in their worth, and give them the ability to keep working at it and to know not why Try, why not? Not why me? Why not? And then find those allies that will open doors for that person. The very thing that can be so difficult and challenging can build the muscles that change your life for the better.

And, uh, certainly I'm inspired by you, John. I'm inspired by people who stutter. I also recognize how many people are stuck in challenging spots and don't know how to dig themselves out. Parents who are trying to figure themselves out, professionals, we can do this only together. Nobody can do it alone. So organizations like the National Stuttering Association and role models like John, who give so much of themselves selflessly to pour in and pay it forward to change the lives of others when they could just coast on, should be, you know, champions and really, you know, flag bearers of what we should all be doing.

So I'm inspired. I hope others are. Thank you for listening. If you wanna get more, check out the podcast. Transcending Stuttering with Roy Schneider. It's on every podcast platform. Subscribe, follow, drop a review, uh, check out our blog, some great articles and material there. We've also got the Transcending Stuttering Academy for people who stutter for professionals to just get free emails, and also opportunities to be part of group cohorts of learning and growing together and growing through this and really transcending stuttering.

But for now, let's celebrate. President of the United States is a man who stutters. There's nothing that a person who stutters cannot achieve. The ceiling is broken, and similarly for everything the Vice President Rep represents. But for this moment, for this conversation focusing on for people who stutter, for parents of kids who stutter for teachers, do not underestimate and do not put a ceiling on the potential and on what a young person or your older person who stutters can do.

And when you do that, you'll be surprised and better for it. So I thank you all for joining us. Please share this. Please comment please. Like I think this was a gem, one of the greats. John is a gem. I thank him for his time and your shares and comments. We'll pay it forward. , thank you.