BIO

Derek E. Daniels, Ph.D., CCC-SLP, is an associate professor in the Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at Wayne State University, where he teaches undergraduate and graduate courses. He has been a certified speech-language pathologist since 2002. Derek is a person who stutters, provides clinical services for people who stutter, and supervises graduate student training in stuttering. He has participated in many self-help events, workshops, and clinical training programs for people who stutter, including Camp Shout Out. Derek's research focuses on public perceptions of people who stutter, identity construction, psychosocial experiences, and intersectionality. He is the current President-Elect of the Michigan Speech, Language, and Hearing Association.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

0:00 - 18:32 Intro

18:32 - 21:52 Coping Cards

30:55 - 44:23 What Do You Do for Easing a Child’s Anxiety in the Classroom

44:23 - 1:02:24 Personal Professional and Leadership Thoughts on Being a Black Man in the Profession

RESOURCE LIST

Derek Daniels’ Research Profile

Camp Shout Out

Camp Shout Out Video

ISAD A Life of Contradictions: What I’ve Learned About Resilience from Living with Multiple Marginalized Identities – Derek Daniels

Upcoming events

MORE QUOTES

If I go back and reflect on all of the experiences I've ever had where I felt stuck, stuttering or not, there was always a way out. That life lesson can be passed on to people who stutter. Even though you may feel stuck, whether it's physically or whether it's socially, you're never stuck. There's always a way out. - Derek Daniels

TRANSCRIPTION:

uri schneider: Good morning again. So for my, uh, for my total pleasure this morning for a second conversation, let me tell you something about our guests today. So, first of all, my name is Marie Schneider. I lead at Schneider speech. We do have an amazing air pods giveaway. If anyone wants to win a free pair of AirPods, it is the non-denominational holiday season, or however you.

uri schneider: Experience these days, but it's a giving time and everybody's looking for a new gadget, right? So we're giving away AirPod pros. This might be the conversation. You find a highlight. We're looking for people just to share a highlight from these conversations over this year of conversations, uh, to bring out something we can all share at the end of the year, a highlight reel share a highlight from this conversation.

uri schneider: We'll enter you into where, when a free pair of AirPods, just go to our blog page. Schneider speech.com/blog/contest. That's it. I'll leave it there. And with that, I'll just share that Derek Daniels, Dr. Derek Daniels, I'll do the formal intro, but let me also say this. When I would go to a conference. There were many people I would enjoy, you know, picking their brain.

uri schneider: We often would have breakouts and, uh, all of us kind of look around the room and let's be honest. There were certain people you want it to be in their breakout. And there were certain people you were like, I hope that guy's not my breakout session. Derek Daniels was the guy that I wanted to be in his breakout session because Derek Daniels would add a level of insight.

uri schneider: Of wisdom. And like I wrote in the description, I really feel he is the embodiment of this very subtle blend of, um, a very intuitive and pathic tuned in human being. While at the same time he asks you the challenging questions that you didn't think of because you didn't think it through long enough, or you didn't know about that research or you didn't go to that other workshop.

uri schneider: The man is, is incredibly well-informed. He's moving things forward with his own research, which hopefully we'll be able to hear a bit about. And he's also the president elect of our professional organization in Michigan. It is a tremendous privilege. I'm going to skip the formal intro. You can read the bio for that.

uri schneider: Let's get right to getting in real, uh, it's a tremendous privilege to have dr. Derek Daniels, John Gomez calls him double D and his alter ego at camp. Shout out. And, uh, so thanks for taking the time to join us, Derek. Thank you. Thank

derek daniels: you. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. I'm just overwhelmed. Um, and yes, I really th the feelings are mutual.

derek daniels: You're someone who I always enjoy talking to. We've met twice at the national center and associations, uh, annual conference, and we've been able to speak, but not enough, not as much as I would like to. So I'm glad that we're able to have this conversation.

uri schneider: Well, I, I kind of invited you to have that excuse and I was so happy we had, uh, was like a, let's get on the call for five minutes before this, you know, that a month ago.

uri schneider: And it turns into like what two and a half hours, and someone was pulling me off the phone or something like that. So yeah, it's always a privilege and a pleasure, and this is just an excuse and we gotta make more excuses.

derek daniels: Absolutely. We do.

uri schneider: So, what would you like to share? What do you think would be interesting that people, uh, that you'd be proud to share or interested in sharing about, about your journey and what makes you, who you are, how you tick and what makes you tick?

derek daniels: Well, I think, um, my journey as a person who stutters is probably like a lot of people's journeys as people who stutter, you know, I've had those classic experiences of not. You know, being, trying to say something and not being able to say it, like I want to and feeling embarrassed about it and you know, and for me, I think, um, I really didn't have a whole lot of knowledge about stuttering.

derek daniels: It was something that I did as early as I can remember. Talking has always been difficult for me. And I didn't have any knowledge about stuttering. I didn't know anything about the field of speech, language pathology. So a lot of my growing up years were with regards to stuttering or about. Trying to navigate something.

derek daniels: Um, that's pretty difficult. And actually, um, I made some notes here that. Um, I think when I think about my stuttering, it was really sort of a metaphor for my life in general, because my think about stuttering, um, and trying to talk, it sort of, I came up with sort of three different ways of how I sort of dealt with that.

derek daniels: Number one is just going ahead and struggling through it, um, at the risk of judgment from other people, um, Altering what I want to say so that it appeared to be acceptable and then just keeping it inside and not saying anything so that no one knew. And even though those three sort of choices were around stuttering, I think they became a metaphor for my life in general, you know, struggling and being open with something at the risk of judgment, um, altering yourself so that it appears acceptable.

derek daniels: And then just keeping something inside. Um, so then the no one knows. So I think my journey throughout life has just been about that. Um, although, um, you know, I was born and raised in Houston, Texas. I went to good schools. I always make good grades. Um, but it was just this feeling.

uri schneider: Yeah. So Scott was very interested to know if you consider, and if you identify your identity as more of a Houstonian, Or, or from Michigan who was interested in that,

derek daniels: I am a Houstonian at heart, for sure.

derek daniels: I was born and raised in Houston and I am definitely a Houstonian. I'm a Michigander too. I live in Detroit and I love Detroit, but certainly I am a Houstonian. All things Houston. Yes, Doug. Yeah, Doug's a good friend of mine. We met in Houston and we are good friends to this day, but, you know, it's just think that's just my journey.

derek daniels: And I really didn't. Um, I was a very attentive person, very internal person. And, um, I didn't really find out about the field of speech pathology until I was, um, probably I think a junior in college. And then, so I had to, you know, um, switch my major and, um, you know, I found out about it then, but. I think my journey throughout life as a life, a lot, like most people's journeys as people who started in terms of just not being able to, I didn't have speech therapy at all.

derek daniels: So the only therapy I ever had for stuttering was when I was a client for a graduate student when I was in my post bachelor's program. So in that sense, I think my experience is probably a little bit different than most people's experiences. Oh,

uri schneider: that's interesting. And what a wonderful segue into your contributions to literature, we talked on the call.

uri schneider: You said your experience wasn't that different than anyone else's, but I know you're interested in looking at does the culture, that one is living in impact the experience that one has or within oneself, the way they engage that process, or maybe from the people around you and the way their perceptions of stuttering might be different based on cultural beliefs, attitudes, and values.

uri schneider: Would you like to share a little bit about what you've discovered and why that's relevant?

derek daniels: Yeah. And I think what I'll say about that is that that is really important to me. I was a sociology major when I was in college as an undergraduate student. So sociology taught me a lot about the world and how the world works.

derek daniels: And so I became really, really curious about those issues when I was in college. But also what I will say is, you know, growing up as a person who stutters and then, uh, growing up as a black man, And then, you know, I have other parts of my identity, um, that are important, that I'm not that I don't necessarily talk as openly about, but are, are very, um, um, I think they shaped how I see the world.

derek daniels: I just always wonder, does anyone else experience. What I experience. And so my personal journey, coupled with my undergraduate degree in sociology really made me curious about culture. And there's a really nice quote about culture, um, and about identity. Um, it's by Beverly Daniel Tatum, she's the author of a book called why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?

derek daniels: And one quote that she says is when she talking about identity, she says, um, who am I? The answer depends in large part on who the world around me says I am. Who do my parents say to say that I am, who do my peers say that I am? What message is reflected back to me in the voices of my neighbors, my teachers store clerks.

derek daniels: What do I learn from the media about myself? How am I represented in the cultural images around me? Or am I missing from the picture altogether? I can't believe I've said that from memory. So I was just sort of dived right into that research. And, um, my early research looked at the experiences of African-American men who stuttered.

derek daniels: It was one of the first projects that I did. So I interviewed six, um, African-American men about their experiences with . And there was lots of, um, individual variation in their stories, but a lot of them talked about the fact, um, of being stigmatized as a black man. And, um, how that coupled with being stigmatized as a person who stutters, you know, one participant talked a lot about how, um, and his particular culture in his particular community.

derek daniels: Um, stuttering instead of an openly was not something that was, um, very accepted. So he tried his best to, um, to hide his stuttering as much as possible when he was around certain people and in certain cultures and communities. But I think when it comes to culture, um, I think it's really difficult to sort of say that, um, All people within a culture experience, stuttering this way.

derek daniels: I think there's a lot of individual variation with how people experience culture. But I think, um, what you take in from your environment in terms of beliefs and attitudes, I think can affect, um, how you view, how you view yourself and how you view your rank. So that really interested me and these individual experiences that people who start are, have based on their culture.

uri schneider: That's really interesting. Interested. If you could dive deeper into those six people that you did those interviews with, or other observations in terms of, are there things that seem to be tightly correlated and then others that seem to have more variability even within one culture? Meaning how much of it seems to be disjointed?

uri schneider: From that cultural identity or cultural experience and what things seem to be very strongly influenced by that different dimensions

uri schneider: or different angles. You know what I mean? Yeah.

derek daniels: I think I know what you mean. I think, um, now just with the six participants is really hard to, uh, to, to generalize, I think just in general, um, Stigma was I think a really, um, big theme that was probably, um, highly correlated, um, that I would say, um, with the participants that I interviewed the idea of being, um, being stigmatized.

derek daniels: And I think what I will go back to with that is, you know, you and I had a conversation and you said something that really stuck with me. And I think it's very relevant here is, um, to what extent. Is there a space for difference when you're growing up and the extent to which people feel like there's little room for difference, it makes a big difference in how they view themselves and their stuttering.

derek daniels: And I think for the people I talked to, there was a very little space for difference when it came to us. So that was probably a very common thing that I, um, Um, have observed and the more space there is for difference, the more people, um, are able to sort of explore and accept, um, their stuttering and actually, um, came up with the solar, um, illustration about that is, um, literally if you're in an elevator, there's very little room to move around.

derek daniels: You're very confined. Whereas, you know, if you've ever seen the movie, the sound of music and, uh, Julie Andrews is out there in the field and she's moving around very freely. There's a lot of room for difference. So that's on a literal level. So I think on a metaphorical level, many people, you know, we all have our elevator moments where we don't feel like there's a big space for difference.

derek daniels: And we have our open field moments where there's a lot of. The space for difference and a lot of room to move around. So I think for the people that I talk to there seem to be a lot of those Ello there's those elevator moments, little space for difference.

uri schneider: That is such a profound image. I think if we think about that, you know, I shared something earlier this week, a little, little more big reveal that, uh, occasionally I would take appointments in one of the offices, but similar to my dad, I liked the outdoors and David Shapiro, one of our colleagues, goats, greatest of all times, uh, you know, talks about taking walks with his therapist.

uri schneider: Now, certainly one has to think about the responsibility and when it can't. You have to be very responsible with the ethics and the regulations of everything involved in this, but certainly where it's possible. And certainly if it's an adult having a meeting outside the office can be a great thing. So I would, I would have some of my meetings with people running around central park.

uri schneider: And one of the things I think about central park is it's kind of like Julie Andrews field situated right in the middle of the elevator. So I think. I think sometimes we have this idea, Oh, I'll relax. When I go on vacation this summer. Right. Oh, I'm waiting for the weekend because that's when I can breathe.

uri schneider: And I think that it's so important that I'm thinking of the conversation I had with Michael Sugarman importance of finding ways to do good. Self-care yeah. Not letting the circumstances kind of dictate what we believe we're capable of, but certainly acknowledging. And having the allies around us, acknowledging what are the constraints with which we are moving our ball forward.

uri schneider: And at times we need a little bit, a little bit of help from our friends and that's, that's something we should all be open to is mentorship, peer support guidance. These are some things I'm obsessed with lately. And I think are incidentally baked into our work and into the community. But I'm looking at ways in 2021 to.

uri schneider: To create more of that, where people kind of come in an early stage in the journey and very quickly have the opportunity to give support to those that are just a few steps behind, right? And as they keep going forward emerging as those mentors and eventually some as, as leaders, people like yourself, people who stutter, who then go into this field, there's certainly heroes in my eye, not everywhere in the world.

uri schneider: Does a person who stutter a person who stutters welcome into the profession dedicated to. Treating the condition and people living with stuttering. Um, so that's part of something. That's also a celebration and something quite impressive. I think if I had a stutter, I don't think I would become a speech pathologist, speech, language pathologist.

uri schneider: I don't think I would have it in me. I think it takes a certain amount of putting yourself out there and courage. But back to my other point, I think it's so important that wherever we find ourselves or if we are in a position to provide others, creating that space, not just a safe space. Right, but a, um, a space to breathe to be, even when it feels like, or you're literally in an elevator having the tools to do that, to create little micro vacations.

uri schneider: So whether it's stepping out of the office or for parents spending a few quality minutes with each child, or if not every day, every week, uh, for ourselves not to be on zoom calls from nine to five, if it only means we can carve little five minutes. Cherish protect, carved those five minutes that you literally put your face out the window, even if it's negative.

uri schneider: I dunno what Michigan or whether, um, what are your thoughts about how to create that space and that Julie Andrews image in the midst of a world where we feel so unnatural and sometimes so confined and pressed by either things in our life or just the technology and work demands, school demands. What are some, any wisdom, personal professional?

uri schneider: You know,

derek daniels: I love that, you know, sometimes for me, it's, it's just turning off the news, turning off the TV. I mean, early on in March and April, you know, I had to just turn and I'm definitely wanting to be informed of what's going on, but there are times where I just have to turn the TV off or just switch the channel and turn to a channel that I love to watch.

derek daniels: I love to watch eighties old eighties TV shows. I love to watch the cooking channels. So I would either watch something different or just say, I'm going to just, you know, watch this much of the news.

uri schneider: I'm a sucker for growing pains. What about you?

derek daniels: Oh, my pains. Give me a break. Nail Carter, two to seven Jeffersons.

derek daniels: All those shows.

uri schneider: If you don't know what we're talking about, Google it, whatever. It's gotta be somewhere. Where do you, where do you consume this? Can you tell people your secret? Where can you get access to these sitcoms?

derek daniels: Yes, uh, antenna TV, if the antenna TV channel, if you have that. And I just, just discovered there is a channel called decades.

derek daniels: So one of those two channels, or just go to YouTube.

uri schneider: That's great. So if you're not watching stuttering, documentaries or reading journal research, that's where to go. Um, nothing about the media, nothing about politics, but it, you know, there there's, there's a lot of repetition of news. That's not that exciting.

uri schneider: Um, Who was that guy that was doing some really cool news program, like the good news network. Um, Emily blends husband, what's his name? John Krasinski, right from the office. So I did a little thing on YouTube and then he stopped because it's exhausting. But specifically when everything was so overwhelming.

uri schneider: Yeah. He started a thing. I think it was called the good news network. If you know what it was put in the comments. But it was awesome and it's still relevant. You can go watch it. He just asked kids to submit stories and, and just share like little bright moments. For example, when the whole community decided we're going to drive by the nursing home, where all the people are kind of in quarantine and we're going to beep loud and we're going to lean out the window and in a socially distance safe way, bring a little bit of cheer and let them know we care.

uri schneider: Let we let them know. We see them. Um, So for you, it's eighties television. Um, but from the research not, but, and from your research, let's say we're thinking about, um, a black young man who stutters, and let's say we're a parent, a teacher, an ally. Are there any messages or any actions that you would suggest that those of us who might be in that position of teacher, a parent.

uri schneider: A friend, a neighbor, uh, that would maybe be appreciated and maybe it'd be supportive and helpful. And at the same time, not, not stepping in where we're not welcome or assuming that they're interested in X, Y, or Z in a way that would kind of overtake. Their dignity and their space. Yeah.

derek daniels: I think it's all about the individual experience set that the person has.

derek daniels: So I like to talk about it a lot from, um, in insight out approach, as opposed to an outside and approach. So an outside in approach is basically, um, saying, you know, this person is X, Y, or Z. So therefore I have to do X, Y, and Z. And inside out approach is, let me talk to this individual. And let me see what's important and what's relevant to them.

derek daniels: And then I'll know if X, Y, or Z might be appropriate because again, there's always variation within, um, in a group of people. So, um, you know, I think, uh, representation is important. I think talking about, uh, Interests are important. So, you know, if the family, if they have, you know, um, myths about stuttering, you know, that are not true or not accurate, it's maybe important to have a discussion about that.

derek daniels: Um, you know, depending on family interactions and family dynamics and having conversations around stuttering, you know, Some families don't have any conversations around stuttering because maybe they don't know how to, that might be inappropriate to facilitate if that's an issue. But I like to really just get to know my clients on an individual level and sort of let.

derek daniels: Their interests and their cultural experiences emerge from what they tell me. So I guess it really all depends on what the person in front of me is talking to me about. But I think in treatment, I like to always include, um, or always make space for conversations. I was working, you know, this semester with, um, a client he's, um, 10 years old and.

derek daniels: It just warms my heart to see him smile because he struggles a lot with the stuttering. And we were just talking about, um, you know, Um, who his best friend is. And then he has all of these different, like, um, video shows on YouTube. They love to watch. And just seeing him talk about that, even though he was stuttering a lot, it just warmed my heart just to see him smile.

derek daniels: So I always liked to make space in the therapy session for clients to be able to just talk about, um, what makes them happy. Um, sometimes we do coping cards where there's, and I got this idea from, uh, Lisa Scott. Um, who has since passed on, but, um, we just take these index cards and on the front of each index card, we, um, write a situation that's tough or a situation that's difficult.

derek daniels: And then on the back of the index card, we write, um, things that make us happy. So if I'm experiencing, you know, Um, sadness over not being able to say something, you know, what can I do in that moment to make myself happy, flip the card over? You know, I can watch a favorite TV show or I can read a book or, you know, whatever the clients tell me, but it actually works for the client.

derek daniels: You know, he was able to take that card out and flip, flip it over and do something for five or 10 minutes that they made them happy. And that sort of diffused that moment. That just happened.

uri schneider: I'm seeing lots of comments. You've got lots of fans. We've got like more engagement than usual. It's like 30 people with us right now live.

uri schneider: And I have no doubt, many more will be enjoying this conversation. So just to point out, you can see this conversation and all the conversations they're all on Schneider speech.com/our blog. I'll just reiterate free air pod giveaway. Anybody that wants to get a free air pods. It's very simple. We want to give away free AirPods cause we need help.

uri schneider: And we want to co-create something together. If you hear anything in this conversation or any of the nearly 40 conversations that we'll have had by the end of 2020, we want to put together a highlight reel. So if you go over to our blog page, there's a post there and you can just get the details.

uri schneider: Basically, just give us a quote on the timestamp of which talk it happened in. And you're entered into the raffle, give us two you're entered in twice. It's a great opportunity to give, and it's a great opportunity to get. Um, I'm going to take some of those questions. So up your questions, pop your notes, comments.

uri schneider: There's a lot of love coming your way. Um, yeah. And I'll go there. Um, maybe while I collect those, but I was, I was going to ask you one of the questions that I'm fascinated by and you talked about. One of your first speech therapy experiences was with the grad student.

derek daniels: Yes. Um,

uri schneider: I was wondering if that was a watershed moment or if there was some something special in your journey that you credit as a turning point as something that was a breakthrough moment.

uri schneider: And if there was anyone or any experience, because I think it's helpful for others to learn about, well, what were those moments in someone else's life? Right. It adds complexity and. And a composition of, of all the different types of experiences for some it's excelling on the athletic field. And for others, it's embracing a creative pursuit for others.

uri schneider: It's creating, uh, a beautiful space of yoga and meditation for young kids could be a beautiful Lake to kind of, um, strengthen and creates wellness within a world. That's very chaotic and challenging. So I like to find out, and I'm always amazed at different things. If you had, you know, any such thing in your journey,

derek daniels: Yeah, it's something I have to think about a little bit, but one of the moments I think I can tell you about, for sure that comes to my mind was, um, now as, um, background, I wasn't really used to saying, I wasn't really used to talking about how I felt.

derek daniels: I really wasn't really used to saying, um, or discussing or talking about what I felt on the inside. So that was something that I wasn't used to, but I do remember when I was in the seventh grade. And this was computer literacy class and, you know, doing different parts, you know, on various days we would have to, he would, um, they were chapter terms at the end of the chapter and he would go around and have each person read the bull faced word and then leave the definition of the word.

derek daniels: And I always had a hard time because of my stuttering with that. And. My seventh grade teacher would often times, uh, in the barest me, um, about my stuttering. So I do remember that I was, um, I had three friends at the time and I wrote them a letter just talking about how embarrassing that was for me. And I don't even know why I did it.

derek daniels: I just did it. And the next day I remember one of my three friends came to me and she said, the next time. He does that to you. We going to stand up and tell him how wrong that was, how wrong that is. And I can not tell you. in my 13 year old body, how good that felt to know that someone else. Understood me and they would advocate on my behalf.

derek daniels: So that experience in the seventh grade really taught me a lot about advocacy. It taught me about being able to stand up for someone else, being able to be that safe space, that shoulder for someone else, that experience I even many years later, just even, I think just recently, um, I found this person on Facebook and just, and told her how much that experience meant to me, that moment of.

derek daniels: What they did or what she said to me, stayed with me all of these years. So I think that was probably a big turning point in terms of me feeling safe. Um, I think in my own therapy, I just had, um, a couple of months of therapy. Again, I was a client for grad student and a lot of what I did was just practice talking.

derek daniels: Um, even if it was even if it was in front of the empty room, I think just the idea of physically standing up. In a space. And even though there was no one in the room, or sometimes she bring in one or two people, just that act of doing that, I think did a lot for, um, my competence. Just being able to do something like that.

derek daniels: So that if anything, I think that gave me a lot of competence. Um,

uri schneider: what possessed you? Yes. What kind of I call those like, almost like crazy thoughts. I asked a young person in seventh grade. For example, I was doing a zoom call with this kid drew and I'm so excited just yesterday. I had in mind this lacrosse superstar who I'd worked with a year ago and he was on my mind as a mentor.

uri schneider: And then out of the blue, he emailed me, made the intro and now they're their mentor and mentee and mom's in the circle and it's a beautiful thing. But this kid drew, he was on the phone with me and he made a call to a bagel place. And the bagel place kind of. Very impatient, very busy. And they gave him a hard time and he got a bit stuck and he hung up the phone and it was the first time I saw Drew's face just kind of dropped like that.

uri schneider: And I said to true, you know, I see, you know, I get it. That must happen. Sometimes he said, yeah, is that I haven't seen that face before. I'm happy to be able to understand that. That's what it must be. Like. Sometimes you want to tell me more about that and we unpacked it a little bit, but then I said, well, What would you like to do when that happens?

uri schneider: You know? And he was like, Oh, I don't know. I'm like, okay, well, let's think of some crazy ideas. You can't punch him in the face. Cause he's not in front of you. Um, you know, but considering some out of the box ideas really gets them thinking. I think at Kristen Comella problem solving, you know, consider all the options, but he said I could give my mom the phone.

uri schneider: Uh, but he came up with all kinds of ideas. What you did, Derek. Is something I would maybe put out there once we had some rapport and kind of explored the more traditional ones. What in the world possessed you to reach out to those friends? Because that is such a gutsy, uh, big play, right? Most people. And there's someone here.

uri schneider: I just want to read you this question. I don't know them yet, but they say it's Jamie, Justin, or Justin. Oh yes. I know that. That is former students. So she she's from Allen park and she says, Hey, dr. Daniels, where's John would say double D also, Eric Raj, I'll just make a couple of quick shout outs, your whole, your whole camp.

uri schneider: Shout out. Is like totally shouting over everybody in the comments. We got Laura Shepherd, we got Eric Raj, we good. John Gomez. Of course. Doug Scott showed up. He wasn't sure he could. I knew he would. Uh, Nita's here. Tom is here. You demand director Derek, um, are Joshua Lawrence. Yes. Honored to work with you and stuttering clinic and lucky to have experienced working with people who stutter.

uri schneider: Thanks to you. Uh, Frederick man. Oh

derek daniels: yeah. From my face. Yep.

uri schneider: Naughty nickels, Natty nails. R D a R D

derek daniels: says, yes. I know a bad ass. My colleague Aaron Hardy Smith. Yes.

uri schneider: Ron Kelly. Wrong tele fond memories of times of come shout out. Yes. You looking great this morning. I agree. Uh,

derek daniels: that's an inside joke. I know that

uri schneider: Dale Robertson, Dale Robertson.

derek daniels: Yes.

uri schneider: So, uh, your student was asking, excuse me, one sec. Okay. Don't worry. I'm seeing the pulmonologist tomorrow long story, but it's not, COVID, it's an allergic cough. If you've been watching any of these conversations, you've been watching me coughing away. So she asked, what do you do for easing a child's anxiety in the classroom?

uri schneider: The kiddo doesn't really stutter when he's with me. But he says he has trouble in the classroom. So I wonder if you could tie that into this gutsy move that you did when you were a kid, what, what were you thinking? What possessed you to do such a gutsy thing? And what would you suggest in terms of what that might inform others?

uri schneider: Yeah,

derek daniels: you know, I think, um, I do a lot of, um, with kids, so, and for the question there at dues, um, Problem solving plans to something that I know, uh, Kristen, uh, Camilla has written about, um, in the school age attitudes book. So a problem solving point, and it's basically where you are taking a problem. And you sort of are talking about the different steps of the problems.

derek daniels: We do a lot of, uh, problem solving plans and talking things out with children. I think talking to, uh, the classroom teacher, you know, I think rather than having this all be on the child, you know, having discussions with the teacher about how to make the classroom a more sensitive. And more accepting. I just

uri schneider: want to highlight amplify that.

uri schneider: I think a lot of times we think of the person who is being bullied or the person who's having a hard time. Right. They need to be beefed up and they need to do X, Y, or Z, or they need to speak up for themselves. We have to recognize there are, you know, multiple stakeholders. And of course we want to empower individuals for do more for themselves, but especially young people.

uri schneider: And adults, we can't do everything on our own. And we deserve to think about there's no shame and there's no, it's not a cop-out to say, you know what, here's the measure I can bring to the game. And here's what I want, or I need to ask of the teacher and it can be accommodation on one hand and empowerment on the other.

uri schneider: And then ultimately we create more success. So I just want to amplify that distinction of what you were saying with the teacher. Yeah,

derek daniels: because I think a lot of times, you know, um, it's not, I mean, if we're talking about, I'm not sure how old this child is, but I'm assuming it's a school-age child. You know, if someone who is seven, eight, nine years old, that's a lot to put on a child.

derek daniels: It's a lot of. A lot of emotion for a child to experience. And so certainly we can talk to children and to help them talk through those difficult situations, but we should also be talking to the teacher and we should also be, you know, if possible or whenever possible, you know, talking to the whole class, you know, I know some schools have disability awareness weeks or, you know, however, however it's navigate it, but just, um, you know, the class discussions and also talking with the teacher to see how the classroom can be more.

derek daniels: Um, supportive for the person. So I think all of those things would be very, um, appropriate, but I think, um, for your earlier question, that's just something that I always, you know, that has stayed with me so long that. I just felt the need to just let her know what that did for me. You know, I'm a person anyway, who I'm just like that in general.

derek daniels: Like I've tracked down all of my elementary school classmates, you know, I just do that. I'm very, uh, I'm, I'm always thinking about people from my past, you know, I've found a lot of my elementary school teachers and told them how much of a difference it made to me to have them as my teacher. So I think just in general, that's kind of the person that I am, but it was really important for me to, um, To, to tell her how much that meant to me.

uri schneider: That's tremendous. I'm thinking, I'm just thinking of it. That that's so powerful. And it's so often, I mean, even today, someone told me already a story, something they did, they didn't think it was very influential. And then it comes back five years, 10 years later, how significant it was. And I think it's important to do what you did take your example because it.

uri schneider: It greases the wheels of that to happen more, you know, if more people find out that what they did made a difference, it had ripples, it touched someone's life. It had a ripple effect, you know, sliding doors effect, years down the road. You'll do more things because often we feel are our efforts kind of just get tossed out.

uri schneider: I guess today's news to know that we made a difference and then to let people know that. And then to be the difference ourselves for others. With that student. I just wanted to give a shout out. I'm sure Eric Raj would have some fantastic creative ideas. One thing I like to do is if there is a creative angle to play, they're either drawing comics of what, what happens in the classroom or using some digital.

uri schneider: Digitally facilitated, uh, comics. There were some wonderful things on the internet where you can, you can get the characters and just pull them into the box and you can create a comic strip. So they can actually express as, as Derek was saying how important it is just to air it out. It's a big load for a kid and they may have no one else to talk to about it.

uri schneider: And that, that time that you have with that child could be the moment I had one student. And I say student, not a student because he's working with us, but a student he's a ninth grader and the teacher to merited the fact that he wasn't participating verbally in class. It was important to her to verbal participation.

uri schneider: Right. And he was holding back because he was nervous. He would stutter. So he gets a phone call home. And his mom didn't know why he got the phone call and he's, he's on the consult. We're doing the consult on zoom. And he says, yeah, mom, didn't you get that call? And she says, Oh, that's what it was about. He says, yeah.

uri schneider: So I asked the kid, what did you do about it now? He was about as gutsy as you Derek, maybe, maybe even more you emailed or messaged or told your friends, right? Yeah. I did. This kid sent an email to the teacher without anyone's advice and he writes, dear Mrs. So-and-so, you know, I just want to let you know.

uri schneider: That you might notice that I don't raise my hand or participate as much. The reason is that I stutter and I'm nervous that if I talk, I might stutter and I would feel embarrassed. So I would appreciate if you would be understanding, you know, and we can figure out another way for me to earn my participation points.

uri schneider: Right.

derek daniels: I love it.

uri schneider: So I said, that's awesome, man. And he showed us the email on a screen share. I'm like, wow. His parents were like, wow. I was like, But he wasn't smiling. I said, what'd she write back? And he shows the response and it was something like this. It was like, well, Johnny exclamation point at the beginning of the year, you participated so beautifully.

uri schneider: I know you can do it, keep it up. I don't think this can stop you, you know? And also I want to move your seat to the front so I can see you better and hear more from you. Exclamation point, looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. So then we role played. I played him. I was like reading out his email and my associate, she read the teacher's response with, with dramatic effect.

uri schneider: And he was, he was the director, you know, he was giving us how to do this acting out thing. But basically I said, what'd you do after she wrote back, he said, I saw that she wasn't listening. So I just shut up. And that was so. Concerning and sad. And thankfully we've, we've, we've talked with him about how he wants to handle that.

uri schneider: What kind of Alliance he wants. But, but before we jump into anyone jumping in his parents or us to save him, we want to give him agency and courage and embolden him to push further. And in the end, that's happening. And we set him up with a mentor that went to the exact same high school. Who's a guy who stutters, who's gone on in life to couple up and has kids and has a business.

uri schneider: And, you know, just really achieving a lot that he wished to do. And he went to the same high school. So he could be a really good mentor for this kiddo. But, um, I think just to amplify with what Derek was saying, giving a space to kids, and I guess the biggest mistake I hear Derek is like, I don't hear you stuttering.

uri schneider: Let's not be so bad. Right. That would be the worst thing anyone could tell anybody.

derek daniels: I could

uri schneider: only makes up stuttering. Yeah. You get that. What do you want me to say about that?

derek daniels: Yeah. You know, I think because my stuttering, my stuttering has changed over time. Uh, my stuff.

uri schneider: Yeah. If you could, if you could talk about that.

uri schneider: Cause there was just a podcast on stutter talk kind of like. Exploring that, and my father and our team, you know, we've talked a lot about the longitudinal life lifespan perspective and it seems to be to my father. It's us, not as well told the story, but there's almost nobody that stutters the same when they were 20, when they're 40, when they're 50 or when they were 30, you don't see a change as dramatically from eight to 10.

uri schneider: Yeah, but there's a pretty common. So can you talk about how that's changed for you, what you were saying?

derek daniels: Yeah, actually, um, my dad, I love my dad, you know, he would, um, ADI, he, he, he made a cassette tapes of me when I was younger so that I can go back and listen to those, uh, cassette tapes. And I haven't listened to them in awhile, but I know my speech would be something like, um, like, uh,

uri schneider: I, I, I

derek daniels: want to do this.

derek daniels: You know, that will be in the, in the, in, in example. So when I was younger, my stuttering was a lot more, um, overt and I think I did whatever I could to try and hide my stutter. So I think part of that is, has to do with that. But I think just over time, you know, my stuttering just sorta changed. Um, and I, now I would probably say I go back and forth between mild and moderate.

derek daniels: But, you know, sometimes I tell people that I stutter, I do get that quite a bit. You know what? You don't start at that bad. Or, you know, I get that phrase a lot. You don't start that, but you don't start that much. Um, or you're still, I'm just not like this person's, it was really bad, you know, and I have to just sort of politely, you know, Sort of redirect the conversation about what, you know, stuttering is different for everybody, not everyone stutters the same, and it's not just about the behavior, that whole discussion, but that feedback I get quite a bit and I think it does minimize the experience of stuttering, uh, for the person.

derek daniels: Cause betterment, as we know is not just about the behavior, it's way much more than that. It's about the experience, um, that you have. With it. So that question, um, that comment, I get quite a bit from people, but yeah, my stuttering was a lot more overt when I was younger. And, um, I went through periods where I probably didn't stutter as much, but it definitely fluctuated over time.

derek daniels: Um,

uri schneider: there's a question based on Justine's response and that was, that was pure gold right there. There. Uh, Jamie, Jamie, Justin writes, she feels like she just got acknowledged by Beyonce. Thanks guys. Derek. Do you think it was you that she's thinking was Beyonce or me? I'm definitely not feeling the beat.

uri schneider: Definitely. That's

derek daniels: definitely an inside joke. Yeah. But my students know that I love Beyonce. So that's, that's what that references.

uri schneider: Got it. Got it. Put a ring on a baby. You got it. Um, it's fantastic.

derek daniels: And there was also another experience I wanted to talk to you about that was sort of, um, I think monumental for me, um, that I think might be helpful is, um, it was in my adult life.

derek daniels: It was probably four or five years ago. Um, course called professional issues in speech pathology. So the students meet with me the first week, um, of the last semester before they go to their internships. So I bring in a series of guest speakers. So one guest speaker came in and I wanted her to talk about contract companies like working for contract companies, what they are, you know, how they're different from other types of facilities.

derek daniels: And so, um, one of the students asked the speaker, what happens if you get stuck somewhere that you don't like, like, how would you navigate that? And the speaker said, um, first of all, I would say that you're never stuck. And then she began to answer the question, but I thought about what she said, first of all, I would say you'll never stuck.

derek daniels: And I thought about that. And if I go back and reflect on all of the experiences I've ever had stuttering or not, where I felt stuck. There was always a way out. And so that that's sort of a, like a life lesson, but also a lesson that I think we can pass on to people who started was that you never, you were, even though you may feel stuck, whether it's physically or whether it's socially, you're never stuck.

derek daniels: You know, there's always a way out. And so I, and I have, and I just found that particular person on Facebook not too long ago. So I will tell her, um, What she said and, um, how it impacted me, but I think that's also another turning point, um, is just that lesson of we're never stuck. Like we think we are.

uri schneider: Wow. What do you have to say about representation? And the complexion of our profession, uh, you're going to be stepping into the leadership of the Michigan, uh, you know, professional association of speech, language pathologists, the topic of, um, being tuned in to different experiences at different people in our country, different people in our States and our cities in our schools.

uri schneider: Uh, I just hope people continue to have the conversations that were had, and that you and I had when things were at their height. Of sensitivity and really coming to the forefront earlier this year in the States. But I want to keep that conversation going. And I was wondering if you had any personal professional and leadership thoughts on being a black man in the profession?

uri schneider: I mean, just to bring a little humor, just being a man in the profession, I am a minority, but, uh, but certainly in no way, similar to. The experience of people of color in our profession and in the country. So I just wonder if you could share anything on that. And then the intersectionality of that with also, you know, the identity of being a person who stutters.

derek daniels: Yeah. You know, I think, um, as soon as, you know, all those, um, terrible events were happening, uh, the Michigan speech language hearing association, we immediately put out a statement against racism. And what we immediately did was we, um, got together and we talked about it and we actually made a change in our bylaws and we add it cause because we didn't have it before we added, um, a diversity and inclusion.

uri schneider: Uh,

derek daniels: uh, committee. So we're not, we are not going to have a vice president for diversity and inclusion. And then that person, um, will lead a diversity and inclusion, uh, com committee made up of people who are, um, to diverse. And what we're going to do is we're going to address the needs. Of our membership, you know, what are we missing?

derek daniels: What are we not seeing? We want to bring in speakers to our conference, who can address cultural diversity and different topics. So I think this new vice-president of diversity and inclusion and the committee that we will form, we'll be able to survey the membership. And find out what people are experiencing and we can address those issues either through tox or through other means.

derek daniels: So representation is everything. Representation is very important. I mean, just think about yourself or for people who stutter, you know, growing up, my representation was Porky pig. And Elmer Fudd. And so that's all you saw. And so whenever someone would tease someone who stutters, what would they say? You sound like this because they saw that they know.

derek daniels: So I think the more representation we have of different types of people, I think the more awareness it brings. So, um, certainly within the. Profession, you know, I think, um, a lot of, um, state associations and a lot of universities are doing what they can to increase, um, diversity, not just increased diversity.

derek daniels: Because, you know, diversity just means that you bring in, you have to be different people. You also want to include them and retain them as well. So it's diversity and it's also inclusion. So that's something that, um, our state association is doing. And I know a lot of universities are working on it. I know Ash and in Bosler, um, I think, uh, capsid, you know, they have had, um, Different series, um, different talks on racism and addressing racism.

derek daniels: So I think it's very, very nice that we're having these discussions. I just hope that that the discussions don't die off. I hope that we really are able to keep these discussions going and do what we can to foster, not just diversity, but also inclusion.

uri schneider: And I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, Being engaged in that conversation is, is, is not a means to the solution, but in and of itself is part of.

uri schneider: Part of a proper way of addressing it as opposed to leaving it unspoken, unsaid, unrecognized, but grappling with it and grappling with the concerns and the interests that I bring, the concerns and interests that you bring and thinking about ways that we can make it a better place for everybody. And, uh, what would be something in the next six months, if you could have your, your dream.

uri schneider: In that topic, uh, it doesn't have to be within your sphere of influence, but what would a dream be in a scope of 66 months to 12 months? What would be something you'd like to see happening in our profession and our, in that regard?

derek daniels: Um, you know, I think I would like to see, um, you know, in our universities, um, a lot more faculty of.

derek daniels: The color. I think that will be very important. Um, I think in our university programs, I think it will be really, really great if we could do, um, our part to bring in, um, students of color, more diverse representation in our faculty positions and also in our student body, you know, I'm in the university setting.

derek daniels: So those things matter a lot to me. I think that will be, um, a really good thing that I would like to see in the next six, six months to a year. Um, You know, and I think I'm talking about your point of, um, intersectionality. Um, you know, I think, I didn't always think that my experience, um, as a black man who started really matter, like, you know, like, well, like these are things that I experienced, but I don't think really other people experienced.

derek daniels: So why talk about it? But. You know, and that's, I think relates to the issue of representation, but the more you hear other people with similar stories, then you're like, Oh, well that is important. That, that doesn't matter. So I think even within the, um, Within the guttering. I think, you know, we have a lot, we have to passing twice, which meets at the NSA conference every year, passing twice as for people who started, who are members of the LGBTQ plus community.

derek daniels: And every year at the conference, you know, there's always a space where people can get together and talk, but, you know, and NSA, um, had, um, hosted an intersectionality panel that Tiffany. Kettle stat and I co-hosted. So, you know, I think the more diverse voices we are able to hear, the more we are able to know about what, um, um, our fellow people who stutter experience.

derek daniels: So I think it, again, it goes back to representation. The more representation we have, the more voices are included. The more we know what the needs are, um, of the people who we work with and who we serve.

uri schneider: Yeah, it's amazing to just as a person who could take off my yamaka and suddenly exude tremendous male white privilege.

uri schneider: Um, I think I've always thought of myself and, and strive to be someone who was tuned in, but I've certainly learned a lot this year. And I know I have a lot more to learn. So just want to give, uh, a word of commitment on my behalf in our team, it continues to be a very lively conversation in that regard, both in terms of bringing in a full tapestry that represents the composition of, of humanity.

uri schneider: And also to the degree that we don't get there yet short term, before we change the staffing or the student complexion. Just educating ourselves and there's so much to learn and we had some on our blog and we've learned from other people, you know, learning more about the experience of black people. If you're not black, you can do a lot to tune in, become educated and, uh, and in doing so you can become a great ally.

uri schneider: And the same is true for every other identity that deserves a bit more attention and a bit less marginalization if you agree to, because

derek daniels: you can be in an open field. A person can be an open field, so to speak are Julie Andrews analogy, but still have elevator moments, even have elevator moments in an open field, you know?

derek daniels: So

uri schneider: it goes both ways on, let's see, that's the flip side of what I was in. You could create open field moments in the elevator, and that's a really good point. There. You could have the opposite. You could, you could be in an open field, but feel like you're in a crowded area, right? Wow. Last one picked first one picked on.

uri schneider: Um, things like that, Derek, there was something we talked about. Um, you can, you can take it or you can, you can reject it. We talked about something interesting. Cause I feel like we've, we've, we've engaged and talked about the importance of sensitivity to, uh, different cultures and things. We were talking in our phone call privately about his openness and all or nothing kind of thing.

uri schneider: Right. And, and, and the idea of where, you know, obviously no one should feel the need to suppress who they are. And then at the same time, we were just talking about being real man to man. Um, just on that topic of, are there places where you're not selling out. If you're not putting that part of your identity on the table, uh, front and center.

uri schneider: So for example, if a person who stutters becomes comfortable doing self-advocacy in the classroom and whatnot, but in another place, they, they do. I don't choose to put it out there as prominently. Yeah. Is that, is that inherently a problem or. Or, you know, are there shades of gray and degrees that are still healthy?

uri schneider: I was wondering if you wanted to share on that or if you want to pass on that, that's something I've been thinking about.

derek daniels: You know, I think we

uri schneider: all have

derek daniels: different social identities and, but those carry different degrees of salience for different people. So for example, um, I know that one time I was sitting at a table, um, this was at like a dinner and there was a person who, I didn't know, but he's the gutter.

derek daniels: I was like, Oh, he stutters. And so I was like, well, maybe I should like kind of voluntary stutter, just so he knows that I stutter. And they've asked the mentioned that I'm an SLP, you know, how can I work this into the conversation? And he, he never said to me that he was a person stutter, he never engaged it.

derek daniels: And I thought, well, why does he have to. Maybe for him that I'm gonna, it's just not something. I mean, maybe it's not something that's what they race. They live in part a salient part of who he is. So, you know, I think we all have different degrees of salient to that. We assigned to our different identities.

derek daniels: And I think that some people might feel very comfortable, you know, saying that they're a person who stutters or, you know, whatever, whatever the identity is, some people might be comfortable expressing that out in the open full-blast. And some people might not be. I think everybody is on a journey and everyone is on different places in that journey.

derek daniels: And people always have to do what's comfortable for them. So the person is very comfortable advocating. Um, themselves as a person who stutters in the open, I think that's fine, but people, some people are on different parts of that journey and may not be as comfortable or for some people, maybe their stuttering is really just not a salient part of their identity, even there'll be acknowledged that, that they start are.

derek daniels: So I don't think that they necessarily have to, um, advocate that if they don't choose to. So I don't think it's an all or nothing thing. I think there are definitely are different degrees of how people can choose to express their identity.

uri schneider: That was, uh, I have to go back and listen to that. A couple of times there was a lot of wisdom act in there, but there's no one I would listen to more than you both because of who you are, but also because of how much time you've invested in understanding and looking at this topic.

uri schneider: I want to ask you one question from Tom. Fascinating question, but I also just wanted to reflect on that too. You would say. It could be a function of your stage of change or where you're at in your own personal journey, your readiness, a person at a certain stage, isn't ready to go into a self-help meeting.

uri schneider: Isn't ready to identify with that identity, whatever it is, stuttering or, or what have you. And that can be quote unquote, developmentally appropriate and understandable and have permission for that. Right. And then someone later on maybe ready to put it on the table and actually it's really important to them.

uri schneider: So put it on the table. It's an important part of exercising and flexing that and getting really comfortable with themselves and that thing, that identity, and in that phase, there could be certain social contexts and places in situations where they choose not to, and that's not a weakness. And then they may get to another phase where they're so comfortable.

uri schneider: It might not need to be as much of this. Front and center kind of, uh, putting it out there. It's a fascinating thing. Um, so I just want to make one more plug. Derek is the man that's number one. Uh, and it's been amazing. And I'm going to have one more question, but for anyone that's interested, I did pop in the comments, two exciting things.

uri schneider: One for teens and adults who stuttered, who want to just take a dabble and see what's this transcending stuttering Academy online course looking like free access. Okay. So you can sign up. Until the end of the year, you'll have full access to the whole thing. I'm really excited to get feedback so we can sharpen it and really co-create it together.

uri schneider: I think it's amazing. People have given some really great feedback and input, including some people on this call. I don't want to mention them and leave anyone out, but I'm looking for feedback and that's why it's available for free for people who stutter teens and adults check it out. And the coupon code is give.

uri schneider: So you go to the website, Schneider speech.com go to the online course. Coupon code give the second thing is we've got some questions from speech therapist that want to learn about transcending stuttering. We're going to roll out something really off. Awesome. In 2021, I've been talking about it. It's not fully ready, but early access again, free, just sign up Snyder, speech.com/slp.

uri schneider: We'll make sure that you get early access early invite on that. And with that, I'll ask you Tom's question and you and Tom go way back and we both love him. And he's showering you with lots of love. Also. I just want to mention Steph Steph is here and she sends her regards of police. She's breathing smooth.

uri schneider: Um, a lot of people appreciate Beyonce recognizing them, and there's just like more comments than I can track. But Tom says for people who stutter, who are considering the path of speech pathology as a career. Yes. So many of them wonder. But I stutter. What is, you know, is that going to be a detriment? Is that going to be a roadblock?

uri schneider: What can I expect? And how would you answer that? How would you respond? There are so many wonderful heroes and leaders in our field. In fact, the field was started by a bunch of people who stuttered, um, Thank God today. We have many among us who are people who stutter and also among those doing the research and clinical leaders, what would you say to someone coming up the ranks and thinking about going into the field as a person who stutters

derek daniels: say, just kind of what you just said there, look at how many people in our field.

derek daniels: Are people who stutter, who are clinicians who are academics, who are researchers. I mean, there are a lot of people who stutter and I mean, there's so much representation. I think of people who stutter in our field who do research and who are therapists that I think I would just say, plug into that, you know, plugged into that network.

derek daniels: There are Facebook groups actually there a Facebook group called SLPs. That are. So there are a lot of, um, ways that you can link up to, um, a group or another clinician who stutters and get the mentoring and support that you need. It definitely does not need to be. And I think it should be a roadblock at all.

derek daniels: And I would say that if it is a roadblock is probably a roadblock for someone who doesn't really understand , but I would say, go for it. Absolutely go for it.

uri schneider: And if, if they're, if they're thinking about it and they're feeling a little bit apprehensive, can they track you down and reach out for some input?

uri schneider: Because everyone's saying you're such a great mentor, such a caring teacher and role model.

derek daniels: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Send me an email, you know, find me a Wayne state university. You can go to the website, get my email, or I'll put it in the comments. Um, and I have to say that

uri schneider: I have to

derek daniels: be sure that I mentioned camp, shout out camp, shout out another turning point.

derek daniels: Cam, shout out, taught me about holding space. And even though, um, I was there in a trainee and a facilitator role, I feel like I learned the most. From camp. I mean, that place really just gave me a lot of confidence. It taught me about holding space. It taught me about courage. I mean, I just had to be sure that I mentioned how important camp shout out was and is, um, to my life as a person who stutters and as a person in

uri schneider: general, in the spirit of giving, there are many organizations that could use your support during these times.

uri schneider: So at this moment, a good moment to just. Highlight camp, shout out. I'm sure you can go to their website and make a contribution. They've made a difference in Derek's journey. Uh, they've lit others on fire as well. Many of our friends on this, on this call right now, Julie is here as well. And, uh, and of course helping directly change the lives of young kids from around the country who stuttered.

uri schneider: So with that, sadly, sadly, we'll end this conversation, but it should be the beginning of many more. And again, I think the highlight is. The differences. So just before I spoke with Derek, I had an amazing chat with Justin, Matt Lee, his life experience, uniquely different, where his very pronounced stuttering did not create a big piece of his identity.

uri schneider: Wasn't really front and center for him in his journey. Fascinating. So I think the takeaway to me is. We need to become a more nuanced and sophisticated in understanding the range of experiences, you know, when should never talk to a black person and think, Oh, that's not how a black person is supposed to talk.

derek daniels: Bingo.

uri schneider: That a person who stutters, Hey, what's, what's up with that? You don't stutter. Like the guy in the movie, that's not stuttering, that's stammering. We can't own someone else's experience, but we can be curious. We can educate ourselves. And even if we do none of that or all of that, ultimately the best tool in our arsenal.

uri schneider: Is listening and that's why you should go for the free air pod pros, because you'll hear better. Thank you so much, Dr. Derek Daniels, and for everybody who joined us to share comment much love, I hope to see you soon. Yes,

derek daniels: same here. Thank you. Take

uri schneider: care.

derek daniels: Bye bye.

uri schneider: Bye. Bye Derek.

Hang on.