BIO

Dr. Elaina Kefalianos is the Lead of Teaching and Senior Lecturer for the Master of Speech Pathology course at the University of Melbourne. She has 13 years of clinical research experience. Her current research focuses on better understanding the development of stuttering and recovery in population-level studies and improving management approaches for children who stutter. 

 

Elaina is Vice-President for the Stuttering Association for the Young: Australia. This is a national not for profit organization for 7-18-year-old Australian young people who stutter. Some of her latest research is focused on conducting trials examining the efficacy of novel creative arts programs to improve psychosocial outcomes for young people who stutter. She is also a chief investigator for the Effective Stuttering Treatment project. Together with colleagues at the University of Oslo in Norway, she is developing a new intervention program for preschool children who stutter.

 

Elaina’s research has been published in international leading discipline-specific journals. She has received over $2.5M in competitive research grants to date and has been an invited speaker at 4 international seminars. 

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

0:00-7:35: Welcome and opening marks

7:35-13:42: SAY: Australia = magic 

13:42-19:01: Being a professional researcher/clinician and also a personal partner with a PWS 

19:01-24:20: Navigating stuttering society 

24:20-30:00: Bringing data to life and using stories to generate evidence (research data)

30:00-32:56: The inspirational example of Dr. Susan Block and how Elaina discovered her passion for stuttering 

32:56-38:02: International perspective and collaboration between Australia-Norway

44:09-45:45: Talking about the intersection of professional and personal stuttering worlds

45:45-58:37: Stereotypes and stigma... Australian accents and Vegemite vs. American accents and peanut butter and jelly

58:00-60:00: Closing remarks

RESOURCES

• SAY: Australia
  

• Murdoch Children’s Research Institute
  

• Non‐pharmacological interventions for stuttering in children aged between birth and six years (2019)
  

• Article: A systematic review of interventions for adults who stutter (2020)

MORE QUOTES

“I was much more focused on the functional communication in terms of, are they able to say a sentence? I was not doing as well with thinking about when they're saying that sentence, are they enjoying that communication exchange? Is it a positive experience for them? And I feel like I was really failing as an individual, as a clinician to be thinking about it in arguably the most important way that there is. - Dr. Elaina Kefalianos

“It's so much more than a job. It's not a nine to five. And I say, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I would do the same thing and I would actually pay to do what I get to do. - Uri Schneider

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: It was severe, but we're not here for the weather report. It is super exciting to be here. My name is Ori Schneider, and this is the transcending stuttering podcast. And having Alaina can falling on us. I do. Yeah, it's all Greek to me, but, uh, Dr. Elena could fall Yanos comes to us down from Australia and she is involved in some awesome, awesome title shifts.

Uri Schneider: And we're not talking about surfing. Okay. Elena is the lead, uh, of teaching and senior lecture at the university of Melbourne. She has 13 years of clinical and research experience. She's really interested in helping us understand the development of stuttering and the recovery in the population level studies and improving the management of how we engage and work and understand and empower children who stutter in addition, She's also the vice president for stuttering association for the young Australia.

Uri Schneider: And if you're familiar with the stuttering association for the young organization called se, uh, started by taro Alexander out of New York, they are touching different parts of the continent and now going. Around the world. So, um, Elena is vice-president of sail Australia. It's a nonprofit reaching out to young people, ages seven to 18.

Uri Schneider: Uh, tarot taught me that it's called kids young people. I love it. There are no less people than others. Um, and some of her research is working on all kinds of novel creative arts programs to improve psychosocial outcomes for these young people. She's also, if she wasn't busy enough, the chief investigator for the effective stuttering treatment project.

Uri Schneider: Uh, working with colleagues in the university of Oslo, Norway, she probably does as much as zooming and globe trotting as I do. And that says a lot. So I feel for her, and I'm grateful that it's 11:00 PM, uh, down under, and she's taken the time to have this conversation with us. Thank you for joining us.

Uri Schneider: What did I miss? What do you want people to know about you and your why?

Elaina Kefalianos: Thank you very much URI. So, um, well you you've covered, um, the crux of it there, but I suppose, um, my why when it comes to, um, the world of stuttering is basically to try and, um, further improve, um, the landscape here in Australia in terms of what we're offering, people who stutter in particularly young people who stutter at the moment.

Uri Schneider: And for a lot of us, at least my kids are very into nature. So we're very into wildlife and nature. There are some things that are unique to Australia. If some of you don't know, um, besides being a big Island, uh, it's a very unique constant Marsupial's kangaroos, koala, BAS all kinds of wonderful things, but tell us what's unique about, uh, what is.

Uri Schneider: What has been the perception and understanding of stuttering and what are some of the things that are shifting both in terms of the context of just understanding difference, understanding difference in general. And, uh, just that, and then within the specific area of our shared interest, which is stuttering, how is the understanding of stuttering, the stigma of stuttering, the treatment of stuttering, the opportunities where people who stutter, how is that evolving as we speak?

Uri Schneider: But I think it's helpful to kind of know what's. Where are we coming from? Where do we find ourselves? And kind of, where do you hope we can go?

Elaina Kefalianos: Yes, I think so to look at where we've come from first. Um, I think we, you know, since entering the field of speech pathology, um, from the outset, I was always really, really immersed in a very research rich environment in terms of the output that Australian research is what producing in the, in the stuttering space.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, And, you know, certainly a lot of people, um, are very familiar with, um, various treatment programs that have been developed in Australia. Um, many of those who've got really strong, um, evidence-based is behind them and, um, have been demonstrated to work really well in terms of, um, providing a medium for people to achieve fluency at different stages of life.

Elaina Kefalianos: So I think when I think about. My own personal journey with understanding the stuttering landscape, if you like, um, and how we manage it and how we look at it here in Australia. I think certainly, um, going through university. There was always an acknowledgement of the impact that stuttering can have on an individual.

Elaina Kefalianos: So, um, in terms of the impact that it can have on their mental health or the impact that it can have on their quality of life or the impact that it can have on their, um, their sense of self. Um, but. A lot of the, um, the focus in kids is management or in terms of support for people who start up was very focused on, um, speech outcomes.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and. Generally speaking, I would say if you had a client who presented to you with, um, with any sorts of, um, mental health challenges or any other sorts of, um, co-morbidities those people, you would generally refer them to a psychologist for, um, As an example, let's say cognitive behavioral therapy, if they were experiencing anxiety.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, but, but that was kind of, um, that was kind of the extent of the management. Um, so where we've kind of slowly, slowly progressed toward, I think is that there's been a huge amount of research that's come out. Um, in recent years, really painting a very full and very strong message to highlight. Just how prolific the impact of stuttering can be on an individual in all the different ways that we've just been talking about.

Elaina Kefalianos: And I think as that momentum has grown and grown, um, and. I then couple that with my experience, as a clinician, where I would be sitting across the table from these young school aged children who, you know, we'd be, I'd be treating them. Um, I'd be providing them with treatment to address their fluency or to, to establish fluency RADA.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and I'd have these kids sitting across the table from me crying because they were, they were either frustrated that they weren't yet fluent. Um, or they were, um, you know, unfortunately, maybe one of those children who were a bit older and who we're going to need to change the way that I talk to achieve fluency rather than receive the treatment that, um, creates a generalization of fluency, if you like.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and I felt really inadequate. I felt like. I felt like I didn't have the tools in my kit to be able to give these children and their families, everything that they needed. I knew exactly what to do from a fluency perspective. I had, I had all my steps care in place, and I was, I felt very, very competent with being able to address their needs from a speech perspective, but in every other way, which, you know, if you think about, um, you know, that very historical and famous, um, Shane's Oscar model.

Elaina Kefalianos: All that stuff beneath the surface, I felt completely in it to be able to handle properly. And I felt like it was really, really highlighting to me a huge gap in our ability to, or in my ability to support these children the way they needed to be supported. Um, and so where that has been brought me to in the now, um, is that, um, I wanted to do something about it.

Elaina Kefalianos: And, um, speaking to, um, rich, rich Stevens, who is the president of say Australia? Um, I'd never heard of say before, um, prior to meeting rich and, um, we were having, we were having a good discussion, um, about different treatment practices and at different perspectives on treatment. And, um, he introduced me to the world of state.

Elaina Kefalianos: And the first thing that really appealed to me about that concept was the possibility of bringing kids together into the same space to make another child who stutters. And that to me, was the most powerful and the most magical out of all of the different, um, things or services. If you like that say offers, was that it.

Elaina Kefalianos: Creating a sense of community and connectedness between these children to show them that they aren't alone, um, that there are other people, other, other young people who, who are going through similar experiences to them and that they can relate to on a really deep level. Um, and, and then beyond that, it was, it provided a medium for me to be able to.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, had possible other ranks is to working on all those other aspects to stuttering. So all the other possible impacts that STEM can have on these young people. Um, the, the creative arts programs that say Australia offers that say office in America that offered a medium for me to be able to start supporting those young people in those ways as well.

Elaina Kefalianos: So that's my now, and that's where a lot of my energy and Rich's energy is going into is creating a pool. Holistic balanced management, um, portfolio for young people in Australia

Uri Schneider: portfolios. You know, there are things that you say in Australia that are just so wonderful. And then there are things, it is interesting country to country, even among English speaking countries.

Uri Schneider: Um, I've a lot of friends that are British. We have a lot of friends that are Australian, their friends are South African. I sometimes can tell the difference sometimes I can't, but there are these idioms. Or these ways of using speech. So even when you just said it, the portfolio of options, that's such a beautiful image.

Uri Schneider: And I just finished listening, uh, yesterday to the most recent stutter talk podcast with our friend, Peter writes is, and Chris Constantino talking about the pressures that people who stutter feel on the one hand, the pressure to be fluent. And on the other hand, the pressure to be open with stuttering and instead are openly.

Uri Schneider: And I think it's such a fascinating thing. Um, and as you're talking about different ways for young people who stutter to experience their life and communication and expressing themselves, what would you say is something from that say experience like you described where you take young people, you bring them together.

Uri Schneider: Um, often using the creative arts as a context. Among other parts of your portfolio experiences. Um, but what's something that the kids experienced or that you witnessed that you feel otherwise isn't possible unless you bring these kids together in that kind of say creative arts experience, it can't happen in a one-on-one meeting with a clinician.

Uri Schneider: What would be like. From the kid's point of view from the, from the experiential side of the child, what would you say is something that's just, wow. And you just want to share with us. And I also just want to make a plug while you think about that. Very big news. My beautiful stutter is now on I think, discovery and other.

Uri Schneider: Uh, streaming services and around the world, you can now see this movie, my beautiful stutter, which was co-produced helped me out by George Springer, MVP all-star uh, in the, um, major league baseball, also a person who stutters as well as Paul Rudd, who I enjoyed rubbing shoulders with at the annual Bowl-a-thon in New York with se.

Uri Schneider: So they co-produced this movie featuring, uh, this camp say experience in the U S but uh, hearing it straight from. From Elaina. Yeah. What would you say as a witness to some of these experiences? What would you say is happening for these kids? That can't happen in a clinical one-on-one situation?

Elaina Kefalianos: So the one way that, and when rich described, say to me, he described it like this, and I didn't quite believe it could be this path Lynch, lesser myself, but in one word, I would say magic, but in a more extended response, I would say that.

Elaina Kefalianos: Say and say Australia, they have the ability to decimate that sense of isolation that these young people are potentially feeling. Um, and I do not feel it all up that he's overstating. Um, what some of these children experienced and what I've seen. Some of these children experienced the, the, she had body language that.

Elaina Kefalianos: Some of our young people have come into their first say Australia session with, um, at, in the space of even just that first 30 minutes, let alone to the end of a two hour session when they walked back out the door to go home. Um, it is like you are looking at and working with two completely different young people at times.

Elaina Kefalianos: It is, as I said, I did not believe. How powerful it could be until I witnessed it with my own eyes, but it truly is a piece of magic.

Uri Schneider: Unbelievable. If you're watching this, if you like this and you think this message needs to be heard, drop your comments, drop your shares, your likes, um, that helps a lot. And if you're listening on the podcast, you can subscribe and check it out on transcending stuttering.

Uri Schneider: But, um, I love that line. I also want to invite people to like jot down in the comments, your favorite takeaway. Decimating that feeling of isolation, what a never heard it put that way, Dessa that isolation and just decimating it. And I know for young people that I've been a part of their journey to feel like they have a home to feel like they have a community.

Uri Schneider: Like they found their people. You know, they no longer feel like the one in their school or the one in their community or the one in their family that there's no one that really gets it. Everybody kind of wants to get it or wants to help me fix it or change it. But the feeling of belonging with a community of others, of all sizes, shapes, stripes, colors, et cetera, all coming together, that universal connection, that human connection around this.

Uri Schneider: It is magical. I knew you were going to say that. Um, but I loved what you said, decimating, the feeling of isolation, because what most people don't realize is if you take know the, the incidents of stuttering as much greater than people think it's about 1% of the adult population, roughly 5% of kids, roughly stutter for six months or more, but even just that number, which may be under stated.

Uri Schneider: Is is remarkable because if you're in a stadium there's like tens hundreds of people who stutter, but they're all seated in different sections. They never find each other. And what say, and other experiences like it, do they bring these people together, which is not to say we can't do more and we can't push the bar forward, but it is to say we're not alone.

Uri Schneider: And the power of community is, um, is one. We can't ignore people. Benefit everybody is raised up. The community's raised up people, stutter people don't stutter, which brings me to another question. We didn't prepare Lena, but I feel I'm going to toss this one. You have a unique, um, partnership with, uh, rich in the sense that you lead say together, you are also partners in your personal life.

Uri Schneider: Is that right? Yeah. So what could you share about, uh, being a person who doesn't stutter. As I am. And as you are in many of us in this professional space, as well as others who are in the professional space, who do stutter, but those of us that don't stutter, we have a unique perspective than those of us that, and I'm not art coupled with someone who stutters, what has that, how has that enlightened you or informed your portfolio of understanding?

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, well obviously, um, you know, the obvious answer there is, it gives you a level of. Um, insight into their own experiences, which, which go beyond what you read in the literature, because you're not just getting. You're not just getting those generic statements around, um, uh, you know, anxiety or isolation or bullying.

Elaina Kefalianos: You're getting real life real lived. Examples of moments in this person's life. In my case, in Rich's life where he, that hate thing. Traded really poorly simply because he speaks a bit differently to the next person. Um, or yeah, where he's been disadvantaged in some way, again, simply because he speaks a little bit differently from time to time compared to the next person.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, so yeah, of course there's going to be that level of, um, that, that extra level of insight that I get from, from him sharing his own experiences with me. Um, but I think that the learning that I've done, that I couldn't necessarily prepare for was my own personal experiences becoming the partner. Oh, somebody who studies, um, in terms of the, the feelings that you go through.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, you know, I mean, rich has quite a milestone of now, you know, many of our friends, um, when I first met him, I actually don't even know how many months it was before. You know, he kind of just casually would mention the fact that he stabbed his neighbor. Sorry you want. And just like, I haven't picked up on anything and he speaks to indicate that he was a person who stutters.

Elaina Kefalianos: Right. But, um, but suddenly, almost like those few moments, I remember very, very early on in our relationship. And the first time that, um, rich experienced a really strong block. And I remember the learning I did in that moment, because naturally. Um, I think there's a tendency to want to help your partner, um, in a moment of difficulty.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, but then, you know, you also had your clinician hat on where you I've got that past knowledge to say that, you know, you want to give a person who studies the space to, to. Say what they want, they need to say in the time that they need to say it in. Um, and I remember experiencing that very real conflict at the time because what I wanted to do clinically and what I wanted to do as a partner who loves somebody with two very, very different things.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and I suppose that for me was a really big lesson in a really big, um, a really big learning process and changing my mindset. I would say.

Uri Schneider: What would you say is unique to the camp, say experience in the way it's being developed in Australia? Cause you guys, like I said, you have different ways of doing so many things. So from a, just from an international point of view, I think, uh, in our transcending stuttering cohort of SLPs, we're dealing with interesting questions of how you weave in self-acceptance.

Uri Schneider: So one of our, one of our, uh, one of the speech therapists in the group, Is working in the Netherlands and working in Germany. And she was talking about some of the unique challenges in different countries and continents and cultures. Obviously certain families have their own subculture, certain communities have their own subculture, but then the differences between us in different continents and how we look at these things.

Uri Schneider: So from an international way to kind of enlightened us in other places as well. What are some things you've considered and done? To bring this into Australia that could be informative also for others doing this and other places in

Elaina Kefalianos: terms of

Uri Schneider: camps, camp, camp, the initiative, and the value that it offers. I mean, when you tell let's be honest, right?

Uri Schneider: Most parents of kids that have a kid who stutters, they're looking for a fix, they're looking for a cure and, and, and who wouldn't. Right. And on the other hand, We all know that, uh, in the end of the day we want our kids. Well-being long-term to be that, which is not only what it looks like on the outside, but what it looks like on the inside, what it feels like on the inside and what kind of an adult can this person grow into emotionally, socially vocationally, and just in terms of their own selves.

Uri Schneider: So I think it's an interesting challenge when we talk about supportive experiences that are not fix it. It doesn't always resonate with people and understandably so. So how have you navigated that in Australia? Because I think different communities, countries bring a different pretext to that.

Uri Schneider: Absolutely.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, so I think the short answer to that question would be very slowly, um, because it, I suppose the really important. Data that we are trying to emphasize and time to play to people. Um, when introducing the concept of say here in Australia, is that, like you said, if, if we could make every person who studies fluid, um, Then, if we could cure it, then, then we would, for those who wanted a cure, but reality is that as young people, um, as kids get older and they become young people, um, in the school-age years, the likelihood of the treatments that we have available, being able to completely eliminate the stuttering will slowly decline.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, the assumption is I want to people. Absolutely. It works. I've seen myself that I've traded, um, school-aged children who started with great success in some instances. And then in others, I've not experienced the same success and the raisins, so that I don't know on the same clinician in every con in every situation.

Elaina Kefalianos: So for me, it's. The K point would say, I suppose, is that we're not coming. We're not sending a message of, um, it's an either or crutch that you either choose to focus on competence in communication, attitudes, and anger, overall wellbeing, or you choose to be fluid. We are completely supportive of both approaches.

Elaina Kefalianos: And our point is that we think that there is an equally valid space. Both both areas to be addressed in both areas to be supported, um, with young people in Australia. Um, and at the moment I feel like when not when not feeling or we weren't feeling prior to say coming to Australia, I feel like we weren't feeling the latter.

Elaina Kefalianos: We weren't feeling that space of being able to. Support and build up these children's competence and communication attitudes and so on. So, um, at the moment, we're in the process of what are we doing to try and, um, to help people to stay the belt. We're not to say to value all of, all of what we're trying to change it more to give me evidence of what we're trying to change.

Elaina Kefalianos: I think that that's the really key points here. And as I said, really, coming to a workshop, coming to a session. The proof is right in front of you, um, undeniable, but what we're doing at the moment, he's like trying to, um, to collect research data, um, as we're running these programs through, say spreading out so that we can start to publish out of some real hot objective numbers to start speech pathologist to strike them is to show the world really, um, just how powerful these programs can be.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, so I think that that's probably one of our more immediate priorities, um, and just helping people to change their shift to same and changing their awareness, really, to understanding that yes, if that includes the therapy, if your child wants to proceed fluency therapy, we wholeheartedly support that, but there's other whole world of stuttering that, that needs to be given the respect that it deserves as well.

Elaina Kefalianos: And that's where we have.

Uri Schneider: I love so much of what you said. I love how you say it, and I can hear the fire inside of you to kind of bring these, these very meaningful, magical experiences. Into the literature, which requires a different, uh, type of language. You, you can't, you can't measure the magic. So what would be, if you could translate some of what you're doing and it is tricky, but I love the fact that people like you were doing this taking.

Uri Schneider: Meaningful things that we all resonate with and finding ways to measure them in ways, as you said, that are objective that are facts and figures that can then be compelling evidence, compelling support to validate what's being done for parents or lay people. What would you say would be like success metrics?

Uri Schneider: The benefits of, I call that like incorporating or weaving in these types of experiences for each person, each child, there's a different measure. As you described Joseph shins, a iceberg, everybody's got a little bit above the surface and a little bit, but need the surface. The question of proportionality is what differs person to person.

Uri Schneider: I often like to reiterate, not all people who stutter are the same. Some people stutter very frequently, very big with a lot of tension. Other people you wouldn't even believe they stutter because their stutters are so mild. They might cover them up and hide them and follow them and switch their words.

Uri Schneider: They experienced stuttering on the inside and they know it, but it's not the same as what others perceive to be that visible audible experience. So I think very much that everybody's got their own iceberg. Everybody needs to touch both sides of it. The side that's the physical, visible, audible side. And also the side that has to do with the facts, the feelings and the thoughts and all the ways we kind of manage cope, adapt with it.

Uri Schneider: Um, but when you talk to people like let's say parents or lay people, what would you say are those success metrics that you're interested in measuring that become the outcomes of what an experience at a camp say or similar camp experience could be. Yeah.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, I suppose, so we've got some, um, some of the metrics where you think, um, uh, I fixed metrics that are looking at things like, um, how young people's mental health that changes their mental health changes to their communication attitudes, changes to their attitudes toward the stuttering itself.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and changes to their quality of life. And then I can't remember the wording you just used, but it tapped into that idea of individualization and the individual experiences that people are having and how say how their experience is impacting on them in their own lives. Um, and so. Another pop about that at the moment is just collecting stories from, from parents and stories from family about very clear, distinct changes that they've seen in their children through the process they've been through.

Elaina Kefalianos: So, as an example, um, the mother of, one of our young people, um, who's only seven years old. Uh, she are reminded this is going back a few months now, but she forwarded, um, rich and amen. That she received from, um, this young person, speech pathologist saying I've just stayed. I broke call from, um, headteacher.

Elaina Kefalianos: Saying that she has had, she, I don't know what you've been doing with her over the past couple of months, but I have got a new girl in the classroom. I had had to move her three or four times already this week because she will not stop talking. And this is a little girl who never added to work in the classroom prior to coming through safe doors.

Elaina Kefalianos: So that's where it's great to collect all that survey and questionnaire data. Cause you do, you do need that more objective. Um, reporting, uh, you know, in the biggest scientific world, but in fact, those qualitative stories, that's individual stories and examples. Um, that's the stuff that kind of gives me, um, gives me goosebumps when, when families and when young people share the stories with us as well, about how it's changing the loss.

Uri Schneider: Unbelievable. I just added to the video, a link to one of my favorite Ted talks. It's called the danger of the single story. And, um, have you seen that one? No, she's, uh, she was, uh, she is an African poet and writer, and she talks about the fact that we have these stories. We have these anecdotes that we have, these impressions that we have, and they form our understanding of a certain topic or certain people.

Uri Schneider: And we kind of like take that single story assume that that's the right representation of it. We throw it on to everybody and that's the danger of the same, no story. She says, it's not that stories don't matter, but it's the multiplicity of stories that you're able to extract like. You know, what are those common threads?

Uri Schneider: So I think it's so powerful. And for anyone that kind of is like, I dunno stories. Now you take enough stories and you put them together. You start to notice some individual differences, one to the other, which also informs us in terms of the unique differences between people's journeys and how that should inform us on the front end, if we're clinicians or individuals or parents or teachers, or.

Uri Schneider: People of influence in a person's life. What are those things we need to know on the upside, on the front side so that we can differentiate the experience going forward? When is the, when are they ready for change? What stage of change are they at? Are they ready for this experience? Are they ready to step on the stage?

Uri Schneider: Are they ready to kind of be an observer in this room, but not yet beyond the stage and timing that and how do we figure that out? That is informed by seeing many, many sports. Um, so I just highly recommend that Ted talk and I think what you're doing to, to bring those stories to life is. Awesome. Can you tell us about what turned you on to stuttering to begin with?

Uri Schneider: Like, what was that influence or intrigued like when and where, and who was part of that? That kind of got you on fire with this because clearly you're on fire with stuttering. I really

Elaina Kefalianos: am. And that is such a good question. Um, So, I don't know. I'm worried that my aunt isn't quite comparable to my energy.

Elaina Kefalianos: I'll tell you about it. It started with my first, um, I'd say my first real mentor, uh, in world history. So when I was doing my bachelor degree, um, of section apology, um, so it was a four year programming to the subjects that are taught in third year of the program. And the lecture was Dr. Susan block. Um, and so for anyone who knows Sue she's so full of energy, she's a very engaging, um, engaging character, wonderful personality.

Elaina Kefalianos: And so to be honest, I found the area of stuttering. Very interesting, but initially I was really drawn to SUSE. Way of sharing knowledge about stuttering. And in fact, I think her passion for the area is really what drew me into it to begin with. Um, and so because of that, I then. I applied to do honors in my final year of my bachelor's degree.

Elaina Kefalianos: And I really wanted Sue to supervise me. So, um, she was naturally offering a project on stuttering. So, um, I naturally fell into that project. And that was when I started to make families, um, of young preschool children who started. Cause that was, they were the participants that I was recruiting for my study.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and just making these children, meeting these parents and interacting with the. That started to really just draw me into, um, into the world a whole lot more beyond, um, the impact that Sue had already had on me. Um, and I suppose it just snowballed really organically for me because, um, the year optimize on his project.

Elaina Kefalianos: So, um, I was, I decided if I did honors, I was taking a year off to travel through Europe. Um, and so Sue naturally met up with me, um, in London, the following week, she was presenting my honest work at the Oxford disfluency conference and asked me if I wanted to do a PhD. Um, in stuttering. And so as soon as I got home, um, I applied, received the scholarship and the rest is literal history.

Elaina Kefalianos: I've just w now I just, I can't stop looking at it from any, which angle, like, can I teach it? I treat, I research. I I'm, yeah, I'm just completely immersed in it.

Uri Schneider: I love it. I think it's also fascinating. It goes back to what I was saying before, about those of us that don't stutter. What draws us to this cause you listen to Elena and you listen to some other people and I hope to be among them.

Uri Schneider: It's so much more than a job. It's not a nine to five. You know, I, I I've heard others say it. And I say, you know, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I would do the same thing and I would actually pay to do what I get to do. You know, there's something that's just, so there's something beyond it's something magical.

Uri Schneider: It's something feels connected at a. Spiritual or soulful level. It's also inspired by the heroism of young people who stutter people who stutter the heroism of parents and the courage that they demonstrate. I am charged by that. I feel like a better person, a better dad, a better husband, because I'm witness to the kinds of challenges and the kinds of triumphs that I'm privy to.

Uri Schneider: Um, in addition to being a guide for them, I'm a student of them. Um, so another thought that came to mind is you talked about Sue block and so many people that I've spoken to specifically, those who started talking about someone, opened a door for them, someone was a role model or believed in them before they believed in themselves open that door.

Uri Schneider: What you're talking about now is that superblock was that inspirational figure. And she kept saying yes, sure. Yeah, here. Oh, and it was kind of incidental, but then. You know, there was a joke and I'm not suggesting the use of drugs in any way, but I had a teacher that once used to say, you know, when you meet someone super, super on fire with something, you know, I want to know what he's smoking, you know, cause whatever he's smoking, pass it over here.

Uri Schneider: Not at all, referring to anyone here doing drugs, but the idea is the people that you hopefully are, are stoked by, should be people that are on fire with something wholesome and healthy and you want to connect to what they do. So it's kind of cool that. It's a person, it's a person story. It's a people's story.

Uri Schneider: It's not a subject matter. You open a textbook and you're like, I think I just found my life calling. I think when it, for those of us that have access to people, reach out, I think this podcast has been that I've gotten messages from grad students and undergrad students that they're getting on fire, listening to people like you, Elena, and, uh, many of the other guests.

Uri Schneider: And then on the flip side, those of us that have what to give, whether we're a person who stutters, whether we're a speech language pathologist, to make sure that we keep our doors open for people to access and to, and this time of. COVID which we're still getting through. Everybody's accessible because everyone's kind of traveling less, less busy, less running around to some degree, so you can reach out to anybody.

Uri Schneider: So I just wanna encourage people to reach out yesterday. We did a, we did a clubhouse conversation. You can check it out, uh, at Schneider speech, we're just checking it out. We're going to try to create a transcending stuttering space on clubhouse. We had Chris Wenger better known as speech dude, you know, speech dude.

Uri Schneider: Yeah. Okay. I know I'm personally. I just want to hear, give me like three adjectives that come to mind when you think of that guy. Oh, you've put me on the spot. Okay. I'll take you off the spot. Give it a go. I'll take you off the spot. Okay. The man is a tattooed rockstar, creative beyond belief. Um, he's just a machine of positive energy.

Uri Schneider: I like to say you better wear a mask around him. Cause he's contagious is so high energy. By the time you're done, you're pumped. If only you had the biceps of that guy. So Chris and I became good buddies. And it turns out you wouldn't believe it. Oh no. You can go back and watch the interview with him. We popped on a call.

Uri Schneider: Totally spontaneously did one of these spontaneously, no joke. Like I'm like, this is too good of a story. Can we quickly jump on zoom? And we did and I recorded it and it's on the blog and it's on the podcast. And he said that back in the day as a student, he was watching the documentary transcending stuttering.

Uri Schneider: Mm, the inside story came out in 2004. He said it completely shifted his thinking about stuttering opened up a whole new way of approaching kids and young people and people who stutter. Um, but what was really cool, the other guests that collaborated with me, so many women in the field, right? So I said, why don't we have three dudes who are speech therapists?

Uri Schneider: So it was speech dude himself. Then we had Eric Raj I'm sure. You know, Eric, Eric is a rockstar from New Jersey. And, uh, I, myself just kind of like facilitating these two rock stars and there we were and somebody pops on clubhouse. You can't record them. There they're live podcast style, but they're not recorded.

Uri Schneider: Guy pops on. And he says, I just want to thank you Eric. Eight years ago, I reached out because I needed some direction whether to go into speech or not. And you were so gracious at the eight years later, and now I'm an SLP in the schools in LA. And I just want to thank you. So Sue block was there for you.

Uri Schneider: You gotta be there for others. And I just find, encourage anyone that's listening. That's a student just reach out. I think most of us that do this again. We want to share the fire. And the beautiful thing about fire is when you share a flame, when you share a candle, you don't lose the two flames at the beginning, they actually burn brighter and then you can separate them.

Uri Schneider: And each burn independently, and nobody loses everybody wins and you can spread it by passing the candle, passing the fire. So I'm just riffing on that and Elena. Yeah. So it's like campfire time at camp. Say you could tell that story, um, or maybe, maybe Cody packer will steal it. We'll see. Um, so what about Norway?

Uri Schneider: I mean, again, it's summer down by you, but up there it's kinda cold. What, what is the work you're doing over there? What's the nature of it? What's the collaboration all about that's some great colleagues up there whose names. I have trouble pronouncing with all the different vowel symbols. I said we hung out in, I say Asha.

Uri Schneider: Oh, so awesome. Yeah. Oh, so we hung out in Croatia last year. She's uh, she's. She's drinking the juice that you're drinking clearly. Uh, all set on fire. No doubt. No doubt. So what can you tell us about the good things coming out of that collaboration or the work that you're doing there? Yes.

Elaina Kefalianos: Sorry. There are a wonderful group from, um, mostly from the university of Oslo.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, but, um, they basically, Oh gosh. How many years ago is it now? I think we've, we've been collaborating on some level for about, um, for about, uh, five or six. No much, much longer. Gosh, since 2011, actually. Gosh, that's, that's gone quickly. Um,

Uri Schneider: cause you're only like 25. Oh, yeah,

Elaina Kefalianos: absolutely. Um, so yeah. Um, well, I've read decade now that we're talking about it.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and

Uri Schneider: I'm feeling old, the more you keep reflecting on adding years, let's just say it's been a good time. It's been interesting. It's been such

Elaina Kefalianos: a good time. It's passed by so quickly. Um, and so for the past few years, um, on one of their trips to Melbourne, we were having a chat about, um, Well, actually having a chat about the state of play in terms of preschool treatments.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and we decided that we wanted to look at exploring other possibilities in terms of, um, yeah, diversifying, um, treatment options that might be available for preschool children who stood

Uri Schneider: up just to give a little specificity. So we're not completely in the clouds as opposed to like, what were you familiar with and what was it you were looking to kind of.

Uri Schneider: Develop off of, or develop an alternative to, so what was the. Standard or what was the existing and what were you saying? You know what, I think we need something a little bit more add to that, build on that. Something, you know, what were you referring to?

Elaina Kefalianos: Yes, kind of a bit different, depending on who you're asking the team.

Elaina Kefalianos: So for me, we're in the Ozzy pack. Um, the treatment that, um, I had always used, um, as a first approach with preschool children who stutter is the Lidcombe program. And by and large, I've had great success with that. Um, but. Um, in Norway, the treatment landscape is completely different. So in Norway from the, um, they did a bit of a, uh, they put the feelers out to

Uri Schneider: look at what a portfolio approach,

Elaina Kefalianos: a fusion, the portfolio approach.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and what, like basically came back with there was saying that, um, Clinicians were doing all sorts of different things that we're taking a little bit from one treatment program and a little bit from another treatment program. Um, and so what we, um, what we decided to do was looking at the literature that was available on Lidcombe and on other, um, preschool interventions that have some evidence behind them.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, we decided to try and well not try. We are creating our own, um, Aaron treatment program now. So it's still, um, it's still in the pipeline. It's still in the works with where we're slowly piecing together. Um, Uh, all the different parts of the process, but we're basically out plot is that we're trying to create a really simple treatment.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, both preschool children who start at we're trying to, um, we looked at all the available treatments that are available and my trying to create a new approach, a simplified approach to managing stuttering in the youngest age groups.

Elaina Kefalianos: Yeah, we made it. It's a big, big task, but it's an amazing group of researchers and I'm wearing lots of different hats. We've got, um, by-in-large speech pathologists, but, um, others that have got, um, a history in, um, in, um, Public health others from an education background, psychology background. So it's a really, um, a really diverse team bringing lots of wonderful minds to the process.

Elaina Kefalianos: So it's coming

Uri Schneider: along well, no less that come off as snarky. My, my comment as Elena knows, was good luck in the sense it's a busy space. Um, it's a challenging task. There are many that have tried before you, um, Yeah, the word you used earlier, that struck me when I was talking about these of language, you use the word manage and certainly in the U S there is an aversion, there's a, or there's either, there's a connotation with the use of that word, or there's even an aversion to using that word that teaching people to manage their stutter in and of itself is like adding, adding heat to the fire.

Uri Schneider: You know, in other words, a person who stutters. If they now have to deal with stuttering, but also the layer of am I managing it the way I'm supposed to? Am I managing it the way I think I want to, it's almost like I'm upset that I'm upset when I got to levels. You got to sort out. So I know for example, Vivian Siskin and others talk about that, that even any kind of mindful suppression or management of starting.

Uri Schneider: So I'm just wondering from a linguistic sensitivity point of view, what do you mean when you say managing. So

Elaina Kefalianos: I think that's more of an umbrella, so I completely take your point. And in fact, as soon as he said that, it put me back to the question you asked me about what I've learned as the partner of somebody who's done.

Elaina Kefalianos: So I'll circle back to that in a second. But I think when I say that word, um, I use it at quite a superficial level, actually. So I'm more just talking about, um, intervention approaches to tooth stuttering. And so. When I'm thinking about management. Normally, actually, when I talk about treatment and support options at different, I use different words at different ages.

Elaina Kefalianos: So, and again, that's probably a reflection of my training and. The different programs that I've, that have been taught to you. So if I'm looking at fluency therapy for a preschool child, the sorts of words that are more commonly used, things like reducing or eliminating starring, whereas the really key point.

Elaina Kefalianos: And in fact, another driver for all the work with it say is doing, is that I remember rich saying to me that the treatments that are available, the prolonged spacious mood speech, too. Think about managing your stuttering to take on a different way of talking so that you can control the stuttering or that you can speak fluidly, however you'd want to work.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, he, he gave me a really, really insightful way of thinking about it and that was, I don't want to, I don't want to change the way that I'm talking. I don't want to change my voice. Just so that I end up having to think about my speech in a different way. I don't want to think about how I'm talking. I just want to enjoy the conversation for what it is and to have to change my voice and change my speech for the sake of being more fluent does not appeal to me at all.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, and, and when he said that it really, really took me aback because, um, I must admit that up until that point I had been, I was certainly aware of and advocated for people getting support for addressing their anxiety, let's say, but in terms of looking at that communication experience, I was much more focused on the functional communication in terms of, are they able to.

Elaina Kefalianos: Say a sentence. I hadn't, I was not doing as well with thinking about when they're saying that sentence, are they enjoying that communication exchange? Are they, um, is it a positive experience for them? And I, and I feel like I was really failing, um, As an individual, as a clinician to be thinking about it in arguably the most important way that there is.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, so I take your point on that and you're probably not going to hear me say, manage stuttering again after this conversation.

Uri Schneider: Thank you. I think, I think, I think that OSA and I even talked about it, but I think it's interesting when we have, again, it can mean something, as you said, much more superficial and you didn't intend the meaning that I was using, but I think that's a.

Uri Schneider: A challenge or failure in our field. Ironically, we are speech language pathologists. We are communication experts. And yet we have so many words that we don't understand what each other are talking about or your use of that word is not my use of that word, which is why, and, and call me out on it. Others, if you're listening, whatever they'll notice in all of our materials, we don't use any of the traditional words.

Uri Schneider: We don't use the words of a fluency shaping stuttering modification. That is not a disrespect. So the pillars of our field, to the researchers and developers of the best wisdom that we have, but it is to suggest that those sometimes get us stuck. People have had experiences with such and such, and it's like, Oh no, no.

Uri Schneider: Oh, camp say it's one of those like acceptance places. No, thank you. Because someone tried to push acceptance on them and to them, acceptance is something foreign, uncomfortable, and being put into the deep end of the pool before they're ready. And for someone else they've had experiences with. Managing their stutter or traditional speech therapy techniques that deal with empowering people to find, okay, this is my car.

Uri Schneider: This is my transmission. This is what happens. If I want to drive and get stuck a little less dramatically or a little less often, are there things that I could learn that actually make a difference? Oh, sure. But if you tell me that word that I learned about, you know, contours or, you know, airflow. Oh my gosh.

Uri Schneider: Like that brings up some memory, some experience that I am totally disinterested. Um, so I think it's also relevant. It goes back to the single story as well, because so many people we meet in the journey have been places. And if we say something that triggers a past experience, we can unintentionally, you know, trigger something.

Uri Schneider: So I think being thoughtful about that. So I just think the word management, at least from North American mind, I'm just sharing with you. It just right away jumped at me. And I know that's not what you meant, which is why I wanted to air it out, which brings me to my next thought. I had this thought as I'm sitting with you, you ready for this?

Uri Schneider: But I'm going to ask you to be honest. I'm brutally honest. Okay. Americans, when they hear British people talk with a British accent immediately, the person's IQ goes up by about 15 points. They could be. The most, no, no, don't worry. It's going to be very easy and you can pass if you want. Um, British accents to Americans is like a sign of sophistication and intelligence.

Uri Schneider: Australian accents are like gnarly. Like I just think it's totally cool. Totally. Okay. And I'm not projecting that on you, but I'm offering the other way. When you hear Americans, are there, are there stereotypical associations with that as an Australia?

Elaina Kefalianos: Oh, I would say yes. Um, I would say the first, the first impression that your acting gives is one of competence.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, self-assuredness um, and overwhelming positivity. I always find when I hear the American accent, you always sounds so positive and so upbeat and so passionate about whatever you're saying. Even if it's something like all that garbage smelled really strong, everything,

Uri Schneider: it was beautiful. And I'm cringing as much as you were cringing at what I associate with Australians.

Uri Schneider: And certainly I have British friends who would wish to be distinguished from their less intelligent British friends, because intelligence is not about the accent. So I'm just, I'm highlighting this now. One more example, let's be honest. Are you a fan of Vegemite?

Elaina Kefalianos: You said, bring your own Vegemite. So I did

Uri Schneider: you follow directions?

Uri Schneider: Beautiful. Now has that, if anyone here has your Vegemite, give this a, like, if the grosses you out, give it some gross out. We need like some reaction for that. Do you actually eat that? Or you bought it specially for product placement.

Uri Schneider: What feelings come up when you eat Vegemite? Like what's that sensation that comes through? What do you associate with Vegemite? Oh, what do I

Elaina Kefalianos: associate with veggie? Mine? It's kind of oddly like a company

Uri Schneider: feeling for comfort. Yeah. I was thinking you were going to say that comfort because if I know some Australians, many, you like grew up, like that was your like schmear on bread.

Uri Schneider: Like as a kid going to school, it was like a mommy made me some, some Vegemite on that bread. Oh. And so like eating it now. It's like, I'm back. In that comfort of that experience. It's like a grounding. Yeah. Now, if you don't know what Vegemite is, go to any YouTube video, like look up kids eating Vegemite for the first time and you will find out without even eating it that if you're not daring, you're not touching that thing.

Uri Schneider: What is Vegemite? What is Vegemite? Let's get down to it.

Uri Schneider: Yeah. It's like you, you, you make bread with yeast then whatever, like, didn't go right. You put into Vegemite. It's like yeast gone wild, but it's got that oomph. It gives you comfort, but here's my point. It is what it is. Right. And yet you, it elicits a feeling of comfort and familiarity and soothing and, uh, an attraction to it.

Uri Schneider: And for others, just the knowledge of it or the scent of it, or the taste of it. Even if they get past all the associations, they try it. Many people will be like, are they going to want to vomit? Right. So I think that's fascinating. And we tolerate that. We don't say bedroom. Here's where I'm going. I think you haven't figured it out.

Uri Schneider: Vegemite is what it is. And yet some people have an amazing attraction and feel like. Get me the big tub. I want the, I want the two kilos tub and other people are like, no way. If I know that's been like that, touch the knife before I use the washed knife for my peanut butter. I'm not touching. I want a fresh knife, English accents, American accent, the Shannon accents.

Uri Schneider: People have all kinds of associations, but they're all okay. They are what they are. What you say about stuttering. As just something along a continuum as compared to something that is a disorder or that is something that in and of itself, it is an impairment. It is something wrong. I think that's a conversation of the day.

Uri Schneider: And I would love to just hear your perspective if you want to go.

Elaina Kefalianos: And just to be clear. So you're asking me where I think it fits in terms of all the different options you've just given.

Uri Schneider: No, you don't have to fit into my options. I'm just saying. Some people look at stuttering, classically as a disorder in and of itself, the medical model dictates that fluent speech sounds like this fluent speech can have this many disfluencies, but it's still called fluent speech.

Uri Schneider: And if you have this, we measure that. And as such, it is outside the pale of what is considered fluent and okay. And it mandates a certain type of attitude and approach. So it's a provocative conversation that I think is more nuanced than just black or white, but I was just kind of lead into it. But the idea that there are many things that people can have strong feelings about or feeling of that's different.

Uri Schneider: That's very, that accent is not what I'm used to. And then there's the feeling of like, what's not okay. So I just was like tossing that out there to see if you had a reflection on it. You don't have to frame it the way I did.

Elaina Kefalianos: Yeah. Um, no, I think, again, this is largely drawing on my training and certainly in Australia, because I know, again, this was something that I had assumed would be the same everywhere.

Elaina Kefalianos: Um, but I have learned that it's not the case. Um, in Australia, it is classified as a disability. It is classified as a disorder. Um, and. I think that, and I can appreciate that there are lots of different perspectives and lots of different feelings and, um, reactions toward that. Um, but it, it is such a complicated area to the, to the extent of, like you said before you spoke about this continuum, there is still.

Elaina Kefalianos: No single definition for stuttering. And in fact, I've been having this conversation with my Norwegian colleagues recently, that there is no single definition for exactly the point that you're touching on here is that nobody can come to an agreement about exactly what stuttering is. Um, and, and where, if at all this line lies where, because everybody has disfluencies in their speech.

Elaina Kefalianos: And trying to, trying to define, trying to describe where those behaviors stopped being, um, typical behaviors and stop being atypical behaviors. If you like. Um, anyone's managed to, to really, um, to do that, um, yet. So that's a really, I know that that's kind of a really loose fluffy answer for you, but I think it actually probably reflects my head space a little bit, which is that.

Elaina Kefalianos: It's still quite a messy area and no, one's really, I know people are trying to work really hard at trying to define it. Um, conferences that comes up all the time, but, um, I think there's a huge, huge amount of work to do in, in teasing all that

Uri Schneider: out. Elena, all of us should be as passionate. And articulate at midnight as you are right now.

Uri Schneider: It was lovely. And I think the tenderness of it is the whole point. And I think he brought it out beautifully that as sophisticated and as active as you are on the research side, um, and this is your life work and this is your life. Um, at the same time, we don't have a definition of stuttering. I think that if I had to say, what is stuttering taught me, it's taught me to be humble.

Uri Schneider: I went to the engagement party, the young man, I met less than a year ago. And I kid you not, he was crawling on the floor because somebody thought that this was an approach called one brain connect the right hemisphere to less hemisphere. Maybe the reason he's stuttering is because he didn't spend enough time crawling.

Uri Schneider: And the crawling activity makes that interconnectivity between the Corpus callosum. So he was told to crawl for 15 minutes a day as an 18 year old boy, 15 minutes a day. And he did it for two months. That's how much his stuttering was ruining his knife, his life. He was crawling on the floor a year later.

Uri Schneider: I haven't seen him in six months, but a year later, and there's not a Testament to me, but it's Testament to what stuttering is about and the power of it and how it can really wreck a person's life from the inside out and what it can do for you when you find a way to relate to it, the way to deal with it, a way to grow through it.

Uri Schneider: And that can include both physical and non-physical, you know, work and change. So I go to his engagement party and his brothers says to me, so what's the trick. What's the trick. I said, well, listen, you got, cause then he wanted to become a therapist. He was so inspired by his brother's journey. He wants to become a therapist.

Uri Schneider: So I said, listen, get training because your training and your credentials provide you with direction and decision-making intelligence that you otherwise, you're a quack. You don't know what you're doing. You're a pseudo professional. You need training and experience to guide you. The also needs to be very humble.

Uri Schneider: And you need to know that you can't fix and you can't do for someone else. They've got to find their way inside of them is the solution waiting to be tapped. You're a guide in the journey and your job is to kind of find a way to ignite that next person, to find their own way and be their own best help.

Uri Schneider: And whether you believe in God or whatever, your higher power or whatever you think of the people when you meditate and when you pray, he said, really? I said, absolutely. Absolutely because stuttering humbles all of us and it's bigger than you or me or the person who stutters or the parents. So if I could leave off with this message where I start off, when I meet young people, maybe you can incorporate this into what you're developing for preschool kids.

Uri Schneider: I tell the parents say plan B, plan a. We know there are things that we can do that can make sure that things that would interrupt natural development and progress. People do like telling kids, hold up, take a deep breath. They mean well, but that could actually make it a stickier situation. Short-term and long-term.

Uri Schneider: So there are things we can do that can remove that type of knee jerk response. There are also things we can introduce, like special time with the child, which is a pretty common thread through many preschool approaches that can increase the odds of things developing in the end of the day, you might do all those things and we don't end up going down.

Uri Schneider: Plan a, we go down plan B and plan B. The child continues to stutter. We don't know. And it's not because of the therapist you choose as not because of you and what homework you did or didn't do. And it's not because your child's lazy or defiant or has other issues. It's just like that. That's how stuttering is.

Uri Schneider: I listened to Chris, he said today, a beautiful line. He said, you know what? Stuttering is, stuttering is that thing that never behaves the way you want it to behave. And that's so true for us as therapists as well. So we partner with people. I think I speak for myself. You can. If you're in, but I think we want to partner with people with humility, with intelligence and the best research and the best practice and the best stories that inform us.

Uri Schneider: But we've never met this person. And if you're a parent of a child, no one has ever been a parent to that child. You are the expert. As much as you feel totally inept. So find partners that want to partner with you, but not hijack and find partners that are going to give you a multiplicity of options, not a single story.

Uri Schneider: And if they speak in British accents or Australian accents or American accents, Have mercy, you know, and maybe try some Vegemite, even when you think it's the wrong thing. Cause maybe you like it. You know, you got to try things outside your comfort zone. This has been delicious far better than Vegemite. I want to thank you Elena, and wish you good night.

Uri Schneider: Do you have any closing thoughts that you want to take us home with?

Elaina Kefalianos: I've absolutely. Um, absolutely loved talking to you. It's absolutely why it does not feel like midnight here at all. Um, but I just wanted to really say a big thank you to you for all of the work that you do. And, um, And yet you and your father made an incredible contribution to the world of stuttering.

Elaina Kefalianos: And this podcast is amazing. The speakers that you've got on it. So the, the, the knowledge you're sharing, the enthusiasm, the passion, the love that you have for it, um, you know, you, I I've got no doubt that person, like I spoke about superblock before. I can only imagine how many people would talk about he was there as their person.

Elaina Kefalianos: That's made them fall in love with theater as well. So thank you for everything that you do for the us and for the world of stuttering.

Uri Schneider: Just passing the candle along. And the podcast is not, the podcast is not a soliloquy, so it wouldn't be the same without people like you and all of my other guests. So I just want to thank you for taking the time and thank rich for covering things on the other side and think rich, if you haven't heard Rich's interview, it was actually one of my favorites and he says he never remembers telling his story in that depth and that length.

Uri Schneider: So I encourage you to check it out on the transcending stuttering podcast and just tap into everything that Alaina and Richard doing. It's just amazing things and it takes a village. So we're all in this together. Thank you. Absolutely. All the best next week. Next week we got Jonty clay, Paul and his new book.

Uri Schneider: Yeah. Oh man. When words fail us words, fail us is the name of the book. John D Claypool from England. He's an artistic director of the BBC and his book is quite a piece. It's a real, a tourism, you know, something. So I want to just invite everybody. That's going to be on Tuesday. Cause next Thursday, I've got a holiday observance, but I just want to thank everybody.

Uri Schneider: You can check out more@schneiderspeech.com slash our blog. You can see videos of all the past episodes and check out the transcending starting podcast. You can download it anywhere and subscribe and feedback. It's great. Thanks everybody. Have an awesome day. And stay safe and stay warm wherever you are.