#14 Stuttering Research, Resources and more with Dr. Scott Yaruss

BIO

J. Scott Yaruss is a professor of Communicative Sciences and Disorders, a practicing speech-language pathologist with more than 25 years of clinical experience, and a board-certified specialist in fluency disorders. He joined the faculty of  MSU in 2017, with the overarching goal helping speech-language pathologists improve their ability to provide meaningful and lasting support for people who live with stuttering.

Yaruss has published more than 85 peer-reviewed articles, as well as more than 110 other articles, chapters, and books about stuttering. He has given hundreds of continuing education workshops, seminars, and other presentations at local, national, and international conferences. He has also served in various posts for the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association’s Special Interest Group for Fluency Disorders and on the Board of Directors of the National Stuttering Association.uttering self-help community for more 20 years.

Prior to coming to MSU, Yaruss was at the University of Pittsburgh and Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, where he led the Stuttering Center of Western Pennsylvania. He  holds a bachelor’s degree in linguistics and psychology from the University of California Berkeley, and a master’s and doctorate in speech-language pathology from Syracuse University. While at the University of Pittsburgh, he was recognized with the School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences Dean's Distinguished Teaching Award.

In 2011, he co-founded Stuttering Therapy Resources (https://www.StutteringTherapyResources.com), a specialty publishing company focused on providing practical materials for helping speech-language pathologists help those who stutter. Key publications include: School-Age Stuttering Therapy: A Practical Guide, Early Childhood Stuttering Therapy: A Practical Guide, Minimizing Bullying for Children Who Stutter, and the Overall Assessment of the Speaker's Experience of Stuttering (OASES), a comprehensive instrument used around the world to measure the adverse impact of stuttering on people's lives.

Yaruss's current research focuses on the experience of stuttering from the perspective of individuals who stutter. The goal is to learn more about the nature of the breakdown in communication, both at the level of speech production and in terms of the broader life impact experienced by those who stutter. Find out more at the website of the Spartan Stuttering Laboratory: https://StutteringLab.msu.edu.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

MORE QUOTES

“What we need to be prepared to do as clinicians, uh, is to help people learn to ride those waves. That's just the nature of this particular beast, rather than fighting them.” - Dr. Scott Yaruss

“The most important thing that we can do is connect with a person, let them know that we hear them and that we value them.” - Dr. Scott Yaruss

TRANSCRIPT

Uri Schneider: Good morning. Good morning everybody. It is a big, big treat this morning. It is always a treat to talk to anybody. I think I shared this in one of the posts. Everybody's voice matters and everybody has something to offer. Everybody has a lesson to teach and whether you're a professional or you're a parent or you're a child, a teen or an adult, you have something to offer the world.

And uh, some people are real characters and you have to listen really hard to learn the lessons that they have to offer. And other peoples are like, , they're just like fountains of generous wisdom and insight. And today we have the big privilege to have such a person. Um, Dr. Scott Yaris is, uh, is with us this morning and I'll do the quick bio just for those people that don't have a sense of the presence you're about to be in.

Um, Scott Yare, probably fair to say, um, someone who's contributing and contributes, uh, as much, if not more than many, many, many of the people researching. He's just really, really prolific. And that's not to suggest others aren't, but he's absolutely a leader in the field of research in stuttering. He is a champion, uh, both for people who stutter for parents, children, teens and adults.

He is a champion for our profess. He has given, given the awards of the greatest honors, both from our professional association, asha, as well as state organizations and other local organizations. He's taught in many universities. He's currently at Michigan State University and the Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders.

Um, and he runs the Spartan, uh, stuttering Lab. Is that the right name? Yes. Yep. And every time I meet anyone that's ever, uh, worked with us or ever been to a presentation, they know, um, the research, the, uh, evaluations, the assessments and the treatment of stuttering has really, uh, had a, had a, had a big facelift over the past several.

and Scott Yaris, along with Bob Quel, and so many others have, uh, have contributed a ton. And so the Oasis is one of the, is our favorite tool when we are thinking about getting more insight and understanding about the full experience of people who stutter. So that is a contribution that Scott has his hands all over.

Um, he's written several books. Uh, in addition to the research, he's also provided clinical books and resources through the stuttering therapy resources.com. And that's together with Nina Reardon Reeves, another good friend. Shout out to Nina. Hopefully we'll do another one of these with Nina. But, uh, if you're looking for clinical resources, if you're looking for understanding how to be a better speech language pathologist, if you're a student or a clinician, this is the place to go.

Stuttering therapy resource. Dot com and it's a big privilege to, uh, share another side of Scott in between his giving lectures in South America, Europe, north America, and around to just carve out a few minutes together. So thanks for joining us, Scott. Yeah,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: thanks for having me. It's nice to chat.

Uri Schneider: You know, we have a lot of things in common and at the same time, we have nothing in common.

I think that's a good intro for any two people. Um, what we have in common is you, you've led the way, you've been a mentor for me in gracefully losing my hair, . Um, you've been a mentor for me in dealing with, um, my inbox, zero fascination ever since I picked you up at LaGuardia Airport probably about 10 years ago as a while ago.

Yeah. You've been a, a mentor and a teacher and a friend to me and to so many people on the personal side and in obviously the ways that you're so different is in the ways you contribute and show up consistently, endlessly. And it almost seems like, um, I just have to ask for those of us that admire you.

How do you do it? How do you what? What gives you, what's your why? What keeps you going? What drives you to be so involved when there are many places where you could take a bit of a, you know, step back a little bit, but you keep kind of being at the forefront of advocacy and research and clinical excellence.

What's your why? What got you into this? What keeps you. ,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: you know, that's a that's a really good question. And, and I'll be honest, sometimes I don't, I don't know. I mean, I do what I do cuz it's what I do and I love what I do and I'm really lucky to get to do it. And I, I think about that often. I mean, daily that I, I kind of have the best job in the world.

Uh, I get to, at the university, think about questions that I don't know the answer to, and then somebody pays me to go try to figure out the answers. Uh, in my clinical work, I get to know people, uh, you know, and I get to, to try to understand a little bit about their experience and, and share that with them.

Uh, when training speech language pathologists, I get to hear about all the complexities of our field. Uh, and I get to sit at, at the middle of a lot of that stuff. So, um, I have on occasion said to myself, uh, maybe more, more lately, it probably don't need to be working quite this hard, but it, it's just what I do and it rarely feels like a slog.

Of course there's stuff that nobody loves about every job, but even that, Uh, I don't mind it. I, I like, I like getting to do what I, what I

Uri Schneider: get to do. Amazing. So I gave you an intro. If you had to give your own intro, um, what are some of your most proud achievements and things you're involved in today that you would like to share with the world?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Oh, okay. That's gonna be a long list cause I've got so many fun things going on right now. Go for it. Um, so let's see, with Stuttering therapy resources, uh, just as a bit of background, this is a little company that Nina and I started, I think in about 2012. Uh, we knew we wanted to write more books and we wanted to have the, um, Uh, the creative control.

When you publish with a publisher, they make decisions. When you make yourself your own publisher, then you get to make decisions. Uh, and that's just been great fun because when we have a project that we wanna do, uh, we just, we do it. So right now we're working on a new set of activity guides. Uh, you know, our books are designed to help people learn how to think about stuttering.

Uh, we, we talk about marketing them for the thinking clinician for, you know, for somebody who really wants to understand what they're doing. There are lots of different ways to approach stuttering and, and the training of stuttering. There's some people who, who wanna simplify it more, but, but, We have a lot of faith in clinicians and we want them to understand what they're doing and why they're doing cuz that empowers them.

Uh, but people are always asking about activities. And so we've decided, hey, let's put together, we've got binders and binders of activities that we use in therapy. So it's fun. We're putting, we call 'em go-to guides. Uh, and the first of those may be out this year. Uh, our, our, our annual, um, people who, uh, deadline is always the ASHA conference this year.

No ASHA conference, but we're trying to keep the same deadline. Uh, so later on this year, we're hoping to have these go-to guides out on the Oasis. I'm having a blast. We're working on the early childhood version now. So we've got the version for ages three to six, both a child form, a parent form, and then oasis for families.

Uh, and that's being piloted right now. So that's a ton of fun. Uh, and then at work, uh, I'm fortunate cuz I've just started a major five year grant funded by the N I h to look at one of my, um, My pet peeve topics, one of the most important topics to me has always been the variability of stuttering. And I started writing about variability with a paper published in 1997, and I haven't really stopped since then.

Trying to understand more about why people's experience in one situation, like a clinic or a lab, will be so different from their experience in another situation. People tell us, well, what you're seeing here today in the lab, this is not me yet, we still use those data as if they mean something. And so what I'm hoping to do with this five year study is get a better understanding of variability and, um, how can we do a better job as clinicians and as scientists in understanding and assessing St.

and then I spent the last two days on all day conference calls, learning about a new, uh, pharmacology trial that will be starting and stuttering. So that's exciting too. So yeah, lots of great stuff. I've missed several things too. I start teaching next week. I love teaching remote teaching these days. But, uh, yeah, lots of fun things.

Incredible.

Uri Schneider: Okay, so talk to us about the pharmacology study. Mm-hmm. , I have some hand in that. Thanks to our good friend, Dr. Jerry McGuire, . I remember the conference call, the Zoom call. Uh, you were there, Jerry per, um, Shelly, Joe Kraft, some of the, the best in the brightest. And I looked at that zoom screen and I didn't share it publicly cuz it wasn't public matter.

But there were a lot of other great people on that call. And I took a shot and I sent it to my dad and I, I said, you see all these people, I just love being the dumbest guy in the room. , somehow I got a seat at the table, but, uh, hopefully I look forward to contributing to this question, the variability.

within one person in different situations, right? So, parents, teachers, loved ones. Therapists often struggle with this. It's very, uh, confounding. It's very enigmatic. Why is it that the child says he stutters, he doesn't stutter over here, or he doesn't stutter when he sings, or he doesn't stutter when he is playing football.

And the variability of experiences in different situations is certainly enigmatic. So that's a huge mystery that you're certainly gonna contribute to. But then there's also the variability of the stuttering experience person to person. I'm always fascinated how people think it's a, it's like a catch all phrase.

Um, I was wondering if you could shed a little light on your thoughts in terms of the variability of how stuttering presents for different people. And, uh, while it's a helpful umbrella term with I fluency disorder, The variability and the shades of difference within those who carry this diagnosis or this shared experience we call stuttering or stammering.

And for those that don't know, stammering is no different. It's just the word that they use in the UK and in Australia and other parts of the world. But, uh, or in, in the uk in other parts of the world. But, uh, it's the same thing, stuttering and stammering, which everyone's more of a stigma. People avoid saying it, but uh, clinically they're the same stuttering and stammering.

So what are your insights about helping people understand the nature of the complexion of this this. Issue of stuttering and how it presents so differently for different people. That's still the same thing. Yeah,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: absolutely. So, so there's two things I, I wanna say first, let me, if I could, just a few more words on that variability within, and then we'll talk about the variability between, you know, that variability within is part of what makes it so hard for people to come to terms with stuttering, because sometimes they have difficulty doing something and so they really wanna overcome that.

And then sometimes they, they appear to have overcome that. You know, why, why could I say it there? But I can't say it there. And, uh, one of my former doctoral students, Dr. Now, Dr. Seth and I just got a paper accepted. Uh, we got the final acceptance notice just this week, uh, on a paper looking at how frustrating variability.

For people who stutter and comparing that to how frustrating other things are about stuttering. And it turns out that the most frustrating thing about stuttering for people who stutter in this study was the stutter itself. The fact that they get stuck, the, the, they don't like that, understandably. Okay.

But the second most frustrating thing, out of all the aspects of stuttering that might affect people was the variability. That was the one that was mentioned as the second most, most difficult aspect of the condition, because you can't count on it. and it, it makes it hard to come to terms with who you are when sometimes that's not who you are.

Uh, and that's, that tells us a lot about what we need to be prepared to do as clinicians, uh, is to help people learn to ride those waves. That's just the nature of this particular beast, rather than fighting them. But then again, we'll take that next level. Then the variability between people. Different people experience that variability in different ways, so some people will find that they can easily talk in front of a group, and it's the one-to-one stuff that gets them.

And for others, it's exactly the opposite. And what that means to me is that. We have to be very careful as clinicians, as researchers, not to oversimplify the experience of stuttering for people. Uh, I understand that, that we need to make stuttering, um, manageable and packageable for people to understand.

I, I get that, but when we say, oh yeah, I always start my therapy with this, or Everybody needs to do this, or If you just do this, you'll be fine. It worked for me. Those kinds of statements really cause me concern when I see them, even from some experts in our field, uh, even from some people who are, are, you know, very visible because maybe that worked for you great, but that doesn't mean it's gonna work for someone else.

And I think unless we remember that each individual is gonna have their own journey and their own experiences and their own unique phenotype. , if you will, of their experience of stuttering. I think we run the risk of denying people's individuality, and I see it happen far too much with, you know, we have this little catchphrase where they, canned approaches can't apply to everyone.

And the reason that I, I bristle so much about, you know, oh, just do this, it'll be fine. It'll be easy. You can ha it just makes me worry because what about that person for whom it's not that easy? And they wonder, well, what's wrong with me? I hear he did it. Why can't I do it? Yeah.

Uri Schneider: So we had a, we had a fortune of hosting a meetup this weekend on Sunday with Braden Harrington.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Saw. And, uh, we made it for kids only teens who stutter only. Mm-hmm. . And there were some wonderful events. They were so gracious. The family and Braden, I mean, the kid was on practically every media outlet. He stepped up and joined a national stuttering, uh, association meeting on Friday. He joined the friends who stutter another wonderful organization on Saturday, and he joined us on Sunday and didn't show any sign of fatigue.

Kid was a, was an Energizer bunny and his father is a principal. I didn't know that. A principal and his mom is just an amazing intuitive, very strong tuned in parents and let's just say, uh, it's not everything that you see on tv. In other words, the ride is never linear. So there are a lot of ups and downs.

Braden has his moments and his parents don't always know what to do. And I think for parents and people who stutter, you know, I think that just the simple fact that a fantasy that someone else has arrived. Mm-hmm. is actually a fantasy. Right. We're all, all of us has people. Are on a ride, on a journey called life.

And the chapters are not finished until we leave this world. And until then there are more chapters to be written. So whether it's more climbs or some more dips, but that's the ups and downs. So for people who stutter, I think just to recognize nobody arrives at a destination, most people, it's a journey that continues and you pick up tools of resilience along the way, which is a side plug for the ISAD Conference, international Stuttering Awareness down October 22nd.

Uh, ISAD, the theme this year is resilience and bouncing back. But I wanted to just share that what Braden said was so amazing cuz Cody Packer was there. And I told the teens what you're talking about, Scott, so many people out there heard that such and such program is the right program, such and such. And therapist is, is really the, the best person, the only person to go to, and they don't have success.

And I told these teenagers, I said, if you've had an experience that wasn't. as helpful as you'd hoped or expectations were dashed, just know it wasn't your fault. Mm-hmm. , just know that that wasn't the right fit for you because otherwise you carry that. Too many people carry that with them, A failed experience.

And then it's either a bad vibe towards that entire profession. Mm-hmm. , or even worse than that is, it's a bad feeling that I'm not fixable, I'm not good enough. I couldn't hack it. The program obviously is perfect, and if only I was helpable, well, I guess this really proves it. So if you're a person who stutters a parent, teacher, child therapist, whatever, uh, I think recognizing that, no, I, I like to say Scott, no therapy works.

Mm-hmm. , you know, therapy is an experience applied to a person's life. Mm-hmm. , and if it's the right fit, it's healthy and helpful. And there are certainly some things that are wrong, but there's a range of things that can be helpful for different people in different ways. And, uh, I think that's a really important point that you said, that there's no one size fits all.

Um, so what do you think? I find that the Oasis is a helpful tool for me, and as we do this research together, kind of figuring out what are the profiles, what are the features of different people, whether they are young children, teens, adults, what are the features that help us figure out, well, based on that, I think I'm gonna pull on this.

So based on that, I know I'm not gonna go there. Mm-hmm. , what would you, can you shed some light on how clinicians, parents, people themselves, can determine the rightness of fit? What are some of those important features, um, related to fluency and also beyond fluency, like the whole person? What are some of those features that are important to you in finding the right tool

Dr. Scott Yaruss: to lean on?

Yeah. You know, it's a really good question because it, it, it emphasizes that individuality. If we, you know, every, I, I don't know what I'm gonna do with a client until I get to know them. I, I, I don't have any clue at all, uh, about where I'll start. I'm actually,

Uri Schneider: there are. I'm nervous every time they walk in.

And the more, the more the reputation precedes you, I tell parents, the more pressure there is. Yeah, sure. Because now you're expecting that this is gonna be a home run. I step into every meeting, as I've heard from my father at this point, doing this for 50 years. He's doing it and he says there's a great amount of humility and anxiety.

Mm-hmm. when you meet that person for the first time. Because you don't know the person. Right. So you don't yet know exactly where you're going. For a starting clinician needs to have a plan. We learn how to do lesson plans and that's why training is so important. And people need to learn structured programs and really go in a linear way.

But as you get your way right, you have to find a way to pick out the right thing at the right time for the right person. So I'm with you on that. What are, what are your guideposts

Dr. Scott Yaruss: for? I, I, I always tease, you probably heard me say this, that I can't get out of bed in the morning unless I have a boxing line diagram.

I need some type of framework, right? To help. The framework isn't a recipe, it isn't step by step, but it at least guides my thinking. And so what I typically do with someone, what at the beginning when I'm getting to know them, is, uh, you mentioned the Oasis. Uh, one of the reasons that I, you know, worked on developing that is because I needed something to help me organize my thinking.

The Oasis is based on the World Health Organization's framework, the I C F, international Classification of Functioning Disability and Health. And I use that as a way of organizing the components of stuttering that might be relevant for a particular individual. I never know.

Uri Schneider: I, I've seen that slide so many times.

I agree. We're nightmares about that slide where you've got it all going, but yeah, keep going. It's bringing up,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: we haven't. We have a new one too. A new, we updated the diagram here at the end of December of 2019. Uh, Seth and I put out, uh, a new diagram which adds to our thinking, the responses of hundreds of people who stutter, uh, to realign some of how we see that.

But yeah, it gives me a way of organizing cuz I know that there's some of what I'm gonna do to consider, at least, I don't know what I'm gonna do in therapy yet, but there's some I'm gonna consider that's related to that sensation of being stuck. There's some I'm gonna consider that's related to how the speaker is coping with that.

There's some, I'm gonna consider that's how the environment of that speaker is coping with that. And there's some that I'm gonna consider that's related to how the speaker is affected in their daily lives. And by organizing it in this way, first of all, it simplifies it for me, but it simplifies it not just in a do this, do that kind of way.

It simplifies it in. At least I have some common ground to talk about. With the client. So I, I teach my adult, my adolescent clients dad, even the school-aged kids. We talk about the different aspects of their stuttering, how they interact together and how the overall experience is for them. I, I never ask somebody unless we're really working just on this, so tell me how your speech is.

There are periods of time when we are working specifically on speech, perhaps for some people, but I I otherwise, how's your life? How's your communication? Are you saying what you wanna say and try to keep that big picture perspective all the way through.

Uri Schneider: I just wanna give a shout out for anyone that joined us.

First of all, a lot of our good friends are here. I see, uh, Russ Hicks. I see Shelly Joe, I see Bob. Uh, please drop in, drop a comment, drop a question. I'll try to get to those. I see Carmen and Greg and there's Adam gr are great people. So I'll try to get to the comments and questions. But it's a big treat to have, uh, these few minutes with Scott.

and I'll try to make sure we cover topics that you won't hear other places. For people that do wanna get their fill of Scott and, and you never really get your fill , that would be my dad. But you never really get filled or, you know, Scott has an amazing style and amazing way of pr uh, of giving a lot of practical evidence-based, uh, wisdom that's very actionable and very digestible.

So if people want to get more of you that we won't cover, where can they go? Scott, the

Dr. Scott Yaruss: easiest place? It's, oh, it's for an overview and it's a little markety. I apologize, but just my

Uri Schneider: website. Oh, good. Listen, we're all helping each other in, people need to reach good information. Where can they go?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Uh, my last name yaris.com, has links to all the stuff, courses on Med Bridge courses on northern courses with Asha Stuttering therapy resources, of course.

Uh, and then the stuff that we do at the university, it's the stuttering lab.ms u.edu. Awesome. The, the, the clinical work is mostly@stutteringtherapyresources.com, though the work that I do with Nina Reeves, uh, that's, that's where the books and the blogs and the handouts and all of that stuff

Uri Schneider: are amazing.

And, uh, as much as we do, we don't have like, major teams behind us. So if you're watching this and you got any of those links and you want to drop 'em in the comments, or Nina, if you're there and can drop in the comments, that's great. I dropped in, uh, an article that Todd off the press just came out yesterday from Knowable Magazine about neuroscience and stuttering, and many of our friends and Dana Drainer, Dennis Drainer and Gerald McGuire and Scott are quoted in that piece.

It's, it's quite a nice piece and we'll try to touch on that a little bit. Um, so let's, let's talk about, yeah, the, I think you hit on something in a way that most of us know about, but the idea of there's a stuttering experience on the surface and there's a stuttering experience beneath the surface and touching that.

And I just wanna highlight that, uh, the Oasis really does that, I think for the longest time. , we know the research tells us and we just know it. And if you're a person who stutters, you know it, that there's the physical experience that people see and people hear. And then there's a very real experience of, of living and carrying and wondering and anticipating and creating habits and personas and different types of identities that you step into to kind of manage and deal with communication in your life.

And that's as much of a part of stuttering as teaching people something physical. You know, speech therapists for the longest time, wouldn't you say Scott? The biggest mistake or old school for some is that they focused only on the lips, right? And it really stopped there with fluency strategies, whatever they might be.

The important thing today, if you're listening and you're not aware if you're a consumer or if you're a therapist, is to make sure you're doing, you know, work that deals with the whole person. For many people, it's scary. The word counseling, uh, mindfulness, um, , any of these words that are kind of trendy now?

Scott, can you give a quick, you know, rationale and also an approach or a way to touch that for people that get scared of that? Uh, touching the whole person, touching the counseling, the emotions, the thoughts, things that most often are not thought of as speech therapy. Scope of practice, if you're a clinician and for many families, they feel like, I don't think you need a speech therapist.

I think you need someone to help 'em with confidence. Well, yeah. Well, if it's related to stuttering, maybe a speech therapist that, that's us stuttering Yeah. Would be the best address because a therapist's, psychologist, mental health professional would be the right person for someone that has anxiety or has depression.

And there's a absolute need to know when you need to refer to a, a person who's a mental health professional. But what's, can you touch on this idea of people, what they need to know about a speech therapist? If you're a speech therapist or if you're looking for a speech therapist? A good speech therapist who wants to help kids who stutter, what do they need to have in their, you know, toolbox or their range of ability?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: You bet. What does it take to be a good stuttering? Therapist is just a great question because stuttering has been for our field, unfortunately, scary clinicians haven't felt confident about it. They haven't felt as well trained as they'd like to be, is one of the reasons I tra I used to travel nobody, I don't travel right now, but give a lot of talks.

I've given more than 600 workshops all

Uri Schneider: around world. I'm sorry, I think I lost you there. How many workshops?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Oh, over 600. Um, 600 workshops. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to help clinicians feel more confident in their skills

Uri Schneider: because that's why I don't like to fly with Scott because he gets the upgrades. He's got higher status

Dr. Scott Yaruss: cause of all those flights.

I don't need more. I lost my status . Oh, come on, didn't they? We'll talk about that later. That's another

Uri Schneider: time status in 2021. But the flip side of that is not being home. So I always tell my freaking fire friends, you know, I don't hope to reach that status because it means I'm traveling too much from home.

So there's a. cost, benefits, everything. It's not all the rage, but everything. That's

Dr. Scott Yaruss: a lot. So I've been very fortunate to get to do that cuz it's, it's two-way learning. I get to hear what clinicians are, are thinking and feeling about stuttering. Uh, and at the same time, I get to try to help them feel better about their skills because I, I firmly believe that any clinician can be an outstanding clinician to help a person who stutters because what we know from the research literature is that the technique itself is not really where the change comes from.

The most certainly technique matters. You can do stuff that isn't ideal for someone. So we need to know what we're doing. , but the most important thing that we can do is connect with a person and, and let them know that we hear them and that we value them. And anyone can learn the skills to do that, even if they're not natively a good listener.

You know, some people just aren't born that way. Even so, you can learn how to listen to someone, how to reflect to them, how to identify with their experiences, even if they're not your own experiences. Uh, Nina has this phrase, and I won't get it right, but it's something about just because you see the word stutter.

in the diagnosis doesn't mean you should forget all of the things that you already know. Mm-hmm. , you know, as clinicians, we already bring a ton of great things to the table, but then we see, oh, he stutters, stuttering's. Not my, not my strong suit. I see that on Facebook every day. Oh, stuttering's not my thing.

And, but getting to know kids, that's your thing. Engaging with people, that's your thing. Listening and valuing people, that's your thing. Um, reflecting back that, that people are important, that's your thing. And so all of these building blocks are really the most important aspects of therapy. I would much rather have a great clinician who can learn the facts they need to learn about stuttering than somebody who knows everything there is to know about stuttering, but doesn't know how to show empathy, for example.

Uh, so I, I always tell my students, I, I'll tell them this next week, facts are easy. Learn them. We're not gonna spend a lot of time learning the facts because it's relating to people. That's where we wanna spend our

Uri Schneider: time and our team. I often highlight this idea. , and sometimes with parents and kids too.

The line of communication can happen on two channels. So you can have an informational transaction or you can have an emotional, you know, connection. And so sometimes with kids will ask, you know, something that's very informational, you know, why, why, why is that? Why, why and why? Words get stuck. Mm-hmm. for the parent.

That is a, that can be a very startling and terrifying, jarring experience. Yeah. Um, and it could be that for the kid, what I'll sometimes do, and I recommend for parents with kids who stutter, if it's a young child, and, and believe me, I'm, I'm all about the emotional experience of young people. But at times there's a disconnect where one side can have more emotional reactivity and experience.

Where in the other one it's in more informational. So sometimes watching videos of preschool, kids who stutter, parents have a certain set of emotions that are connected. You watch the kid and they're smiling and just. Going right through it, which is so interesting cuz the parents are thinking and sometimes projecting, um, what the kid is going through.

And then on the flip side, sometimes and often a little older, I think you'd agree, you know, very, it's more common that the young person has a lot of feelings and, and the mom or the dad or the teacher or even the therapist might say, come on, just do your strategy. It's just an informational, technical, mechanical thing, right?

So I think the importance of just recognizing these two channels and when, when the need is presented, whether it's through behavior or whether it's through a comment, or whether it's through a tear. If the need is coming through an emotional, uh, wave, you've gotta respond with an emotion and not with information.

And when you have a mismatch, it doesn't go. So for clinicians, parents, I think that's a really good one. We talk about that on our team. Um, but I want to challenge you and, and it's with humility and I, and I want to encourage everyone here to challenge your therapist and your professors and ask them, , would you really say that anyone could be a good clinician, a good stuttering therapist, or would you say there are some features, there are some qualities that can't be taught, and I'm thinking of the NSA conference conversation we had in Baltimore, uh, coming out of the research of, uh, the outcomes on training psychologists.

I believe it was some mm-hmm. data from N nih, or I forgot, I'm forgetting all the who to reference there, but you know what I'm talking about. There are certain qualities that you might expect and, and be surprised to see that that clinical, uh, effect, impact doesn't go, it doesn't change just with more, more webinars and more seminars and more CEUs.

It doesn't change necessarily with more years of experience. What are some of those features? Because I think thinking about the consumer, thinking about the parent, thinking about the person who stutters, you know, besides looking for someone who's credentialed, looking for someone who's licensed in your.

those, those are like starting points, asking them how many people who stutter of this age have you worked with in the past year or two? Can you offer some guideposts for, for the consumer population of what they should look for and what would be some red flags? Even if they say they've gone to 15 of Scotty's 600 workshops, they still might not be worth seeing.

Um, not because Scott's not great, but because there's something missing. What are, what are those intangibles?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: This is really where the relationship is formed, right. With the clinician. It's not the technical skill. Um, yeah. Some of the things that we have to learn to be good therapists are our technical.

Sure. But it is that ab, pardon me? It is that ability, sorry. It is that ability to connect with people. That's, that's the intangible. And I do encourage. Parents. I encourage kids to get to meet different therapists because they will click with some and they will not click with others. And this is not to say that you can't benefit from someone that you don't really click with, because sometimes those lessons come from figuring out how those gears mesh and trying to make sense of it.

Um, but it does help if you get along right, if you, if you find that spark with somebody that's intangible, that's harder to define. Uh, you may have been referring, I think, to the work of Bruce Wampold looking at how Yep. Um, you know, it's not so much the clinician's skill, you know, so this person is technically proficient and that doesn't necessarily make for a good therapeutic

Uri Schneider: interaction years, it experience scores on.

Standardized tests. That's right. Gre.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, it's more can they relate to human beings. So I guess it's true there are some people out there who just aren't that good at that. And I wouldn't say that they can become good stuttering therapists, but if they can relate to people, even if they don't have a lot of specific knowledge about stuttering to start, I, I get calls like you do from people all over the country who want therapy.

I'm licensed in a bunch of states, but my private practice is not something that I can put a lot of time into. So more often than not what I'm trying to do,

Uri Schneider: that's why I let you do what you do. And we try to build the private practice side. Perfect.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Right. We can each, have

Uri Schneider: ours and try to participate with support and collaborate in every way possible.

And I really believe everybody has a role to play. Absolutely. As do the organizations that do the self-help and each one excels in what they do. And I think we're all gonna. contribute to a better world when we find what we're really good at and just go all in. Mm-hmm. . And that's a message for all of us.

Yeah. There's

Dr. Scott Yaruss: enough people who stutter in the world to go around, right. it's, well, I would

Uri Schneider: say that's, that's the way therapists talk. And I always think, you know, there are enough people that need help and aren't getting it. That that's the truth. We need to provide more wisdom and value and support, and that's why I'll make a quick shameless plug.

Creating free opportunities so there's so much free content out there. Um, on our website, schneider speech.com, if you go to the blog page, we've created collections of short films, of stuttering, films from around the internet, not just our own. Um, we've also put up for free our documentaries in our self-help course and our group therapy and these free meetups once a month on September 13th, we'll have another one.

And these conversations making, making people like Scott Yaris and whatever we have to share accessible for free to more people. , there are so many people, uh, and I've come to this Scott, in the past two years, you probably came to much quicker looking at the Facebook conversations, and I won't name which groups.

But, um, some groups, there's, there's a real feeling of frustration towards the profession. There's a feeling of frustration, of a lack of, of quality care in the schools. Obviously, schools are mandated and have to have speech language pathologists. Um, but very often there aren't enough people that feel comfortable helping kids who stutter and helping people who stutter.

And many people find themselves not within reach. Now, if you're looking for a therapist, you can go to certain places like the Stuttering Foundation of America as a great list. The NSA can be a resource. The board, uh, specialty recognition, I fluency is another great resource to find good, competent people.

But in the end of the day, there aren't enough helpers. What, what do you think, Scott, for innovative creative ways, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, to make sure that. , every child who stutters is within reach of a good therapist, a good clinician. A lot of people talk about, we've gotta change the requirements in grad school.

We've gotta get fluency back on the front burner. Not every speech therapy program is, is giving more than a half a semester course. Many clinicians have never seen a kid who stutters. Do you have any outta the box ideas or really big game changing ideas? How we're gonna, you know, provide enough professional support to meet the needs of the people?

Mm-hmm. ?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Yeah. The, there are a couple of ways. It's, it's an issue that we all struggle with. First of all. Um, What I wanted to say about, you know, when I get these calls is what I spend a lot of my time doing is trying to reach out to a clinician who's local, to the person that has contacted me so that I can work with that clinician to help build up their confidence and skill.

And ultimately we may need to do more, uh, of this consultative type of approach to reach out to people, find speech language pathologists who maybe don't feel confident in their skills for helping those who stutter, but who are willing to learn. And I've worked with. Countless clinicians out in the field who just need a little guidance, just need a little reassurance sometimes.

Sometimes what they're doing is great. They just don't know that it's okay to do what they've done. One of my favorite things to do is to affirm a clinician who's been, do you know, they figured out on their own, th this is what I need to do. But they don't, they didn't have anybody to tell 'em it was okay to do that

And so I can say, and that's exactly how I would've approached that. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing, but it's how I would've approached it. Uh, so I do a lot of that. But when we talk about the training challenges, oh indeed, this is an issue that we're going to have to deal with eventually, and the sooner we deal with it, the, the better it'll be for everyone.

But our field has grown in its scope of practice so dramatically. You know, when we started out in the fifties, we had four areas to deal with. We had speech sounds, we had voice, we had language, and we had fluency. and now we've got easily 40 areas to deal with, but we've still got the same five or six semester master's degree program to do it in here in the us.

Other countries have other requirements, but you know, it's, it's really difficult to fit it all in. And so on the one hand, as a person who was a master's program director and you know, works at a university, uh, it's, it's very hard to make it all fit. Um, and so I understand those pressures. On the other hand, I want my, my area to get more emphasis, but everybody wants their area to get more emphasis.

So I don't have any magic answer for this except for that. I would love to see a curriculum someday, and we've tried different ways of achieving this. Not successfully, but we're trying to find a way to make a curriculum that's focused on developing. A, a therapist. And I know some people in our field don't like the word therapist.

I happen to like it. I happen to use it a lot. But somebody who can relate to other human beings. Again, facts are easy, will plug in the facts about stuttering, about dysphagia as about language, about whatever it is. But let's first focus on creating a, a human being who can relate to other human beings.

Cuz that's really the most important part. Um, I draw upon facts and knowledge when I'm doing my therapy, but more than anything I draw upon just getting to know one another and providing the emotional support that the person needs in that moment. And

Uri Schneider: we can, and that's why I think, I think two thoughts on that.

I'll throw a really creative idea out there that I haven't shared with you. I shared it with, uh, a few other forums of conversations and conference calls. I think that the ideal clinician has to have a good head and a good heart. You know, and in grad school you generally don't work on hearts. You come in with a good heart, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to take someone who's more facts and figures oriented might have the great future in, in research.

Um, and they might not be cut out for, for being a therapist. They might not be the people, people, they might not be the problem solvers. Um, they, and I think another ingredient, in my opinion, if you think of the greats in, in therapy, uh, our friends who are really the leaders and, and those who paved the path before us, the generally people who went through their own journey, whether it was with stuttering, there are fantastic therapists.

In fact, the field was started by people who stutter. Uh, many of our colleagues and friends are people who stutter, who've then dedicated their professional life to this issue. But, uh, I think aside from that, if you've done good personal work, I think I would just suggest that's a great compli. To being able to meet someone where they're at in an honest way, in a real way, in a humble way, and in a helpful way that you've gone down some, some road of personal growth or overcoming challenge and adversity.

That's the universal experience the stuttering presents. So if you wanna be a good therapist, you gotta know something about adversity and, and, and bouncing back. Um, that's a thought. In terms of the clinicians, I'm gonna throw out this idea and anyone listening, feel free to contact me on this if you have feedback, if it's crazy or if it's a great idea.

I thought, and I spoke about this on a walk, on a walk with, I'm blanking who, but I'll tell you in a second. The thought is, what if we could identify those students around the country? There's one or two in each graduate school program who show an interest in fluency. And instead of finding them later when they show up for CEU workshops and they have to pay their way into workshops and CEUs to become specialists, and instead of trying to get everybody to be great.

At helping kids who stutter. What if each program could identify, and we could create almost like a Fulbright scholarship or a fellowship of identifying around the country, people who show interest and potential to be great and cultivate them early on with a digital network of people like yourself. We can contribute to cultivate these students to become great and to build within that a community that would support and, and nurture that professional experience.

And then what we could do is we could cross pollinate, you know, real more people who know what they're doing across the country. I don't know who's into it, but I was wondering just besides the money and besides these support, it would require, what do you think of an idea like

Dr. Scott Yaruss: that? A, anything that we can do to help connect people who have similar goals is a, is a good thing.

There's no doubt about that. Um, we are fortunate at the doctoral. That is beginning to happen more. Well, we went through a period of time where there weren't that many PhD students in our field. Uh, and that is, that is improving quite a bit. Um, and there was an effort made to make that happen. There was funding put behind it to get doctoral students to conferences.

Uh, na Ratner put together a, a, a grant for students to be able to attend the I FFA conference that was in Japan, uh, I A I C A I SSA conference. Um, so yes, uh, there's no reason at all that we couldn't also emphasize that at the master's level. Uh, the more, uh, networks that we have, the more support we can provide one another because just as people who stutter, benefit from support of people who clinic also need it, and, uh, especially when you're working in an area that is not always well understood.

And again, I don't wanna, s i I don't like to say that stuttering is, is different as a, as a part of the field or worse off than other parts. Cuz I know people in voice who have the same concerns and I know even people in language who have the same concerns. But if we can do a better job of networking at any level, uh, that can only help.

That can only help. We get ideas from one another. We get strength from one another. Um, we get the confidence that we need to maybe make some noise. Uh, you know, it's hard to make noise as an individual, but when, when a small group or a larger group is making noise, it, it gets heard more. So, uh, yeah,

Uri Schneider: absolutely.

Great, great. So we'll transition. If you have more comments or questions, drop them in. There's a bunch of people here, a lot of our friends, colleagues that we know, and some new people drop 'em in and we'll try to hit some questions and I'll try to zero in on those in the next few minutes, but it's a real treat.

I'm just thanking Scott for taking this time. Um, you can also check out again Scott, um, so yaris.com, y a r u s s.com. And that's a good way to kind of connect to all the things that Scott's involved in in terms of research, clinical resources, workshops, et cetera. Uh, stuttering therapy resources.com is another fantastic address, and you can also find, uh, Scott and Nina, uh, on social media, mostly under the handle, uh, stuttering therapy resources, but others as well.

And if you wanna find out more about what we're doing and, uh, more events like this and meetups and this online course that we put together for therapists to learn more about how to help kids a framework. Practical ways to go forward in a holistic way that could be a stepping stone to working privately with a local therapist, or it could be something that restores your faith, that there's hope and there's a way forward.

You can check that out@schneiderspeech.com. So our friend, Avram Stein met, sent us a question last night, and I, I wanted to honor those who took the early chance to put in their questions. So he asked thoughts on voluntary stuttering as a way to desensitize how does it work, um, what's the deal?

Understanding that everyone's different, but as a, as a general stroke of what is this deal about stuttering on purpose, it seems like the most counterintuitive thing you'd ever want to do. The person comes to stop stuttering. What's up with this desensitizing if you've never heard of it, it's something out there, and it can be an extremely, uh, powerful thing, but it's also a delicate thing and it has to be done with common sense and sensitivity.

Pseudo stuttering, stuttering on purpose. How does that work, Scott? .

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Great. Great question. Um, it's, it's really interesting. A lot of people use it. It's been in the field for a long time. Uh, it's a technique that's used specifically to help people reduce their fear. Oddly, there's very little research on it.

Uh, and in fact, one of my doctoral students, Karen Harring, many of you would know Karen from, uh, Sutter talk and from her work with friends Karen b team. Yeah. , the B team. Yeah. Hook up, stutter, talk this

Uri Schneider: com. You can hear a, a lot of great stuff. Karen's stuff. It's all there with many others. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Yes, absolutely.

Um, that's her dissertation topic, uh, is to take a look at this voluntary stuttering as a form of desensitization. Um, the desensitization has been around forever. We know that this works. If there's a thing that you are uncomfortable with, one of the ways to reduce that discomfort is to face that thing, but you're uncomfortable with it.

So it can be very difficult to face it all at once. , right? And so this gradual approach of touching the thing that scares you, allowing yourself to experience it, but in a safer environment is the idea. And voluntary stuttering is a way of helping people who have a fear of stuttering begin to reduce that fear of stuttering.

We all know that it's valuable when we use it in therapy, not necessarily for everybody because everyone's different, but again, the literature is very thin. Uh, and we need to have a, a better understanding of, for example, some of the questions, how fast do you move? Is it the same path for everyone? What if someone actually doesn't?

Want to go down that path, can we still help them? Right? The answer is yes. We just need other paths. Uh, so there's a lot of questions that we don't know. However, as you said, it's a very, it can be a very powerful technique for people to reach out, touch their fear, get to know their fear. My adult clients and I talk about experiencing a, a stutter, whether it's a real stutter or a fake stutter and allowing yourself to be in that moment.

It's a mindfulness exercise to roll that moment around in your mouth, like you might savor a fine wine and to just be with it. And that can be very hard to do when it's a real stutter in that moment cuz of all the other emotions. But taking a fake one and just creating the surface manifestation, it's not a real stutter.

It's not got that under the surface manifestation. That stuck sensation of losing control. But being able to experience that surface part can help to break down some of the discomfort for kids. We don't talk about wine, of course. Tasting, uh, a good bit of chocolate or like you might, we do

Uri Schneider: wine tasting.

Some of the pictures in that slideshow. And I'll try to make one for Jerry too. We'll have, uh, that little video I made, I pulled up some time where we went to that winery together. Yes. So indeed. Don't do that with kids. No, no, no.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: And was adult doubting, have you ever taken an m and m though? And instead of just crunching into it Yes, just letting it be there.

And, you know, first you got the color and then you got the candy part, and then you got the milk chocolate part. Yeah. And you're ex you're thinking about it. It's just a mindfulness exercise and

Uri Schneider: is a shout out. If you go back to the conversation I had about two weeks ago with Dan Greenwald, he said that that was such a breakthrough moment, that kind of mindfulness exercise.

He did it with Adriana, the Grandes, and he said that that was such a powerful thing. Oh, good, good. Yeah. I would just add to, or, or just share for Aman, for others that are thinking about this exercise. First of all, for the person who stutters overtly and very well, they stutter a lot. Very strong and they, they can't really speak in any other way.

It would kind of be unnecessary because they're already stuttering so much to ask them to be open and stutter openly. You can play with modulating it and ramping it up a little bit or ramping it down a little bit. But the people that I think benefit most are those that are kind of like in that mid-range.

The people that also don't respond well are those that have tremendous amount of anxiety. So I'm thinking of a particular client that we're gonna co-present at the ISAD conference, and she and I are actually meeting later today, and I worked with her and she came to me so traumatized from a previous therapist, a very good therapist, and I never knew what the issue was, what had happened.

It took a year of building trust until she told me that the therapist asked me to do some pseudo stuttering or asked me to step into a space that I wasn't ready to step into. And because of her temperament, because of the way she was wired and the way she was at that moment in her, Development, something that was very reasonable, clinically made sense.

It was justified, was just not the right fit for that person at that moment. A year later, she had, she, she texted me before our meeting, she said this, today, I want you to make me make a phone call. Now, I had promised her, I will never make you do anything. She said, you have to make me make a phone call. I said, I told you at the beginning, I'll never, it's a two year relationship.

We met not every week at all. It was a on and off kind of thing, a therapeutic relationship. And she comes into the clinic and I said, well, what do you wanna do? She said, you need to make me make the phone call. And um, she ended up making the phone call cuz she chose to make the phone call. And we talked about what, what would she feel like if she avoided making the phone call?

What would she feel like when she left that day and what would she feel like if she made the phone call and it. Pretty poorly and she didn't feel like it was a success. And what would she feel like if she did it? And it actually went better than she expected, and we kind of had to hold all those possibilities and she stepped into it.

Um, but what, what I think about with her, the first time I did voluntary stuttering was a gentle way to back into it, is to tell the person, would you like to do this exercise an invitation? And if they say no, I say, okay, not yet. And then we just hold it out there. It doesn't mean in five minutes I'm gonna push it on them, but the next move might be I'll say, well, I'm gonna do it.

You tell me how you want me to stutter, and I'll call Zappos or some other phone line or pizza or whatever and do it. And gives them a chance to vicariously experience it. And then at some point they say, Hey, give me a turn. I'm ready. And, uh, it's amazing what can happen. But I would say tread lightly because it's, it's an, it's a very powerful maneuver.

And anything that's powerful has to be done judiciously. So with the impact also comes responsibility. Um, another question for you Scott. People wanna know about the genes. genetic research and genetic findings and what to make of that and what relevance does that have in terms of prognostic forecasts and therapeutic decisions, if any.

Sure. And then I wanna talk about the, the pharmacology, so I'm gonna wrap them together. Sure.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Well, what we're learning more and more is that stuttering has a genetic component to it in many cases, that doesn't yet mean that as frontline clinicians, we'll be drawing blood or taking a cheek swab from our clients.

Just

Uri Schneider: a shout out to Shelly, Joe Craft, um, you're on deck, so you, you're invited.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Yeah. Um, but Right. In fact, that would be my next sentence is we definitely want that information for research purposes. And Shelly Joe Kraft at Wayne State University here in Michigan is, um, is the leader in this, uh, uh, there are many others doing good work, but, um, I often look to Shelly Joe's work on this because she is doing some of the biggest studies, uh, in the world looking at these genetic.

Factors that play a role. It's complicated. It's not just, oh, this person has a stuttering gene and this person doesn't, uh, you know, it's not like that. But for our purposes, as frontline clinicians, stuttering tends to run in families. And it's not because you picked it up from your grandparents or your cousin, you got it from your cousin.

It's because of that underlying. Genetic difference. And where that becomes important is that the genetic differences lead to neurological differences. That's keep

Uri Schneider: talking. I need to get my plug if I disappear.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Hey, when that happens. Yep. Shouldn't have happened. Keep going. It's okay. I'll keep talking.

You'll be back. Uh, and I'll . Uh, those genetic differences are important and meaningful because they lead to physiological differences. They lead to neurological differences, and that's really where the origin of stuttering ends up being. It's not a behavior. It's not just something that you pick up or something that you learn because it's just a difference in the brain.

It's just a difference in experience that people have, and knowing that is tremendously important. Oops. I think we may have, oh no, he, he might be back . Um, knowing that is tremendously important for taking some of the blame. Out of stuttering. Often people who stutter feel like they must have done something wrong.

Often they feel like their parents may have done something wrong, or the parents themselves may worry that they've done something wrong. But it's tremendously important to know, no, that's not how stuttering works. There's no blame to people who stutter. It is just a difference. And when we know that, when we truly know that, then it becomes much, much easier to say, Hey, it's okay to stutter.

You're not doing anything wrong. When you stutter, you simply stutter because your brain is different. You simply stutter because of the development. And, uh, I, I've worked with people for whom, you know, on the one hand they think, oh, if it's in my brain, does that mean I can't change it? And it doesn't mean that.

Um, but it also means that, okay, it's not that I did something. Uh, so yeah, I think that's stuff's important. I don't know if we're gonna be able to get or back. He's disappeared. Um, I can just keep talking forever. Oh, here, he's gonna come back. Yay. Oh, back on the phone. Great. .

Uri Schneider: What did I miss? Did they say anything good?

Oh, no,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: nothing much. Just talking about the, the, the fact that having, uh, having this understanding about the underlying neurology and the underlying genetics can help to reduce some of the blame that people put on themselves and that parents put on themselves. Uh, and that's an important first step toward easing the burden of stuttering.

People who stutter often carry that, that weight around and letting them know, oh, that, that, that they didn't do anything wrong, can make a difference. Absolutely. We've got two worries now. Uh,

Uri Schneider: here we go. That's way too much .

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Hold on one second. Great example of adaptability though. Stuff happens. We roll with it.

Uri Schneider: It's a stuttering moment. Stutter moment. Technology. Technology. One second. Second. Yep,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: you're coming back.

Uri Schneider: So I had one thought on that and I think it's a practical thought. Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Yep,

Dr. Scott Yaruss: you're back.

Uri Schneider: Great. So the thought is that, uh, very often when you hear that there's a genetic component, if you're a parent or you're a person who stutters, you start to kind of add that to the pile of reasons why you think things are not gonna turn out well.

And I've had countless situations. . Um, while it is an important variable to include in the assessment and in the understanding and into creating a story, there's also a side of this that's an asset. Because if you have a history of stuttering in the family, you may have wisdom in terms of how people responded, how people coped, how people adapted.

You may have insight into the likelihood of your adaptability and response going a certain direction, and the likelihood that you need to do something to adapt differently than your uncle did or than your grandfather did. And if you're a parent who stutters, I think one of the most frightful things as young parents, I have a 16 year old and a 14 year old and eight year old twins, each one different from the other.

I know that my greatest fear was having kids that would have challenges, that would have some of the challenges that I had, and I wouldn't be equipped to help them. And if you're a person who stutters, very common, as with many other things, you're concerned that you don't wanna bring a child into the world that goes through what you went through that has what you had.

And I think it can be such a. A beautiful thing to see a parent have a moment where they take their story, they don't project it on the child, but they use the insight, the empathy, the understanding, and they bring that into their parenting. And while none of us get a degree in parenting the experiences of our lives, and again, being people who learn how to be honest, who learn how to hang in, in tough times, to learn how to listen, and all the things Scott talked about as clinicians, parents can be the champions and the heroes of their kids' lives.

I think that's something that we see in the clinic all the time. So I, I like to pivot that and say, from the research we know the genetic predisposition is very much there and that opens doors for further research and very forward thinking. You know, types of intervention, which we can talk about in the future, but, but clinically and in real, , it shouldn't be thought of as something that means that, uh, the next generation has a lesser chance of making it.

And on the contrary, you can really leverage that to bring a level of understanding and insight that people that don't stutter, or a family that doesn't have a family history, they just don't get it. But if you have that in the history, you can turn to that and leverage that. Um, what do you think of that, Scott?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: I tell parents when the, it's the parent who stutters kids don't learn to stutter from their parents. It's genetic, but they can learn how to cope with stuttering. From their parents. And so there's a lot of experiences that maybe adults who stutter had that they don't want their kids to have to have. Uh, but that does give us a bit of a roadmap then.

Uh, you didn't wanna be bullied when you were in school. You don't want your child to be bullied. Of course you don't. What can we draw upon to say, all right, how are we gonna approach this a little bit differently? What might have helped you back then? I wonder if those things might help here. Uh, and so it does give us, uh, a counterpoint in many cases.

And then also we want to take a step back and say, you know, if we can help people who stutter, get to that point where they feel less burden, where they're living more the life they wanted to live, some people come to that point where they can see that those experiences, even though they were not pleasant experiences at the time, they did help peop help you get to where you are.

That understanding that you've got that empathy that you've got about other people, you earned it. It, it was hard earned, but you earned it. And maybe being able to see. Some of these strengths might actually have come from the hardship.

Uri Schneider: Chris Constantino, I love his line. You know, stuttering gains. Mm-hmm.

what were some of the things that in hindsight and hopefully 2020 will be soon hindsight for us all New year coming up and hopefully 2020 is packed in enough of a punch, we should see a turn and everyone's safety and wellness in terms of peace and respect for all people and better tidings. But, uh, hindsight, 2020 stuttering can be a really rough ride for many people.

Doesn't have to be. There are many kids that go through life and do not get teased and do not get bullied. That doesn't have to be the experience, right? So if you're someone that went through that, don't assume that's gonna happen. But as Scott and Nina and so many have done, contributing to ways to get in front of that, to to, to strengthen kids, to create safer spaces in classrooms, inform teachers how to look out for the vulnerable kids and manage behavior and be in front of bullying.

We had the parent meet up. Everyone was asking Braden parents. So what was the secret? What's the recipe to raise a kid that speaks at the DNC convention? So open. Open, so comfortable, speaks beautifully and stutters, and speaks beautifully and, and gives over a great message. What's the recipe? And being a professional educator as mom being sued down to earth, they said, first of all, it's not so simple.

It's not so simple at all that it's always peaches and cream. And secondly, there's no recipe. But one thing that came away from that conversation, parents were asking, should we force the kid to go to do therapy? Should we force the kid to do his strategy? Should we not? These are conversations that we could carry on.

What we came away with was, again, there's so many, there's a multiplicity of things that you can do. The one thing that you shouldn't do is ignore the elephant in the room. Mm-hmm. . So if there's something going on, whatever it is. And certainly with stuttering, the research tells us, uh, if we can find a way to have an open conversation, if we can find a way to have descriptive language that's not judgmental.

Mm-hmm. , I tell parents it's kind of like the conversation about the birds and the bees. Nobody wants to have it. No one thinks it's time. , and if you wait long enough, someone else has that conversation. Whether it's from media, television, internet, friends, someone else has the conversation and makes that first impression.

But if we can have that conversation with courage and vulnerability and with some language that makes it comfortable, that opens a line of communication. As important as that conversation about the birds and the bees is for accused stutters, finding a way to touch the elephant in the room, it's so important.

Wouldn't you agree?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Mm-hmm. , absolutely. Openness is, is key.

Uri Schneider: And final thoughts, final thoughts. Just to respect your time. I feel badly that we're over time, but final thoughts from you, Scott?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Final thoughts from me? Oh, that.

Uri Schneider: Final, final thoughts for this chapter as we close this conversation?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Oh, well, clinicians

Uri Schneider: hope, hopes and dreams.

What would you hope for in the next five years? What would you hope to see from your team, from your lab, from your students, from our field, from your clients? What's a vision? What's a dream?

Dr. Scott Yaruss: All right. Thinking big, um, where stuttering, uh, moving toward a world where stuttering can be viewed truly as just a characteristic, clinicians need to take that view first.

We need to be at the forefront of this because we can't expect people who stutter, who are already experiencing this burden to just throw it off so that they can tell people that they're okay. We need, we can take the lead on this. We have a responsibility. Uh, and so that means that we need to change our own thinking as clinicians.

That's the, the audience that I write for the most to help them see that, you know, it's not if we think it's a bad thing when someone stutters, we're not gonna be able to convey to them that they're. . So we have to change that first, change our language, change our thinking. Stuttering is not bad.

Stuttering is not a mistake that a person is making. It's just the way their speech is coming out, and it's okay because if we can start that message, then we'll have an easier time telling parents, telling clients, and that'll begin the opportunity to have some conversations that need to be had.

Uri Schneider: Beautiful. I'll ask myself the same question and I would just say hopefully more time with you, hopefully more collaboration anytime, and hopefully to contribute to specifically that, that question of figuring out what are some of the, the indicators that help us profile what, what a person needs to look at each person individually.

On the one hand, this is a population called people who stutter, but they're a very heterogeneous mixed group and figuring out what are those, what are those features, both among people and if it's young children, what are the features among the parents that tell us what would be most helpful? In terms of helping clinicians supporting the good work that, uh, Scott and Nina doing, stuttering therapy resources.com.

You can also go to yaris.com. Uh, ways for clinicians to really feel more equipped, more empowered, more understanding to have a framework. Um, and certainly we, we look forward to continuing to contribute to that as well. And then also making stuttering therapy good experiences to support people who feel stuck.

People who feel they can't say what they wanna say. People who feel like they're burnt out from what the world has to offer them and they just kind of have to resign to their fate to make real wholesome opportunities available to those folks. Cuz both of us know Scott. There are a lot of, a lot of s snake oil people out there selling cures and promising the moon.

And it doesn't help. It really doesn't help cuz people end up getting scammed and feeling that their expectations and hopes are dashed and then they're more hurt than they were before they started. So creating real wholesome opportunities so that people around the world can really access good, good care and experiences.

This has been a tremendous treat. Look forward to coming back, Schneider speech.com. Check it out, yaris.com stuttering therapy resources like and share the video. And thank you for taking the time, Scott, and for all of you wish everybody a beautiful day. Stay safe, still healthy, and keep talking.

Dr. Scott Yaruss: Thanks so much.

Wonderful.

Uri Schneider: Let me just stop the live. Yep.

I think I'm gonna end the call to stop the live. I'll come right back. Okay.