#79 Life on Delay with John Hendrickson
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
BIO
John Hendrickson is a senior editor at The Atlantic and the author of Life on Delay. He previously wrote and edited for Rolling Stone, Esquire, and The Denver Post. His Atlantic feature “What Joe Biden Can’t Bring Himself to Say” was named one of the best stories of 2019 by Longform. He lives in New York City with his wife.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00 - 3:30 Intro
3:30 - 11:04 Interview on MSNBC
11:04 - 17:37 Finding comfortables spaces ‘The Little Room’
17:37 - 23:05 Debunking the golden rule of measuring success in speech
23:05 - 29:50 Finding respite and liberation in music.
29:50- 32-12 How you describe yourself matters.
32:12 - 36:21 Allow yourself to dream
36:21 - 41:12 The power of Longevity and consistency
41:12 - 45:56 Words that describe John
45:56 - 50:09 Discovering new things/milestones in John’s life.
50:09 - 54:19 John’s wife, Liz, and her impact on his stuttering journey.
54:19 - 1:00:19 Main takeaway of ‘Life on Delay’
1:00:19 - 1:04:55 What John would say to his 12 year old self.
1:04:55 - 1:06:38 Avoiding uncomfortable conversations is not the better choice.
1:06:38 - 1:10:35 A message for the world to hear ‘Give up on perfection’.
1:10:35 - 1:12:03 Outro.
RESOURCE LIST
MORE QUOTES
“I would tell myself that this thing, this daily problem of yours will be your biggest motivator in life. And it's gonna make you work harder.” - John Hendrickson
“Just cause something's uncomfortable, it might be important enough to still talk about it. And to avoid important conversations is not the better choice.” - Uri Schneider
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: well, here we are, Uri Schneider, the host of Transcending Stuttering. And today's guest is John Hendrickson. Thank you so much, John.
John Hendrickson: Thanks so much for having me on.
Uri Schneider: Thank you for coming. , I reached out to John quite some time ago, following one of his, magnificent articles where he interviewed, now President Joe Biden.
Uri Schneider: I'll give John's formal introduction because it's worth noting his accomplishments and, what he does on a daily basis. And of course, he also is the author of forthcoming book called Life on Delay, and you can get that book on Amazon. It'll be coming out in January, and I feel privileged to have gotten my eyeballs on it.
Uri Schneider: I shared with John. off the record that I am borderline dyslexic, and that is not a joke. I got through serious literature classes in high school and college reading, maybe one or two books. One of them was Catcher in the Rye, which also gets featured in John's book, um, but not many others. And I could not put this book down.
Uri Schneider: So I cannot recommend this book enthusiastically enough against Life on Delay. It'll be out in January, but you can already pre-order it on Amazon and you can thank me later. So John Hendrickson is the senior editor at The Atlantic. He's also the author of Life on Delay, previously wrote and edited for Rolling Stone, Esquire and the Denver Post, his Atlantic feature.
Uri Schneider: What Joe Biden can't bring himself to say was named one of the best stories of 2019 by Longform. He lives in New York City with his wife. And I always like to ask our guest, John, what's something that you would like people to know about you, uh, that doesn't appear in that formal bio?
John Hendrickson: I'm a person who stutters and I think that's the reason I'm on this podcast here today. And, uh,
John Hendrickson: it's, it's been interesting making that part of, of my bio these past three or four years. Cause I lived the first three years of my life and didn't advertise that fact about myself at all. So, I'm learning how to do that
Uri Schneider: actively. Amazing. So there's a little game we'll play. It's just a free association and we're here with a master editor word smither.
Uri Schneider: So, , if I say the word, uh, ice cream, what's the first word that comes to mind? Vanilla. Vanilla. I'm with you. Baseball. Baseball. Cal Ripkin. I thought you might say that. Having read the book and then the next one, stuttering
John Hendrickson: Journey.
Uri Schneider: Brilliant. Awesome. So I shared a little bit of my enthusiasm for the book. I think I mentioned it about three times before we even got started. Um, and I mean, everything that I said, it is clearly something that stands on its own two feet. And the truth is, John, I would have you on the podcast even if you didn't stutter, um, interviewing Joe Biden.
Uri Schneider: Uh, the book kind of starts with that setting of you in the preparation room. For the interview that followed the article coming out when you were interviewed on MSNBC and I remember that day watching that video, and it was so powerful for me getting the backstory because seeing you on television and reading the words you write about your experience are obviously the same and not the same.
Uri Schneider: Um, what you see is not what yet and what you see on the outside is not what's going on on the inside. What would you want people to know about that interview? Uh, that makes it that centerpiece launch point for the book starting Because for many of us who saw it on the outside, it was remarkable.
Uri Schneider: The poise, the confidence, chin up. Um, and in the book you share a bit of the inner experience, but if you could share just a little bit of what it was like in that prep room going on stage, going on television.
John Hendrickson: Well, thank you for all those nice compliments. I appreciate that a lot. I obviously had never done any tv, radio, podcast, any public
John Hendrickson: speaking like that, um, ever. And that day was a Friday morning and the previous day, Thursday morning, was when my article went up on the Atlantic and at the end of the day, Thursday, the invitation came in to go on MSNBC the next day. and I really had to think about it. It was not something where I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds great.
John Hendrickson: I was, I really had to take time to think about it and I was terrified and it was not something that I wanted to do. Um, but I thought that it would be critical of me not to do it because the thrust of my article I just written was about Joe Biden not fully
John Hendrickson: owning the present day manifestation of his dis fluency.
John Hendrickson: How could I rate that about someone else and then not go live it up myself. And I kind of thought, that's really my only answer here. So in those moments, right before going on tv, I was absolutely terrified and
John Hendrickson: not confident. Not like every other person you see on cable news. She's really polished and slick and talks in sound bites. And so I begin this book just trying to put the reader in my head space in the moment because I think it's beneficial just to be transparent and, and let's say, you know, no, I was not confident or ready.
John Hendrickson: It was just, uh, it was an opportunity and I, I didn't wanna waste the opportunity.
Uri Schneider: It's incredibly, it's incredibly raw and it's incredibly real and it's incredibly brave cuz you didn't have to do that. Um, you accepted the invitation, you did the interview, and I'm sure you know some of this, but maybe not the full extent, but it made its rounds, it made its rounds in general circles and it made its rounds in the stuttering community and it made its rounds also in the professional community..
Uri Schneider: And I think it's interesting and I think it also spotlights the importance of recognizing that stuttering is not just what the listener sees and hears, but there's also that internal experience, the thoughts, the feelings that are as significant, if not even for some people more significant than what is happening on the surface that's audible. Do you wanna add anything to punctuate that? Cause I thought you, you're way with words and your personal example is obviously just outstanding, but I thought that was so well done at the beginning of the book. Do you wanna add anything on that above the surface, beneath the surface, and what you wish people would know about that?
John Hendrickson: Thank you.
John Hendrickson: Conversation is, is always an exchange. It's never one-sided. That's a monologue, but the conversation is an exchange of ideas and be it watching a conversation on TV or listening to a conversation on a podcast. It's, it's a exchange of ideas. And two people are involved in their two active participants.
John Hendrickson: And I think that's a microcosm in every interaction. If you're buying a coffee, if, if you're, if you're ordering a restaurant, if you're picking up the telephone, there are two people involved. Or if you're at a party, you could be in a circle of five or six people and everyone's talking.
John Hendrickson: and people who stutter
John Hendrickson: know the mechanics of what's happening. They know what a block feels like, what a repetition is like, and, and we know what it is to lose our breath and that lightheaded feeling.
John Hendrickson: But I would imagine that most people who stutter would tell you that the toughest part is the reactions of other people.
John Hendrickson: And I don't think
John Hendrickson: you can really write about or talk about or make a movie about stuttering without giving weight and time to the reactions of other folks, particularly fluent people.
Uri Schneider: Absolutely.
Uri Schneider: You described this term and I shared with you in preparation for today, right at the beginning of the book, you talk about when you, when I, you write, when I was young, my life was defined by little rooms, and you go on a bit later on page 12, you describe one of these little rooms.
Uri Schneider: I'll just read this little section here. Cause I thought it was, it was helpful. It, I think it was helpful for me as a speech therapist. It was helpful for me as a parent. It was helpful for me to think of being a classmate. and I think could be helpful to listeners who are teachers, therapists, parents, and classmates.
Uri Schneider: There's a knock kids stare. As I stand to leave the class, I walk down two flights of slate steps, turn the corner and enter a little room. Everything in the little room is little, little table, little chair, little bookshelf. But now I'm older and I can hit a baseball and win knockout at recess, so that decor is infantilizing.
Uri Schneider: I've always been tall and gangly at seven. My knees barely fit under the table. Most little rooms are peppered with the same five or 10 motivational posters, neon, black letters, emphatic, italics, maybe an iceberg or some other visual metaphor to explain your complex existence. Well, this little room has a strange brown carpet that I stare into when the school therapist brings up my problem.
Uri Schneider: She's careful never to use the word stutter. Okay, let's start from the beginning. and so begin so many conversations in these little rooms and you revisit these little rooms, whether it's before the interview, you revisit this room when you go to meet with Dr. Joe Donaher, and then you talk about your psychotherapist, George, and you compare and contrast the evolution of the fittingness of the feeling at home or the lack of feeling at home, the lack of feeling safe in these rooms, and just reflect on that evolution of little rooms and what you meant by that.
Uri Schneider: And maybe obviously what we could take away from that. Just putting ourselves back at seven year old gangly John, sitting at a table that his legs don't fit. I can totally relate to that. And then finding comfortable spaces. Comfortable rooms,
John Hendrickson: going to the little room and even just using that phrase, it's, it's very much like saying the, look, if I were to
John Hendrickson: tell a fellow person who stutters, oh, I got the look just now at the coffee shop, they would know exactly what I mean. I wouldn't have to explain it. And I think if I were to say, oh yeah, you know, when I was a kid, I was pulled outta class, went down to the little room, they would, they would say, oh yeah, yeah, me too.
John Hendrickson: When you're four and proportional to the, to the objects and the decor within the little room, it's okay. As you keep getting older and older and bigger, it reminds you that you still have this problem that you had when you were a four and that it hasn't gotten better and that maybe it's getting worse and that this is a room for kids.
John Hendrickson: This is a childhood problem and you keep getting older. Maybe now you're 10 12 and you're going to this little room with toys and you're too old to be in this room. That's a hard part of therapy and
John Hendrickson: as an adult, when I finally went to
John Hendrickson: psychotherapy, um, around the age of 30, , um, it was once again in a little room, but it was lived in and it, there were bookshelves and there was a picture of Bob Dylan and I felt age appropriate in that room. And being comfortable in that room made me feel comfortable as if I could open up and as if I wasn't just dealing with a childhood problem, but processing real adult things.
John Hendrickson: And I think the physical spaces where we dig into these part of ourselves really matter.
Uri Schneider: As I shared with you the day after I read that passage, I explicitly welcomed someone into a room where I was the host and I said to this person who's in his twenties said, I hope this is an inviting space for you. And, uh, I didn't have Bob Dylan on the wall, but quickly took interest in what he was interested in.
Uri Schneider: And I think it's so interesting to hear you talk about it, that it made you feel like you should have taken care of this when you were a kid. You're still here. That's an angle that I'd never thought of. I do always think the importance of rightness of fit. You wouldn't go shopping in the, toddler section when you're shopping for a pre-teen.
Uri Schneider: You know, it's different style. It's different sizes To have anyone sitting at a table where their knees don't fit, I mean, that's a physically explicit indicator that the space doesn't fit the person and the person doesn't feel welcome. Um, but there's so many other more subtle signals that we need to consider in all the rooms that we host, in all the rooms we send people into.
Uri Schneider: Um, there was another line in that same page goes onto the next page where the speech therapist starts helping you. And every time you block on a letter C, uh, you're right here. I sense a pinch of frustration from across the table. After enough attempts, I can read one whole sentence in a breathy robotic monotone.
Uri Schneider: For some reason, this way of speaking is considered monumental success. I think the way I just read that is more embarrassing than my stutter. I think that's profound and surprising to a lot of people. It's not surprising to me, but it's a very poignant anecdote. Do you wanna reflect on that? Why the fluid flow of speech in that manner, which most people think is the golden rule is, is the measure of success, the go, you know, the way we measure success, helping someone who stutters is getting them to be able to have uninterrupted flow of speech.
Uri Schneider: And yet you in your book, and we can hear countless people report this, when you actually care to ask, how did that feel. It felt, yeah, as you said, it felt more uncomfortable than just more embarrassing than just stuttering. I think that's profoundly surprising to a lot of people. Do you wanna just shed some light on that?
John Hendrickson: I think it gets
John Hendrickson: back to what I was saying earlier, just about the nature of conversation. You know, we know the way everybody else talks and we know that we don't talk that way. And rather than pursuing total fluency at all times, I think a lot of people who stutter would be satisfied with just being able to be conversational and be dynamic in conversation, being.
John Hendrickson: Improvisational and not feel like a robot that early therapies seen is in the early nineties, and it seems that until roughly 2000, maybe a little after 2000, pretty much all therapy was based on fluency. Gaping and holding up fluency as the only goal. And then you get to a place now where, It's, it's much more nuanced therapy and a lot of therapists really, really are promoting confidence and conversation and eye contact, and they're, they're less putting fluency on the pedestal.
John Hendrickson: My cohort, my generation probably is the last one to receive purely fluency based therapy. As a kid, I would hope that now that first grade kid getting pulled out of class is getting a more rounded version of therapy. But you never know.
Uri Schneider: Uh, yeah. Not to disappoint, but I think the purpose of your book is to raise awareness that that should be the way it should be.
Uri Schneider: And certainly the purpose of this podcast and the purpose of everything that I'm trying to do with transcending stuttering is to make sure that the kid in Montgomery, Alabama, and not to single out Montgomery, Alabama, but just taking one place that people don't think of. It's not New York City, but it's a place where people live, and it's a place where kids get therapy.
Uri Schneider: Most of them were getting therapy in school. That therapy shouldn't look the way it looked 40 years ago. And it should have that nuance and that these young people should have access to people who are gonna be champions for them to have the confidence and sense of worth and sense of value and sense of trust in their words, that people will listen.
Uri Schneider: And sadly, I don't think we've gotten far enough. And so I think your book is part of a process of evolution, of advancement, of fixing, but there's a lot more work to do that we can all do together. So, I think to me that's the yardstick. It's not what's happening in the support groups of upper Manhattan, which are wonderful.
Uri Schneider: Um, but it's really a question of how far can we go? How widely can we reach those kids that live in other parts of the country, between California and New York, those other states. And then people around the world. We're talking about millions of people who stutter.
Uri Schneider: I'll get off my soapbox. There's one more anecdote that I'd love almost to invite you to close your eyes and listen to what you wrote here, because.
Uri Schneider: You described the tension, you described the tightness, you described the feeling of uneasiness and class assignments and reading and saying one's name. Then you described the scene of when Ms. Simpson cranked her radio. My shoulders dropped and my lungs felt full. We looked like douses up there in our khaki pants and plaid skirts, but we were a unit of dufus.
Uri Schneider: Now this had a special meaning. A special meaning when you're the class stutterer. An hour ago you were flustered and out of breath, pushing and pulling at a missing word, sensing that familiar sweat drip down the back of your neck. Now you're just another kid doing the swim under the boardwalk. So, you know, what was that like having those, I guess, respite or those opportunities to just exhale and were there others and how, how much did those mean to you?
John Hendrickson: It meant everything, music from a very, very early age was that respite and that liberation. From dancing at lunch as a second grader, uh, like an idiot to hanging along with the car radio to a couple nights ago. It was a good friend's birthday, and we did karaoke and I sang multiple songs in a packed bar and totally fluent, you know, it's a different neural pathway than the one used in conversation and the list of professionals, singers who.
John Hendrickson: Either, either some, either stuttered as kids or currently stuttered is filled with icons. Elvis Presley, bill Withers,
John Hendrickson: Noel Gallagher, um, ed Sheeran, Kendrick Lamar, and many, if not all of them have said music is, is what made them feel. and it's, it's amazing. I, it's, it's just an incredible feeling just to not have to think at all. You get up there and you, and you could be in front of a hundred people at a bar and you're holding the microphone in and you just have total confidence that you're going to lose yourself in this performance.
John Hendrickson: And it's, it's, it has this redeeming quality and I think whatever that respite is as a kid, maybe it's music, maybe it's playing on a team, doing something that maybe it's drama, art, writing. I think it's really essential to find that respite and live it up.
Uri Schneider: I think through the book you know many people have these posters from the Stuttering Foundation or know that you can look online and find all sorts of famous people who stutter some of them openly, some of them reportedly once upon a time talk about stuttering once upon a time.
Uri Schneider: Won't get into the nuance of that, but I do wanna just the idea of respite and you talk about like we can't minimize or trivialize the intensity of the experience when you're living with life on delay words onlay and the verbal expectations and the pace and rhythm of the world around you, whether it's your dinner table.
Uri Schneider: That's a classic, uh, Carly Simon story where she couldn't get the butter from the other end of the table so her somebody suggested to sing it out. And that's where we get Carly Simon. So there's this disproportionate number of people who stutter the percentage of people in the performing arts. Who stutter is a higher percentage than the general population, which is not to suggest that people who are artistically inclined have some, uh, tendency towards stuttering.
Uri Schneider: I think we would find similar in your field, in journalism and in writing. I think people who make it, those who make it, those people who stutter, who make it tend to discover and cultivate a very rich and deep expression through the arts. Whether it's through writing, whether it's through music, whether it's dance, whether it's through performance.
Uri Schneider: I think what I just wanna drive home is the, the delight as a second grader of having a lunch dance off looking like a doofus. Two things stand out. One is your shoulders dropped. You could finally feel at ease. We all know every human being knows there's certain situations that feel high stakes for the kid who stutters in the class.
Uri Schneider: Everything feels high stakes and there's very little downtime. and then suddenly it's recess. That's not downtime. Yeah, that's not downtime. And so navigating communication throughout the day being such an enormous stress and press of just work of schmidtz. So the idea and the importance of finding those places of respite and delight for one can just let their guard down what you said it meant.
Uri Schneider: Everything. And then the second part of that beating, when you find a kid that is the summer kid, he doesn't thrive in the class, you know, the regular months of the year, but he thrives in the summer or he thrives in nature, he thrives in the music room, whatever he's living through, whether it's stuff at home, whether it's stuttering, whether it's learning challenges, whatever that might be, cultivating those interests and, and, and giving that person an opportunity to really develop that part of themselves can make all the difference.
Uri Schneider: I
John Hendrickson: agree. And I think it, it gets back to the way we identify. Do you call yourself a stutterer? Do you call yourself a person who stutters? Um, writing in the book, I use them kind of interchangeably. But whenever talking or introducing myself or just describing things, 99% of the time I say, person who stutters.
John Hendrickson: Um, and I think that's important. And I, I, and it was important to me to not put the word itself. In the main title of my book, it's in the subtitle and the first word is obviously life. You know, it is, this is a book about being a person who stutters, but more than that, it's just a book about life, as broad as that sounds.
John Hendrickson: And paradoxically, this is a disorder that can define us in a lot of ways. It can define every aspect of our lives, but it can also be very motivating to be more than a stutter, to make sure that you are something else.
John Hendrickson: I think adversity
Uri Schneider: in general is challenging and for some people it's too much.
Uri Schneider: And it can be something that really breaks people and people drown without enough support, without enough of what they need as humans. If oxygen and oxygen has different currencies for different people, but at the same time, what you're saying is so very true that sometimes adversity, it, it develops a muscle that other people don't develop as quickly and it can be an asset.
Uri Schneider: There was a report you wrote in fourth grade where I think everyone had to interview somebody. And you interviewed your father and you wrote about your father who was a journalist. Was that right? For the Washington Post. And um, you write in the last paragraph, this is John in fourth grade writing.
Uri Schneider: Paul told me that reporting is more fun than writing. because you find out what makes the world tick. Maybe someday I'll be an author, a reporter, a feature story writer and a dad. John, there's the line that I was referring. Um, so thinking about that now as your book is coming out, thinking these were the words you wrote in fourth grade and kind of just allowing yourself to dream or to write that, how do you reflect on that?
Uri Schneider: Or does that hit you the way it hit me when I read the words on the page?
John Hendrickson: Well, the, the fact that that's in the book at all, I, I really owe to my parents, you know, to my dad. being so great in that interview back in 1998, and to my mom for saving every piece of homework, every crappy little drawing I did in art class, everything, just boxes of it in our basement. And when I told them I was working on this project and I asked my mom, do you have any old photos?
John Hendrickson: Do you have any old things that I could look at? Yes. My mom was just her endless, the support and pride in me just had those boxes going and waiting. Um, and it head trip to go through that old stuff. Look at your old handwriting, read those old words and put yourself back in that time and place.
John Hendrickson: But it makes me, very emotional and just very proud to think like when I wrote that class work assignment in fourth grade sometime in 97, 98, that now, and as it's about to be 2023, I'm gonna check that box.
Uri Schneider: Check that box 25 years later. It gives me the chills. I think so many kids' dreams are killed before they breathe light of day. And um, I think we need to give them a little bit of light a day, because 25 years is not a long time, but it feels like day and night, I'm sure. Knowing that what you were describing going through during those years to imagine that you had the audacity to write that or whether it was just kind of felt like you were filling in the assignment, but to look at it, I'd like, wow.
Uri Schneider: And Joe Biden, I remember when he spoke, this was before he was selected to be vice president, those talks that he gave live in person at the i s benefit, he says at age 16 he had this wicked nickname Dash, cuz he talked like Morse code and that's how prominent his stutter was, that his, his nickname was about his speech.
Uri Schneider: And that's pretty defining and limiting. And he says it was more likely at that stage in life that I thought I would win the Nobel Prize in chemistry. Then become a lifelong politician, career politician. And I stunk at chemistry , but the the, the way life goes, it's like if we just let people dream a little bit, then they can live their dreams.
Uri Schneider: It's amazing. And then you're blazing a trail for people behind you. There's a theme that comes through here. I'm gonna jump ahead to another chapter here where you talk about your love of Cal Ripkin coming back to baseball. Um, now I wasn't from dc I'm a Bronx boy, so Cal Ripkin didn't get on my wall, but I did appreciate his streak.
Uri Schneider: For people that don't know baseball, Cal Ripkin was a phenomenal player, but what stands out is the following number, 2,632 consecutive games in the lineup on the field, and in any. We don't look at endurance and longevity the way we should. Um, I won't get into the questions of Michael Jordan and LeBron James, but, but there's something to be said for longevity and consistency and so you talk about having Cal Ripkin on your wall and you idolized Cal because he kept showing up, and I think that's also a piece of your story and a piece of what you're putting forth through the book.
Uri Schneider: Do you wanna just talk about the power of showing up, merely showing up what that means and why that's significant?
John Hendrickson: The poster on my wall, it, it was Cal with his, with his outstretched hand. It was on, on the night that Cal broke Lou Gehrig's original record, which was 2,130 games. And he took a literal victory lap around the park and they paused the game and he got this amazing ovation. And it was a really emotional moment.
John Hendrickson: It was like one of the greatest moments in baseball history. And, um, as you said, it wasn't about the number of home runs he hit or the number of World Series he won, it was just that consistency. And the, the bottom of the poster says perseverance. And then it's a definition of the word perseverance. And I put that on my wall behind my bed when I was in third or fourth grade or fifth grade, around that time.
John Hendrickson: And, um, that word was a, a little. beyond my vocabulary at that age, but I had the definition of it right there. And I think just looking at that every day before going downstairs and going back to school and dealing with the very , prominence, stutter, it was just a role model.
John Hendrickson: And there are kids who, who face and continue to face much, much, much greater adversity than me. The much harder circumstances. The fact that I even had my own bedroom and the warm place to sleep, the fact that I had breakfast on the table, that. Puts me ahead of millions of people. And I, I absolutely recognize that.
John Hendrickson: But , in your 10 year old brain being the only kid in class who stutters and having those books come around to read passages next and you know it's gonna be hard when it comes. You need a role model. And Cal was mine.
Uri Schneider: I'm so glad you brought that up. Cuz the other poster that I highlighted here, the Jackie Robinson and Jackie Robinson poster at another word, a definition, and that word is courage. My friend Dan Greenwald loves to talk about the courage muscle. He's a person who stutters and he says, people who stutter.
Uri Schneider: gotta flex the courage muscle. Every time you read in class and however you face that moment, you can define it with the courage that you have and the perseverance that you display and you can show your classmates. This isn't easy. This is me flexing my courage, my perseverance. Um, it's a beautiful image of your bed, Cal Ripkin and Jackie Robinson.
Uri Schneider: I really appreciated that. If we, I mean, it's hard to believe there's so many gems, but we won't get to touch all of them. If we take like a meta pull back a little bit, and I asked you, what would you say are two or three characteristics that make John John, in addition to being a person who stutters throughout your life from being, uh, a second, third, fourth grader that we meet through the book.
Uri Schneider: Until today, what are two or three characteristics that you feel stand out about you?
Uri Schneider: Oh, man. That's hard. We can skip it if you want, but I know you have perseverance and courage. Yeah, no, I'm happy.
I,
John Hendrickson: uh, I think a lot of people who stutter or people with many other disabilities in turn heightened the other senses, and in the other language process, in, and, things I'm trying to say. And so I think, ever since I was a little kid that I've, I've been very observant. I Loved just riding in the backseat of the car, looking out the window, and just taking everything in and making a mental map of where everything was.
John Hendrickson: I remember one time my parents were away and I had a babysitter and, and I got sick and had to go to the doctor. And this was, you know, long before smartphones, Google maps, anything. And the babysitter was briefly freaking out. And I told her like, no, I know how to get there. And, and it was a 20 minute car ride with a lot of left turns and right turns and all sorts of turns.
John Hendrickson: And I was in elementary school and I, I was like, yeah, it okay, go that way. Go that way. And I gotta say, and so I think. The power of observation in the people who stutter is very high and going hand in that listening, I think every person who stutters I've ever met is a great listener and we are careful to let other people finish their sentences.
John Hendrickson: And I think we're empathetic listeners. And so the third quality maybe is the combination of observation and listening, which yields curiosity. And I, I think people who stutter are great at being curious about other people and asking people questions and really wanting to get to know someone.
John Hendrickson: And those three qualities in particular are the bedrock of journalism. Um, and I think that's one of the reasons I ended up as a journalist,
Uri Schneider: journalism and a couple other, you know, profess good things, professions, and just people in life. So you don't, you know, this is not new to you, but for someone who hasn't heard it, I just wanna punctuate like right.
Uri Schneider: The, um, stuttering gains, the idea that there can be strengths and assets that emerge from a difficulty, and again, the sharpening, cultivation of secondary things like these skills. And then just the fact that what stuttering can bring, it brings intimacy into conversations. It brings a slowed pace.
Uri Schneider: I so enjoy speaking with you right now because when we finish this call, my world goes back to 120 miles an hour. But as I choose to engage with you, once I get past the shifting of lanes of this arbitrary speed by which my mind and life might be running, I find it so settling and so much easier to be present with you.
Uri Schneider: And so these are just, just thoughts to put out there for people that haven't reflected on this. I just wanted to put that out there. Now, coming back. . In contrast to that, John, those are things that have been there all along. Since you embarked on this remarkable journey of researching and putting together this book.
Uri Schneider: What's something new that's emerging or something that you've discovered in yourself or that's coming out for new, new Air since you embarked on this project?
John Hendrickson: I never had any stuttering friends. It was, it was always me. I was always on an island with it. I never looked for stuttering, friends. I never thought they even existed. Obviously, I knew there were other people in the world who stuttered. I knew that after my sessions in therapy, there would be. New kid coming in after me, but I never, never dawned on me to try to be friends with that kid.
John Hendrickson: And I didn't, I didn't even think of it as a possibility. And writing my article about Biden just completely opened the floodgates to making many, many beautiful friendships with people who stutter. And we may talk about, talk about, talk about stuttering, or we may not. I, I got a text, uh, a couple days ago from Marco o' Malia from American Institute.
John Hendrickson: For stuttering, and he was texting me about this, uh, 20th anniversary tour of Dead Cab for cutie in the postal service. And, and we had this whole conversation about music that had nothing to, it was stuttering, but Mark and I are both people who stutter. So those bonds, those real friendships that have
John Hendrickson: developed in my life just since November, 2019 are profound.
John Hendrickson: Awesome.
Uri Schneider: And in looking at the sum total of the book, it's not, it's not a short book, it's also not dense. It really flows. if you had to choose.
John Hendrickson: Yeah, it's, I just wanna say cuz that's a, please. Well, that's a thing. If I'm ever deciding to buy a book, I'm like, how long is this thing?
John Hendrickson: It's 240 pages of text and uh, you know, I was very careful. I, I wanted to make sure I wrote something under 300 pages, but two 40 pages, just famous,
Uri Schneider: curious. Yeah. Yeah. And everything is in the eye of the beholder because for someone, again, with borderline dyslexia. Yeah, sure. Um, anything that goes, if I've marked up a book past the first 10, 15 pages, it's, it's an accomplishment for me.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. So, um, it was in no way a swipe at the book, but more of a reflection for me to say, oh no, it's not. Yeah. No, it's not a it's not a, um, yeah, you get the idea. But what I do wanna say is, and I would say this with sincerity, there isn't a page that feels like filler.
Uri Schneider: It's not like the high school essays I wrote, each page evolves. And I was sharing with John, I don't wanna give away any of the secrets, but there were different pieces that left me on the edge of my seat. And I felt, I hope he's gonna resolve this or tie this up. And I just assure you that that's the nature of the book.
Uri Schneider: It just pulls you in and it's a ride. And as John said, it's a journey. Um, I wanna touch one or two more things and then we'll come to close in the book. You fall in love and you get married to Liz, and there's a line and it says, um,
Uri Schneider: when I look back at my life, I don't see it as before and after facing my stutter. I see it as before and after meeting Liz. She has allowed me to see the whole me and to stop running from it. What did you mean there?
John Hendrickson: Liz is not a person who stutters, but Liz has a different neurological disorder. Liz has dis
John Hendrickson: disonia, which grew over time in her body. It was initially something as mild as leg cramps, hand cramps, trouble holding a pen. It's a neuromuscular disorder, and as Liz kept getting older and got into college, it, it began taking over more and more. Her body. And it got to the point where Liz could barely walk.
John Hendrickson: And about a, a decade ago, sh she, she, she, she, she, she had brain surgery. We implanted two electrodes in her brain, connected to a wire coming down through her, connected to a battery in her chest. And when that whole system is properly working, her muscles are fluid and she doesn't have any issue. And the average person wouldn't have any idea that anything was wrong with her unless you saw the incisions.
John Hendrickson: Incision scar on the top of her head where they implanted these electrodes. And the first night that Liz and I met our first date,
John Hendrickson: Liz told me about that scar completely nonchalantly, completely effortlessly, and without shame, without weight. And it blew my mind. And I told her about being a person who stutters, which is a thing I had never, ever done on a date or in many situations at all.
John Hendrickson: Liz just immediately greeted me with that radical acceptance. and we just immediately had this bond where we understood each other even if we had completely different disorders. And about nine months after that mm-hmm. , I wrote my article about Joe Biden and whenever and everything that came after, I've just been on this journey of acceptance. That is, um, an ongoing journey still, but it really did begin with meeting her.
Uri Schneider: So beautiful. So happy for both of you. What's something that you would want people to. , you know, if someone was only gonna read five pages, someone had severe reading or attentional challenges like myself, let's say.
Uri Schneider: And, um, what's one, one thing in the book that you would really hope people don't miss that could be looked over? Is there something you'd really hope people pay attention to and, and take a moment to, to drink in? Well,
John Hendrickson: let me just also say that for people with any visual disability or any reading disability or anything at all, there will be an audio book and that comes after the same day.
John Hendrickson: It comes out January 17th. I am not the narrator of it, it's a professional actor, George Newburn, um, who has a great voice and I, I met with him and I talked through the mechanics of stuttering and just the layers of it. And I have total confidence in him. And I think the audiobook is just under eight hours, so not as long as other books.
John Hendrickson: There are some books that are in 20 hour audiobook.
Uri Schneider: Would've been very grateful if you would've given me advanced release on that one, but, oh, yeah. Um, that's good to hear. That was an alley for you to plug the audiobook as well.
John Hendrickson: All right, thanks. Um, but if you choose, if you don't have that time, or as you said, Barry, if you don't have the time or resources to read a whole book,
John Hendrickson: I hope that you would take away
John Hendrickson: that. , it's, it's a little cliche to say, but change is always possible. Change in yourself, change in others. Change in perceptions. Change in what you think your limitations are.
John Hendrickson: One of the
John Hendrickson: toughest things to grapple with is this idea that we hear all the time that say, well, people don't change past a certain age. People, they reach a certain age in adulthood and they just won't change. And I think there are parts of our personalities for which that is true. But I think there are larger parts of our lives and more important parts of our lives in which change is literally always possible.
John Hendrickson: And
John Hendrickson: four years ago, you and I are having this conversation. And early December, 2018, four years ago in your, in, I, I'm sorry. We're having this conversation early December, so 2022. So four years ago in early December, 2018,
John Hendrickson: I was about two weeks away from meeting my now wife. And I had never introduced myself as a person who's the person who's donors in my life. I had never come on a podcast. I, I never thought of that as even a possibility. I had never written anything for public consumption about stuttering. And just in that brief period of four years, I've turned all that upside down.
John Hendrickson: And so I think it's just so important to hold onto the possibility of change and change in a positive way
Uri Schneider: that is profound. So I wanna read one excerpt here that just punctuates that, and again, to me, the, the juxtaposition of your childhood letters, and it seems like your parents being organized scrapbookers or whatever would be the right description. It really was, was all a gift and it was all laying the seeds for you to have, uh, These resources to revisit, include in the book, but referencing that project in fourth grade where you said, you know, you wished maybe one day, who knows, you might be a writer, journalist, write a book.
Uri Schneider: You write here towards the end of the book, uh, coming back after you wrote the article on Joe Biden, come back to Your high school. And as Kevin interviewed me about my career, I felt myself watching the scene from above. I had been in the same classroom 15 years ago, sitting in one of those desks, terrified of having to speak.
Uri Schneider: There are many days I doubted that I'd ever be able to hold a job. Now I was here to offer students advice. And so just to punctuate the change is possible and, and how wow. You know, that's just absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning. Um, , maybe there's two more questions and then two more things to just bring out would be so hard to to leave without.
Uri Schneider: What would you say to your 12 year old self, knowing what you know now? So if you can go back in time, and I'm sure you've seen the Joe Biden video, which will include in the show notes where he was interviewed and ask this very question. But if you can go back and talk to John Junior High School, knowing what you know now, what would be your message to younger John?
Uri Schneider: I think at the age of
John Hendrickson: 12, I envisioned myself reaching some mythical day in the future when I would no longer stutter and I would tell myself that day's not gonna come, but it'll be. . I would also tell myself that this thing, this daily problem of yours will be your biggest motivator in life. And it's gonna make you work harder.
John Hendrickson: It's gonna make you put in longer hours, it's gonna make you cute. Too much of a perfectionist and certain aspects of your work. And it's, it's just going to give you grit. And even though there are many parts of the day that are difficult, it's, it's gonna
John Hendrickson: light a fire under you to try to accomplish some things as an adult.
Uri Schneider: Incredible. There is, I won't give away who this interview is with or who this conversation is with, but it's pure gold. Uh, so I do wanna read this last excerpt. Just pull it up here.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't a conversation. And I just wanna say, the people you interview range from celebrities, politicians, artists, uh, everyday heroes, everyday people. And I don't wanna drop names out of, uh, missing anyone, but the range of people you interview is absolutely incredible. And, um, there's a conversation you have towards the end of the book and you're sitting with someone and you say that you feel lucky and fortunate that you have Liz, that you have good friends and that you're able to work.
Uri Schneider: And this person says to you, you're not lucky. And for. , that makes it sound like it just landed on you. You created this with fortitude and bravery that I don't have, and I would not have made it through. I would not have managed this persevered through it. I think overcome is fair because it doesn't mean to beat it.
Uri Schneider: It means, and you say it means you can overcome the fear of stuttering. And so there's so much to be said about that. But I think it's beautifully brings us back to Cal Ripkin. It's that perseverance and it's the courage. I dunno if you wanna reflect on that, uh, passage, but the idea of not feeling like you survived and you were lucky and fortunate, but to have people reflect back and say, you earned this.
Uri Schneider: This is your destiny. This did just fall on you. To me, that was a very profound exchange.
John Hendrickson: That beautiful quote is a quote from my older brother, and it's one of my favorite parts in the entire book. And I think he is able to express something there that's just, um, incredible. It's overwhelming to hear him say that. And it's, it's, it's hard for me to take compliments. I think a lot of people who, people who stutter, have a hard time taking compliments and we are trying to direct the conversation elsewhere and direct attention elsewhere.
John Hendrickson: Um, but that meant a lot coming from him. And I'll, I'll, I'll cherish that moment with my brother forever.
Uri Schneider: For the sake of time, unless you want to go there, I would just say that the lesson. Of that conversation and uh, really that I took away from the whole book and we talked before we started recording, is just cuz something's uncomfortable, it might be important enough to still talk about it and to avoid important conversations is not the better choice.
Uri Schneider: It might be the more comfortable choice. And if that means you're a young person who stutters and you're scared to bring up a conversation with loved ones who are trying their best for you, and whether that's a teacher, a therapist, a parent, sibling, and whether that's a parent or a teacher, fumbling to do the best they can with the best intentions.
Uri Schneider: Don't miss the opportunity to, to find a way with love and sincerity and authenticity to be direct and matter of fact. And I wanna give a shout out to Joe Donaher, who also has a beautiful place in the book. And he, he was that person for you where he just said, it's square. He said, John, , yeah. You have a severe stutter.
Uri Schneider: That must be hard and not beating around the bush about it, but not being critical, not being judgmental, but, but not being around the bush. And you had spent quite a bit of time with everyone beating around the bush. And so the book, in my eyes is the conversation that, that we would all be better off having sooner than later.
Uri Schneider: And it's wonderful. It's a blessing for you and, and for everyone in this book that you've brought this, you know, conversation to the light of day. Because I think too many people walk around with these shadows and these vaults shut tight. And there's a chapter where you talk about that. So I wanna thank you for that and leave with this opportunity.
Uri Schneider: If you had a billboard in Times Square, John, and you could put one message up for the world to hear, and it doesn't have to be the perfect sound bite, but if you had one message, you could leave up there in Times Square on a billboard, what would that be?
John Hendrickson: Man, that's hard because it's gotta be pithy.
Uri Schneider: See, don't overthink it. It's kinda like the ice cream baseball stutter. You went with journey. Um, just go with what comes, I think I would
John Hendrickson: say
John Hendrickson: give up on perfection and that perfection is not the goal, you know? So I would say that, that the billboard would say give up on perfection. And if, if anyone asked me to explain it, I would just say that perfection is not the goal. Perfection is often not beautiful. It, it's, , it's not as beautiful as something that's unvarnished and authentic and real, and it takes a lot of work to actually move your mind away from that goal.
John Hendrickson: It's a lot like trying to move away from the fluency goal. Those things, you know, they're very analogous there. But if you can work to actually get past that idea, I, I think it opens up so many more possibilities in your life and it will yield more interesting experiences and conversations. And there are so many other more noble goals than perfection.
John Hendrickson: You know, it would be like if I. Came on this podcast and two minutes into it or 10 seconds into it, had my first block and then I was beating myself up. Well, okay, you already blew this one cuz you didn't even make it through one sentence without some form of dis fluency. Just, you gotta give up on that goal
Uri Schneider: since you brought that up.
Uri Schneider: This could be cut later or we can keep it. What was the internal voice here? Was this an easy, effortless conversation for you? Or the presence of stuttering gave you some self-talk of, uh, self-critique or heavy monitoring, or did it feel kind of at ease and spontaneous?
John Hendrickson: Certainly. certainly at ease and with each passing week, month of my life, ever since really confronting my stutter, it, it gets easier and easier and it, it exists every single day, but I just don't fight every single block the way I used to. And I really focus more on the content of what I'm saying as opposed to the number of
Uri Schneider: seconds of a block stuttering paradox.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. Profound. Profound. Well, thank you for this conversation, this opportunity. We might end up having a t. with that billboard quote, and we'll say, talk to John if you wanna know what it means. I love to say, you know, the saying, another lie that we're told is, practice makes perfect practice, doesn't make perfect practice, makes permanent.
Uri Schneider: Mm-hmm . And if you practice running away and you practice avoiding, that becomes pretty permanent, pretty fixed. But as John said, it's never too late to change. As long as you got another breath, as long as you got another day that you wake up, the opportunity is there to start practicing, leaning in and daring to say the things you wanna say and dream the dreams you wanna dream and, and hopefully this book, life On Delay will be something that opens those conversations and creates space for more people to dream and for more people who don't stutter.
Uri Schneider: To connect to the human experience of people who stutter. Because I think all of us have something that sometimes holds us back. From doing the things we really feel we have a calling to do and that we should all live with a little bit more courage like Jackie Robinson, a little bit more perseverance, uh, like Cal Ripkin and really learn from John.
Uri Schneider: So the book will be available on Amazon. I'm forever grateful for your advanced copy and getting to read it Life on delay. Let us know what you think and thank you so much, John.
John Hendrickson: Thanks, Uri. I appreciate a lot.