#71 Bring Your Creativity with Dale Williams
“And I really reached a point where it was enough. This stuttering thing was defeating me every day. So I had to look for the little victories.”
BIO:
Dale F. Williams, Ph.D., CCC-SLP, BRS-FD is Professor and Chair of the Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at Florida Atlantic University. A board-certified specialist in fluency, Dr. Williams served as Chair of the Specialty Board on Fluency Disorders for 2 years. He has coordinated the Boca Raton chapter of the National Stuttering Association since 1996. His stuttering-related publications include three textbooks, a workbook, and a recently-released children's book entitled The Can’t-Be-Seen Who Couldn’t Squawk.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
00:00-02:45 - Intro
02:46-6:15 "The Sneetches" parallel to Dale William’s children’s book
6:16-10:08 Dale William’s story
10:09-14:17 Turning point 1
14:18-18:01 Journey from "stutter" to "stuttering therapist" and professor of speech-language pathology
18.02-20:29 Pushback in career choice
21:00-23:34 Classroom engagement
23:35-36:38 "The Can't-Be-Seen Who Couldn't Squawk" book discussion
36:39-42:50 "Stuttering Power Over It" book discussion
42:51-44:42 Tips for dealing with microaggressions
44:43-50:08 "Stuttering Power Over It" book discussion part 2
50:09-55:47 Feedback from Dale's books
55:48-01:02:56 Insight into the creative process (ideation to publishing)
01:02:57-01:05:28 Just start writing/talking
01:05:29- 01:08:40 Turning point 2
01:08:41-01:13:19 What would you tell your younger self?
01:13:20-01:16:31 General wrap-up and contact info
RESOURCE LIST
MORE QUOTES
“You can think of it as Van Riper. You stop hiding and you stop that association of negative consequences with speech, and suddenly you find yourself not stuttering or not, you know, core squawking as much. - Dale Williams
“It's a beautiful segue to understand, just like the writing process, it helps to just start writing and then later you can format your chapters and sequence and transitions. Similarly with talking, you can recognize that if you've fallen into this pattern of trying to prepare, edit, and do all of this mental work before you actually start saying the words” - Uri Schneider
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: What a big treat it is here we are. Uh, I used to have a really exciting background, but my guest, Dr. Dale Williams, you can't mess with his backgrounds. He's always, he's always got the best backgrounds. And we'll talk about those amazing illustrations that you see over his shoulder.
Uri Schneider: Uh, my name is Uri Schneider, the host of Transcending Stuttering, the podcast and the community. And it's a big treat to really bring up the topic of creativity. And it's funny because here we are, we're recording at the end of December, 2021. And my first episode of 2021 was a repeat conversation, uh, with my good friend John Gomez.
Uri Schneider: So we're kind of, bookending 2021 with two all-stars and touching on the concept of creativity and the role of using media and creativity to share conversations and information and inspiration. And I know you're going to really enjoy this conversation cause Dale is not only a professor and chair of a professional program and training program.
Uri Schneider: And we'll talk about his formal bio, but he's also a creative and a he's featured in films and he's also an author and he just has a unique, refreshing way of looking at topics that have been looked at before in a, in a refreshingly new way. So without further ado, let's jump into this conversation to bring your creativity with Dr.
Uri Schneider: Dale F Williams. He is thank you for having. Oh, totally, totally. Um, thank you for agreeing to come. Um, so Dr. Williams is professor and chair of the department of communication, sciences and disorders at Florida Atlantic university. He is a board certified specialist in fluency. He served as chair of the specialty board in fluency disorders for two years.
Uri Schneider: He's coordinated the Boca Raton chapter of the national stuttering association. Since 1996, we won't try doing math, but that's, that's quite a tenure there. And,
Dale Williams: uh, I'm old as what you're saying. Yeah,
Uri Schneider: no, you must've been, I'm trying to figure out how you could have started at 96 given the fact that you're only 30 years old, but his stuttering related publications include three textbooks, a workbook, and his most recently released children's book entitled.
Uri Schneider: The Can't-Be-Seen Who Couldn't Squawk. So here we are. Let's squawk the squawk and talk the talk. Welcome. And as I often lead off, what's something you'd like people to know about you that doesn't show up in that formal, impressive bio.
Dale Williams: Well, that was quite an intro. I mean, uh, uh, I was called what an all star, uh, an author.
Dale Williams: Um, uh, yeah, I, you know, I like all that. I would, uh, I would put dad in there. Um, and, um, yeah, I, you know, I, I like what I do. I like to write, uh, I, I like to create, I like the, the science, uh, it's a nice mix for me. And, uh, uh, in terms of the, the background, uh, these are ill, uh, as people probably picked up, uh, these are illustrations from the children's book.
Dale Williams: The, the artist is Susanna brown and, uh, she's amazing. Um, my job was to, so you can see some of them, uh, my, uh, job was to try to come up with some text that matched the quality of the illustrations. So, uh, I'll wait for feedback from people to see how I did
Uri Schneider: well. It's a phenomenal book. And the first association that I had as I looked at it and read it over, uh, I thought of Dr.
Uri Schneider: Seuss's classic, the Sneetches. Uh, I don't know if you ever thought of that or ever heard that, but for me, the concept of fitting in and the fallacy of thinking, oh, well, if I don't have the Sneetches story in short form, if I recall, and I think it's quite profound, uh, and a wonderful teaching tool for middle school and high school.
Uri Schneider: Um, but the idea of this guy comes into town and he says, I'm going to sell this tattoo machine that puts stars on the bellies of these sneetches and then all the, all the sneetches or, Hey, I want to have that exclusive tattooed star on my belly. And then everybody starts feeling pressured and either you've got the star or you don't, and you're either in or you're out.
Uri Schneider: And the desire to be in is so great. Well then everybody gets the stars and this businessmen has no more business. So it comes up with an idea and he says, listen, that was so last year, this year, it's all about no stars on your belly. And he starts selling the no star on your belly solution. And then that becomes the cool in thing.
Uri Schneider: And everybody that's still has a star is on the outs. So I think it's a beautiful illustration of how outside influences can create the concept of what's right and wrong and what that's whole and broken. And, and so when I read the book and perhaps, perhaps you, right, Dale, the illustrations are so good.
Uri Schneider: That was what made the initial connection, but your creative expression, uh, the rhymes and the creativity, the way you give talking a new word called squaking and, uh, you know, all of that just made me think of Dr. Seuss. So I think it's a beautiful piece of creativity and obviously the message and the content is spot on.
Uri Schneider: So I highly recommend the book.
Dale Williams: I thank you very much for that. I mean, that's certainly a nice comparison and, uh, yeah, I did want to cover the whole, uh, experience for, for children from, okay. So something's different here. Uh, let me avoid it. Let me try to hide it. People are still seeing it. They're mocking me for it.
Dale Williams: There are bullies, um, you know, nobody else is doing this I'm in this alone. And then, uh, you know, finally getting the right help and, uh, and working towards some, some acceptance. So, uh, yeah, I, I thank you for that. I'm I'm, I'm, I'm proud of the, the effort and the initial feedback has been pretty good.
Dale Williams: Awesome.
Uri Schneider: So, um, Before we get into the creative side, behind every creative. There's a story, there's a backstory, you know, and, and the books are a beautiful way for people, as you said that, want to understand the journey and, uh, for clinicians to use this practically hands-on with young people and adults, the books are extremely practical and intended for reflection and even have, you know, questions and journaling and things built in.
Uri Schneider: So they're really, really practical. But if you could take us into like Dale's backstory, in other words, uh, where, where did your journey of stuttering kind of go back to maybe what was a, uh, a memory of some of the tougher things that you endured and then maybe one or more of the breakthroughs and meaningful moments or people that showed you some light in the journey?
Dale Williams: Yeah. Yeah. That's um, uh, that's, that's a very good question. Cause you know, all the, all these images come into mind, as soon as you, you say that, uh, yeah, there were, um, uh, you know, there were times where, um, um, you know, I'm trying to speak in front of the class, uh, and it's not working and the class is laughing.
Dale Williams: The teacher is laughing. Uh, It, uh, you know, I think my response was much like it is for a lot of kids where say, all right, I need to, uh, I need to hide this thing. I need to not do it anymore. And, um, so, uh, you know, starting, I don't know, probably, uh, probably high school. I think I started out a lot of avoidance.
Dale Williams: I mean, there was one, one class where, uh, every day we had to get up, uh, we had, we had, it had had to go to the chalkboard, um, and it wasn't chalkboard again. Um, you know, I'm old, uh, and, uh, we, we had outlined sentences okay. Subject verb for when we put the diagram and such and. I mean, uh, you know, I would try to hide in the back of the class.
Dale Williams: I would, you know, I would miss class if I could, I would show up late if, um, uh, you know, he, I thought he was going to choose people to diagram sentences at the very beginning. So I have that, um, got an image of, um, or that, that, that memory of avoidance and, um, you know, I, I, I had a lot of tricks, you know, nobody listening to this is, um, surprised by any of this because, uh, they probably have similar stories.
Dale Williams: Uh, I would guess through, um, probably high school and college. A lot of people didn't even know I stuttered if I was gonna, you know, if I had to say something where I know the stuttering is right there, uh, I just wouldn't say it. I would do anything I could to, to hide it. And, you know, as typically happens, um, I got, I know all that does is increase the word fears, increase the situational fears.
Dale Williams: And I really reached a point where it was enough It was, this, stuttering thing is defeating me every day. you know, so I had to look for little victories. Okay. This is a problem word. I'm going to fight my way through it. Uh, you know, I don't want to, uh, I don't want to ask for ketchup because that's going to happen.
Dale Williams: but I'm going to ask for it anyway. Uh, it was just like, okay, I won this round. I won this this day.
Uri Schneider: What was that turning point? What age are we talking? And what kind of precipitated from moving from that hiding, avoiding tricks, and then moving towards, you know, what I'm going to go for it.
Dale Williams: Uh, I was in my twenties and what's kind of interesting about that when I had a chance to speak at, uh, the voices seminar at ASHA, this was like, uh, 2012.
Dale Williams: Uh, there were a few talks in addition to mine about people saying, um, I, I, I sort of got what I had been told all these years in my twenties. Uh, you know, it w it's a shift. I have to find a job or I have to find a grad school, or I have to find something and I just can't keep going the way that, that, that I'm going.
Dale Williams: And, uh, that was, uh, that was certainly the case for me. And a lot of that was okay. All that stuff I learned in therapy because at the time I was not a good, uh, client and, uh, you know, I missed a lot of sessions and I didn't pay close attention. Uh, but, uh, 10 years later here, I am saying, oh, what was that guy talking about?
Dale Williams: Okay. I need to do that. You know, suddenly it all made sense to me. And I think that, um, you know, for a lot of the, the, the people who, uh, made a transition in their twenties, I think it was the same sort of thing for them. And I tell my, my, my, my classes now. Okay. You may think, you know, the kid is rolling his eyes and he's not paying attention and he's giving you grunts in one word responses, but you may very well have a significant impact in his life.
Dale Williams: You're just not going to see it because it's going to be 10 years later.
Uri Schneider: That's so profound. I think the implications there for parents, teachers, clinicians, and people themselves, is like, we have to have a long-term investment kind of view. If we're looking for a quick return that today we're going to do exercise X and we're going to see outcome Y within, you know, client we'll do this exercise 80%, a hundred percent of the time by the end of the three months semester that didn't play out for you.
Uri Schneider: Luckily you didn't throw it all out the window. Uh, but for some people they do have a pretty sour, memory and experience and never would want to go back and kind of block it out. But if, if the encounter would match that, I'm just thinking aloud that, you know, as you're saying, it's not, you're not the only one that turned a corner in your twenties.
Uri Schneider: So when we're working with 15 year old Dale or 15 year old Debbie, or the squawk or whatever, I've blanked out on the name. That changes things for parents expectations for clinicians and for people. Sometimes it's a quick turnaround and sometimes just the long game planting seeds.
Dale Williams: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I agree.
Dale Williams: And, um, uh, the therapist's name by the way was Randy Miles. I mentioned that just because, uh, now I never thanked him at the time. So, uh, give him a quick shout out here, if, uh, for, uh, somehow this, this makes it back to him,
Uri Schneider: shout out for Randy. Um, so in your twenties, did you come to that kind of, that switch, that click on your own?
Uri Schneider: Was there some outside experience or individual that kind of brought you to that turn?
Dale Williams: Um, both, uh, initially the idea of, um, I can't let this thing keep defeating me. Uh, that was, that was, that was me. And it kind of became a competition me versus the, the stuttering, uh, when I got into the field and learn that, oh, there's names for all this stuff.
Dale Williams: It's avoidance, it's, you know, it's confrontation, it's desensitization, it's confronting fear, you know, um, that, um, you know, other people know my little secrets. Um, yeah. Then it's like, okay, let me, let me learn as much as I can about this. What did I do? Right. What did I do wrong? Let me kind of, kind of refine this process.
Uri Schneider: When did you come up with this crazy idea as a young person who stutters that going into the field of speech language pathology was something you were interested in pursuing.
Dale Williams: Uh, that's um, that's kind of an interesting story. I was, um, uh, I, I was, I was living in Boulder, Colorado. I was doing marketing for a photography studio and I realized one day that, um, uh, whether I came in or not, uh, pretty much the same amount got done on a given day, you know, I, I didn't feel like I was making a major contribution to, uh, society in any way.
Dale Williams: And so I started looking for another job. Well, I got an interview in Tampa, Florida, so, uh, okay. I booked a flight there. Uh, I had a long layover in St. Louis. I knew one person in St. Louis. So I called them and said, uh, you know, are you around that day? You want to come, come to the airport. I'm stuck there for six hours, whatever it was.
Dale Williams: And, um, so we got to talking, he said he was going to go back to school and do something else. I said, I've kind of been thinking about that myself, because I feel like I'm in a dead end job. Uh, so he, he got me kind of excited about the idea. I went to the university of Colorado library and started looking at grad programs.
Dale Williams: I came across a speech language pathology, and I said, oh, I, you know, I know I know something about this, and this is me. And, uh, you know, let me start applying. So, um, yeah, a combination of a dead end job of booking an interview and. I happened to talk to somebody a real high-end grad grad schools, uh, that, got me the, you know, to start searching and came across this field.
Dale Williams: So a little bit random,
Uri Schneider: random, totally reminds me of the quote. My friend, Seth Borenstein had different quotes on the place cards at his wedding. So the quote on my card was sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere and sometimes in the middle of nowhere you find yourself. And, uh, you know, whether that's walking out into a forest or you got to stop over or an unintended layover sometimes instead of getting annoyed about it, leading into it and figuring out can I phone a friend or can I figure out why I'm here?
Uri Schneider: Uh, it seems to be pretty pivotal for you. And, and I also love the second thing that, you know, if, if you're a young person or a person mid career, you know, thinking about the fact, the things that you. might Have grappled with have dealt with in your life have come to terms with might not be things that you need to shy away from and find areas of employment and lifestyle that don't hit into those things.
Uri Schneider: But rather you might have a fund of knowledge and perspective and strength and wisdom that could actually contribute in, in your work with that. Whether it's as a career or as creative or in the community. the fact that someone's grappled with something tends to, they may not be the smoothest talker, but they might be one of the best qualified people to engage with people who have that kind of challenge and are trying to find their way through it.
Uri Schneider: That's counter-intuitive, but, but a consistent message that we see and, and it was less common in your, in your days. I know Peter Reitzes for example, had a pretty epic pushback from his grad school. I was wondering if you encountered any kind of pushback in your schooling choices where people said, well, we'd love to have you, um, have you worked out that stutter yet?
Uri Schneider: Because how could you encounter any of that kind of, uh, challenges about the fact that you were a person who stutters trying to become a professional, a therapist, speech therapist?
Dale Williams: No, uh, though uh, the, the professor who covered the, the fluency courses in my grad program, uh, Walt Cullinan, um, he, he, he stuttered himself.
Dale Williams: Uh, so, um, Uh, you know, it was, it was, it was quite, uh, except there actually actually there were two professors on faculty who, who stuttered. Uh, this was at a university of Oklahoma health sciences center, uh, where I got my master's degree. Uh, I do remember the first day of the fluency course where, uh, uh, Dr.
Dale Williams: Cullinin said, is there anybody in here who stutters? And, uh, I was still in avoidance mode, so there was not a chance I was gonna raise my hand. So I just sat there and he went on and talked about stuttering and, um, you know, the shame and the embarrassment and people don't want to admit it and, you know, very, very pointed discussion.
Dale Williams: And then he said again, all right, having said all that, let me ask again. And this time he's basically looking right at me. So it's like, All right, it's me. Uh, so
Uri Schneider: gutsy move on his part and on yours,
Dale Williams: uh, it seemed like it at the time, uh, now that I'm on the other side of that, um, it's like, oh, okay. That was, that was probably a good move on his part.
Dale Williams: And, um, uh, you know, a way of opening up discussion. I mean, it is, uh, well, you know, I'm not giving you any news here, but, uh, it is a class. It is a topic. It is an area of discussion that worked so much better. If, if there's give and take, uh, to kind of, you know, there there's a lot of gray areas. There's a lot of myths.
Dale Williams: There's a lot of controversies and to kind of, you know, um, uh, to kind of play with that with a class makes the class a lot better. And I suspect that's that's what, what he was going for. Okay. Let's let's, let's, let's get some interaction going on.
Uri Schneider: Awesome. So there's a little tip for the teachers out there, interaction.
Uri Schneider: It's the way to go. Nobody wants to just straight up lecture.
Dale Williams: No, no. So some sometimes easier said than done. Sometimes you get a group that just wants to sit there and listen, and
Uri Schneider: that's easier or harder when they just want to sit and listen.
Dale Williams: Uh it's it's harder. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh, uh, it just, the time goes by so much faster when they're, you know, when they're challenging me with ideas when they're well, and when they ask questions, like, okay, this piece of research said a, but this other piece of research said B uh, you know, isn't, uh, you know, how, how do you, you, you fit all that together.
Dale Williams: And then I'm the, ah, you know, they're, they're reading the stuff they're thinking about the stuff. Okay. Let's break it down. Let's explore that. I mean, that's, that's just a lot more fun
Uri Schneider: for all the students out there. Hope you take a notes. So. At least Dr. Williams would appreciate to bring it up the questions and challenges.
Uri Schneider: I don't know if other instructors are gonna make, uh, they'll pay for that one, but students, you know, we want to hear you. And, uh, I, I mentioned to Dale, one of his good friends sense in regards, I was talking this morning with, uh, Kristin Comella and she certainly feels that the most vital skill that we need to have as clinicians is critical thinking and problem solving.
Uri Schneider: And, uh, if you're not having that give and take, that's not happening, you've got to flex that muscle. And, and I think similarly, that's a good model for therapy to encourage parents and young people and adults to, to think, to challenge, not just to sit and receive your instruction, but to really bring up the things that, that are resonating and things that are irritating and things that don't sit well and, and have that back and forth.
Uri Schneider: And rather than seeing that as defining. Seeing that as engagement and having an opportunity to really be invited into someone's authentic thoughts and feelings, and to really meet them where they're at and really practice client centered care person centered care, as opposed to here's what I have to tell you.
Uri Schneider: Sit back and take it in.
Dale Williams: I remember one year I had a very interactive class and, uh, the last day of class, I thanked them and said, you know, this has been a really good three, four months. Uh, you know, however long the semester lasts. Um, you know, not only did you figure out right away that I wanted the back and forth and you kept it up, but, uh, I don't really have a plan B.
Dale Williams: So had you not done that? It would have been me throwing out questions and there would have been awkward pauses, uh, because, um, you know, I, I, I don't know how to make that adjustment. So, uh, you know, this, this is the way I want to teach and, uh, you know, thanks for figuring that out.
Uri Schneider: Awesome. I'm going to take an excerpt from the new book, just to give people a taste of your, uh, your work there and just give you a chance to reflect. I really like this piece where he meets the other birds or animals or creatures, and they start talking about how they deal with their squawks and they all squawk differently in each one has his way of dealing with it.
Uri Schneider: Then our hero, uh, the main character seems to find his way. So I'm just going to read these few pages to give people a taste. Would that be okay?
Dale Williams: Sure. Go for it.
Uri Schneider: Thank you. So he says, uh, he meets these other birds or these other creatures and he says, oh, what's Nate asked them, what's your secret then? How do you get along?
Uri Schneider: How are you brave enough to squawk when it will sound so wrong? But it's hard said Kaylee, but I know bore squawking is just me. You think it's tough, but listen up, just try it Nate and see. Does everyone do all things well, and some things aren't, you better can blame fly as well as you in school. Don't you top redder.
Uri Schneider: We all have troubles. Nate now knew of that. There's no denying. But when their problems knock them down, some folks just keep trying. So Nate worked up his nerve until he squawked wrong without hiding. And it was tough as he had feared, he was himself still fighting, but as he tried and tried some more, the squawk became less scary, no tricks to think about at all, caused Nate to be less weary.
Uri Schneider: His squawks were odd. He knew that, but no odder than before and squawking, that was far more fun as Nate squawked, more and more squawks don't run my life. He yelled of them. I'm now the boss, my squawking doesn't have to mean that I feel at a loss. And when Nate didn't hide his squawk, a funny thing occurred as far more often than before a proper squawk was heard.
Uri Schneider: And you wonder why I thought it sounds like Dr. Seuss. What, uh, yeah. What would you reflect on that little section there? I really liked that.
Dale Williams: Well, to be honest, I'll, I'll address the, the, uh, the section a second of the honest, the first thing that went through my mind was, um, uh, my first publication in the field was in the journal of fluency disorders.
Dale Williams: And, uh, uh, title was, uh, uh, pre-phonatory physiologic and aerodynamic measures prior to the speech of adults who do and do not stutter or something like that. And, uh, my latest one is called The Can't-Be-Seen Who Couldn't Squawk. So, uh, w whatever that says, uh,
Uri Schneider: oh, I thought you were going to analyze my pre-phonatory airflow as a person who doesn't stutter, but you're reflecting on, on how your work has gone from somewhat.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. High brow to two books for children that really just hit you in the heart.
Dale Williams: Well, I guess we can consider it, uh, just, uh, the, the, the, the science and art mix that we, uh, we, we, we talked about it at, at, at the intro, uh, yeah, in that particular section, uh, Nate, the main character is, uh, is, is learning that he's not alone and, uh, okay.
Dale Williams: I can get some, some help with this. Uh, and, um, you know, I don't have to feel, uh, shame. Other people have, have things they can teach me. And, uh, it's, uh, Uh, the culmination of that section is, um, I, I mean, I guess you can think of it as straight Van Riper. you, stop hiding and, you know, not for, everybody, of course, but you stop, hiding you, stop that association of, you know negative consequences with speech.
Dale Williams: And suddenly you find yourself not stuttering or not. you know, not core squawking, as much. and, that was, I mean, that, did reflect my own experiences. I was older as we talked about before, but, when I stopped hiding so muchthe number of word fears, the number of situational fears, was, reduced.
Dale Williams: A lot of them went, away, which is, you know, which I didn't know at the time, but you know, is the way that it's supposed to work.
Uri Schneider: And I just that's, that's stunning. And I think it's, it's masterful integration of, uh, best in class clinical practice and then bringing it into an artistic storyline with poetry and rhyme. I think it's awesome. Um, and I think the evolution of being able to take big ideas. The analysis and understanding of anatomy and physiology and metrics of speech science and not just leave that in a laboratory, but be able to bring that into a kindergarten class, staying true to the science and the professionalism, I think is a real, uh, presentation of craft and excellence.
Dale Williams: Well, thank you. Thank you. I do remember. Writing it, it was, uh, uh, okay. Development through acceptance. What, what has to be in there? Um, you know, I, I, I want to, uh, bully, I want avoidance. I want, um, you know, things start to get worse. I want the feeling of, of, of loneliness. I want the, um, you know, professional help.
Dale Williams: I, you know, and, uh, so, you know, there's basically a list. Okay. You know, I'm crossing stuff off as I go through. I, I w I want the whole thing there and yeah, it's, uh, I was actually just, just talking to John Gomes, um, about this recently, um, Um, the question was kind of, okay, what is it that, that I do?
Dale Williams: And, uh, you know, I came out of my grad program is basically a lab rat, you know, you know, my, my PhD program. Um, I, you know, I'm in the lab, I'm making measurements, I'm running subjects, I'm hooking up equipment. Um, you know, finding engineers when it doesn't, it doesn't work. Right. I mean, that was kind of where I lived.
Dale Williams: Uh, I got to a university that didn't have the same research equipment, um, you know, okay. I have to scramble, I need some other publications and, um, For good or for bad, I feel like I've gone from, uh, okay. Let's run experiments and advance theory, uh, which is, uh, you know, uh, uh, a very noble endeavor, which is, you know, what, what, um, what, what researchers are supposed to be doing, uh, to, to, to writing books and, uh, with the idea that, uh, okay.
Dale Williams: There's information at has to come out there. Um, can I present the information in a new way? And, um, you know, I, I it's, it's not something we, we, we need to get into necessarily, but I, I think there are arguments that can be made on both sides of that.
Uri Schneider: I think that, uh, the more aspects and facets we can bring into our work and into our lives, it doesn't just enrich that part of our life, but it adds
Uri Schneider: texture to the other parts as well. So I think, uh, I would encourage all my professional research or friends to consider writing music and, um, you know, scripts and books and poetry. And I would encourage my artistic friends to dive into reading some of the speech science and research content. I think we'll all be better for it, even if it's not our go-to, but I think those that dance in both worlds really are a gift and, uh, and bring a much more holistic perspective and every perspective is valuable, but those that can stand on two sides of the elephant.
Uri Schneider: Uh, certainly see it in more dimensionality. So
Dale Williams: that's beautiful. Yeah. I, I think you, you, you hit on the key. Uh, there, I mean, it, it, it, uh, reminds me a little bit of Melon Walls ASAD paper, uh, Talking about, um, yeah, you don't have to be an expert on stuttering to, uh, to write your story, uh, to write a poem.
Dale Williams: I mean, William Plomer is, um, uh, you know, is, is not in the field, but he writes tremendous poetry about, uh, about stuttering, uh, you know, uh, um, some people , can draw, um, you know, uh, Daniella is good, good example of, of, uh, you know, someone using that particular skill he's, you know, and he's extremely talented.
Dale Williams: Um, you know, people who can, can paint. I mean, there's probably a way of, of painting that's representative of, of stuttering. That's showing that I would put a standup comedy on, on this. This was okay. That's, that's a new way of, um, you know, giving my experience. In a way that maybe you haven't heard before?
Dale Williams: Um, there's probably stuttering interpretive dance. I mean, you know, I don't know, uh, you know how to do most of this stuff, but, um, uh, yeah, your, uh, your particular experience, uh, is, is very important. Well, making movies, uh, you know, getting, getting back to John, um, yeah, you don't, you don't have to say, okay.
Dale Williams: Um, I only know my, my stuttering. Uh, so, um, I I'm, I'm limited in this regard. No, your, your story is important. I oh, okay. Obviously there there's some danger in saying, uh, my experience is everybody's experience. I know stuttering because I know my own stuttering, but, uh, is, you know, you, you have, you have emotions, you have some something to say and, um, uh, you know, there are different ways of expressing it.
Dale Williams: Oh my, uh, my son's in a photography program. I almost forgot to mention that. And you know, another way people express themselves.
Uri Schneider: Oh, I thought you were talking about my son, Dale. That's awesome. Both have sons in photography. We can, oh really? Yeah. We should have a pixel know comparison and, you know,
Dale Williams: Yeah, we will.
Uri Schneider: And, and exhibit.
Dale Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, uh, and, uh, he's in New York city. So he screens probably not, not that far from you.
Uri Schneider: Perfect. Perfect. Well, John Gomez is actually a right along with us for this conversation in real-time. So shout out to our good friend, John. Um, and in comedy you mentioned,
Dale Williams: Ah I would have said nice things about him if I had known that.
Uri Schneider: That. That's why I didn't say it till now.
Dale Williams: Okay that's fair.
Uri Schneider: Nina G uh, was mentioned in the comments and comes to mind as a comedian. Uh, both John and Nina have been on this podcast. And I'll tell you, Dale, uh, you were talking about expressive dance. Believe it or not. This is as far as I know the only podcast where we've ever had a dance session on an audio podcast with my good friend, Shane Garcia, Shane was on.
Uri Schneider: So you think you can dance many years ago and in his expressive. He was expressing his journey with stuttering. It's the most exquisite piece. And so his episode is awesome. And to top that he will be doing a masterclass workshop in 2022 for people who stutter to explore through the art of movement and expressive movement.
Uri Schneider: So that's going to be super cool.
Uri Schneider: I need to find that, that, that podcast and he's
Uri Schneider: near you, Dale, he's near you. He's in Florida. He's awesome. Yeah. So we'll make that thing start here. You never know where the ripples go. It's kind of like what happened in St. Louis ends up in Florida Atlantic university. Um, this is awesome.
Uri Schneider: I want to come back to this. And you mentioned also another one of our good friends, another person who was on the podcast, Danielle Rossi, uh, who wrote this, uh, illustrated piece called. So, uh, Stuttering Is Cool. There's also a podcast and a website and a sequel and his drawings are just amazing. And in his book, he has the, uh, Stereotypical people who stutter and I'm not going to give it away.
Uri Schneider: You got to see his book to see it. But what struck me in your book, uh, in Stuttering Power Over It, this is not the children's book. This is the book, uh, I guess for adults, is that right? Yeah.
Uri Schneider: Yeah, it's a workbook.
Uri Schneider: So I wanted to bring attention to chapter nine and I thought it was stunning and it made me think of Danielle Rossi as well.
Uri Schneider: You list here, the types of listeners and you list the following types of listeners. Um, and I just want to preface this by saying in our fields, the work with people with aphasia, as far as I know is one of the most pronounced places where we talk about the value and the impact of communicative success.
Uri Schneider: The success of establishing meaningful communication does not reside exclusively on the shoulders of the speaker, but rather it's a shared experience and a shared responsibility between the dyad, the speaker and their conversational partner. And so. I don't think we do enough of that. And the way we think about stuttering and the role the listener can play.
Uri Schneider: And I think in many places, the listener, be it, a parent teacher, a friend, intimate partner, they really don't know what the other person would wish for them to do. And it ends up leaving a lot of disappointment on both sides. So one of the big things I think is important, we look at is how people who stutter, let their audience, let their world, let their family friends know what they would wish for because everyone has a different wish.
Uri Schneider: Some would love if you would not call on them in this situation or give them a pass on the oral presentation and let them present it differently, others would wish to be treated absolutely no differently than anyone else, but somehow having that explicit conversation. But in your book, you list the stereotypes or different types of listeners, and I'm going to list them here and maybe.
Uri Schneider: Share with us, your favorite or most important one to shed some light or maybe some humor? Uh, there's the know it all listener and there's the jerk. We've all met that one. Then there's the curious one, then there's the hypocrite. There's the benevolent one. There's the family. There's the friends. There's the date.
Uri Schneider: And then there's the subtle one. Uh, which of those would you like to share a little bit and enlightened us with some insight or some humor,
Dale Williams: uh, would these types of listeners and it is, this is based, um, Uh, I really need to thank the, uh, th my local support group members for, uh, this information, because in, my first boat way back when, uh, 2006, I guess I, I had a chapter on, on, on listeners and it was basically their, their stories.
Dale Williams: Uh, one guy was bullied in middle school. One guy was actually thrown out of a room. I mean, physically grown out of a restaurant. Um, uh, one guy, uh, overheard a coworker, mocking his stuttering, uh you know, they came up with these great stories and I said, okay, I'm going to put them in the book.
Dale Williams: I'm going to make them first person I'm going to try to get, okay, well, let, let's get all, all the raw emotions of these things. And so this was, this was kind of an extension of that. And, um, uh,
Dale Williams: I, I, I think though the, the woman who I'm, I'm, I'm actually trying to think of it was, was, was this book or the other, um, uh, I'm getting my stories mixed up here, but the one bending over backwards, uh, to say uh, I don't have any qualms about disabilities. I'm going to, um, uh, show you that I'm as open-minded as possible, uh, that I, I think it is kind of a, I don't know, it's an interesting one to me because, uh, while that person really means.
Dale Williams: Uh, you know, they have no idea how condescending that, that can come across. Uh, yeah, uh, also the, the, the, the last one, the, the, the subtle, um, you know, getting into it and you're getting into microaggressions and subtle prejudice, uh, that, that kind of stuff. Um, you know, that that's been something I've been thinking a lot about over the last couple of years, just trying to identify, uh, those, those instances.
Dale Williams: I find those interesting because you can't ever nail somebody on it. You can't, ah, ha wait, what you just did there. That was a microaggression because there's always, uh, you know, there's always another possible reason. For that. Okay. I, I, I started talking some, somebody talk talks over me. Okay. Well, why did you do that?
Dale Williams: Do it, do I not get a turn? Do I, you know, is what I have to say less important? Oh no. I just had to say this right, right now. Okay. I, you know, I joined a conversation. I stutter I'm ignored. Okay. Well, well, you know, isn't that a microaggression isn't that kind of, um, you know, treating me a certain way because of a speech difference?
Dale Williams: Uh, no, we were, the two of us were just engaged in a conversation. I had something to say to my friends, so, you know, you, and, and by the way, those excuses might, might be a hundred percent accurate. So you as the person experiencing this also don't don't know if, um, you know, okay. Was that a microaggression or was that just one of those things that, that happens sometimes in life?
Dale Williams: Uh, I think it happens more to people. Well, I know it happens more to people who stutter. Uh, so there are microaggressions, but, uh, isolating us a single instance and, you know, a single event and saying that was the wrong thing to do. That's, uh, that's very, very difficult and can be frustrating.
Uri Schneider: What, do you have any practical tips, either from your own experience or from your perspective of having seen and heard and shared so many stories and journeys for someone that experiences one of those episodes and they don't know what to make of it or how to try to make it a better one, any thoughts on, uh, ways to have those crucial conversations with that person?
Dale Williams: This is a conversation that comes up a fair amount in a support group meetings. And I think the key there is to be yourself, I can say, okay, here's what I would do in that situation. Maybe that doesn't doesn't work for you. Um, I have been in situations where I've been comfortable enough with everybody in the room where I could say something like, okay, just, you know, just because it takes me an extra second to say something doesn't mean I don't get a turn.
Dale Williams: Well, I say that, uh, in a support group meeting and several people in there will say, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's way too aggressive that's uh, you know, that that's something I'm never going to say, okay, you don't, you don't have to somebody, um, somebody finishes your sentence for you. Uh, complete the sentence anyway, you know, send the message that way that, okay, this isn't going to speed things up.
Dale Williams: Uh, you know, you're not going to, uh, uh, you're not going to be in charge of this, this, this conversation. Um, yeah, so, you know, I, I guess it's not very profound, but I, I do think it comes down to do, do what, what works for you. Uh, you know, we know so much of stuttering is individualized, and I think, uh, you know, the way we treat listeners can be added to that list.
Uri Schneider: Awesome. So that was one excerpt from the book. Another piece that I really liked that I'm going to share, I'll read aloud and then you can riff on it. And then we got some questions. So if you're listening to. You can drop questions, give likes. If you're liking this conversation, share this conversation. I think it's a treasured opportunity to pick the brain of one of the greats, Dr.
Uri Schneider: Dale Williams, both a professor researcher, clinician, and creative, uh, author, and most recently with his children's books. So this is another excerpt from the first books. That was the first book, the book for adults, 'Stuttering Power Over It'. And the chapter is called risk-taking. And I'm going to take the Liberty to read a page, cause I think it's awesome.
Uri Schneider: Uh, and then get to hear some backstory or reflection. So, uh, Dale writes "while I was contemplating matters related to my college newspaper. My age dropped four years and my surroundings became Rheem and warm. I was on a soccer field. 20 yards away stood my neighbor Horst. I was never much of a good soccer player, never much of a soccer player, but working with Horace provided me an opportunity to improve
Uri Schneider: my twenty-something neighbor grew up playing the game in Germany and knew how to bend kicks . Even better, he said he would teach me and as I understand it, the keys were where my foot struck the ball and how I balanced my weight go said Horst Schnell. Uh, and I sat, I set the ball in the corner of the field, backed up two steps and gave it a ride.
Uri Schneider: It bends around the cone horse had placed a few feet from where he stood again. He commended and the cone was moved, but I still curved my kick around it again. No problem in the empty lot where we practiced, I could bend shots around cones, chairs, whatever else was placed on the field. This was before the trick shot videos, but you were doing it.
Uri Schneider: Then I set the ball down. I got ready to kick it again. Only. Now there was no object on the field, just opposing players. The scene had changed suddenly. It was probably mere months, perhaps even hours past the neighborhood practice I had just left behind. I had some inklings of the game situation and my task was clear.
Uri Schneider: It was my time to try this new skill and an actual game. My school team played matches once a week. It was a lax group run by a phys ed teacher who wanted to coach football. But I had to settle for my teammates and me kick it. He instructed me as if I had anything else planned. I approached the ball, but suddenly the idea of curving, it seemed impossible.
Uri Schneider: Striking the ball in the exact correct spot with my weight balanced correctly was for reasons unknown. Now a far-fetched idea. Kick it I remember I tried to remember all of Horst's instructions as I swung my foot ball curved, not one iota and landed 30 feet out of bounds. Both the opponents and my teammates started laughing.
Uri Schneider: It goes on. But I think that captures something very powerful and I, I would love to give you a chance the title of the chapter is called taking risks, but it really captures, uh, a poignant human experience. Um, what would you like to reflect on it?
Dale Williams: Well, there, yeah, it's, uh, it's such an important part of the therapy process.
Dale Williams: Um, you know, any, any CFY, uh, uh, speech language pathologist can get somebody's speech under control inside the treatment room, uh, whether they're doing mostly, uh, starting modification, fluency modification, as, you know, whatever it is. Um, but, uh, you know, it is so difficult to transfer that to other environments and.
Dale Williams: It takes, um, uh, you know, that, that, that risk-taking gene at risk risk-taking thing on the part of the client and it's called risk for a reason. It's not always going to work. Sometimes the ball's going to fly 30 feet out of bounds, but it's also true that you're never going to learn how to do something without actually doing that something.
Dale Williams: So, you know, you got to try things and in conversation, uh, you've got, you know, um, uh, that kid is never going to learn how to bend the, the, the, the kick, uh, in a game. If he doesn't try to do it in a game. So next time it's, uh, you know, uh, he's picking up the ball from the corner. Uh he's he, he's got to try it again.
Dale Williams: Uh, you know, he's, he's got to keep this idea. It's, it's kind of the old adage of, um, uh, learning from your mistakes. Um, you know, um, uh, uh, going two steps forward for every one, step back, all of those sorts of cliches, uh, you know, you have a lot to do with stuttering therapy, if, um, you know, if you're not going to get out there and try this stuff, well, then your SLP has gotten, you know, has done wonderful things for you inside the treatment room, but, you know, life doesn't happen inside the treatment room.
Uri Schneider: How true, how true, um, Stephen Green from Ireland was really taken by some of the samples that we've shared here and intends to share these books with the groups that he's familiar with in Ireland, which is super exciting to hear from me. And I'm sure exciting for you as an author and creator never known how far your books will reach.
Dale Williams: Yeah, I, I, I think, yeah. Thank you.
Uri Schneider: So he was curious, uh, Dale, do you have any experiences, uh, or feedback of how, how people or young people have responded to, or experienced the work that you've put out through these.
Dale Williams: Uh, if we're talking about the children's book, um, yes. Uh, I have had some feedback from, uh, uh, either moms saying I, I, I read it to my child.
Dale Williams: My child really, really liked it. Or in some cases, um, they would quote their they're trying to, they, they, they would send reviews, uh, you know, uh, Mary and parenthesis mom, and then, um, uh, you know, Misty and parentheses, uh, five years old. Uh, and, um, so it's. With children's books. Uh, you know, obviously you're not gonna w I mean, I say this mostly for myself, cause I forget this.
Dale Williams: Some, sometimes you're not going to get the feedback of, um, uh, okay, this is, this is a great lesson that I'm going to use moving forward. You know, that's, that's not the kinds of things kids say. Um, Yep. It's um, uh, I know you talked about Dr. Seuss before, um, uh, using the book green eggs and ham. Um, you know, kid kids will love the story, but they're still not going to try new foods.
Dale Williams: Uh, you know, they're, they're going to hear the story a hundred times and then somebody is gonna say, oh, just as just like green eggs and ham. Okay. Maybe I'll I'll, I'll give this a shot. You know, maybe mom puts us on my plate enough times I'll I'll I'll eat it. So, um, you know, I think that's about the best you can hope for.
Dale Williams: Uh, as far as, uh, feedback from, from children. Now, I have had a fair amount of feedback from older children who maybe read stories to their, their younger siblings. And, uh, that, that feedback has, has been very positive. I mean, you know, at the risk of sounding self-aggrandizing here, I guess I've been very pleased with that.
Uri Schneider: Awesome. So a lot of, a lot of pronounced feedback here, uh, Steven Green from Ireland, uh, really appreciating you sharing from the perspective of the researcher, uh, chair of the department instructor, and also creative, um, author, Doug Scott, you know, really just amplifying the importance of that, that movement, that transfer of therapy outside of the clinic, being the hardest and riskiest, uh, requiring a lot of, of that.
Uri Schneider: And I think that's a, that's a dance, isn't it? That we have to work on figuring out how to embolden and build courage and at the same time mitigate, uh, and protect people from taking too much risk too soon. But at the same time, one cannot expand their, their circle of influence or their circle of comfort without taking some step beyond the comfort zone looked like you wanted to riff on that.
Dale Williams: Yeah. I, I think the, the, um, uh, it's very important to start that transfer process on day one, like right at the beginning of, of therapy. Yeah. They're not going to be able to go out and talk a new way, but, uh, they can do some something, uh, you know, something out I outside the, the treatment room, uh, that's uh, you know, in a long run, going to be beneficial, uh, for, for them.
Dale Williams: And, um, uh, you know, with, um, uh, the, the, the book I wrote with, with Jake Campbell, the stuttering book before. That, um, there, uh, you know, you, you, you outlined the therapy process and transfer generalization is always the last section. And I, I try to make the point. That doesn't mean that we, we don't know that we only do this at, at the end, but, uh, I think that's, uh, some, sometimes people in, in the field might, might forget that and say, okay, we've got everything where we need it to be now it's, it's it's time, but it should transfer in generalized.
Dale Williams: And, uh, that's, that's very difficult. Um, especially now with so much zoom therapy going on because you don't really, and I I've, I've certainly, I'm certainly guilty of this myself. You don't really have the opportunity to walk around with, with your, your clients and talk to other people and, you know, bring their friends in and that sort of.
Uri Schneider: Unless you invite him on zoom or you make a, uh, a speaker phone call. He can call Zappos. They're my favorite people to inquire and look at the latest sneaker trends for young men and young women and young people. Um, so yeah, where there's a will, there's a way, but just, yeah, the importance of, of what you said on day.
Uri Schneider: One, thinking about not what are we going to do in here, but what are we going to do out there and whatever we do in here with that mindset beginning with the end in mind of how do we consider how you're going to be able to utilize this? How is this going to make a difference? Not just in here, but from the first moment, you know, thinking about bringing it into life.
Uri Schneider: Love it. Um, there was one question, if you do we have five minutes? Can we take like an extra five minutes?
Dale Williams: Sure.
Uri Schneider: Thank you. So speaking of,
Dale Williams: I don't have anything else to do. So sure
Uri Schneider: oh, well we're just glad you showed up and once you're here, we're going to make sure to squeeze every bit out of you. So somebody asked me of time, Doug Scott was asking, and I'm curious to, uh, the timeline of creating these books.
Uri Schneider: Like how long do you spend in this creative process from ideation to drafting, to editing, to publishing? Like how long is that process for you? That's in your court before it gets obviously to the publisher and printer, but.
Uri Schneider: I actually just got a, uh, a contract for a second edition of the first book. And, um, uh, I asked for, for, for 18 months on, on that, uh, so that, that gives you some, some, some guidance, um, something like a children's book where, uh, you know, you're matching the, the text to the art and getting it right.
Uri Schneider: And we, we just actually had, he had a printing issue, so things are delayed again, uh, finding reviewers. I mean, it doesn't take that. It doesn't take as long to write the story as it does to put it into a, uh, into a presentable form. Um, so it's, you know, it, it's working a little bit at a, at a time when, um, uh, I, I, I wrote a, uh, a novel once on, under a student.
Uri Schneider: And, uh, that was basically the, the plan there was, um, uh, okay. I've got other stuff to do. I can't spend so much time, uh, doing this, but if I write a page a day, uh, within a year I'll, I'll, I'll have a novel now it'll, it'll be a novel that reads, like it was written a page a day, so it has to be smoothed over and edited and all of that sort of stuff.
Uri Schneider: But, um, yeah, that's kinda kind of how I work on this stuff is just, um, uh, okay. Let me put a, let me put a half-hour into this every day and, uh, you know, over the course of time, uh, it all comes together.
Uri Schneider: The most profound conversation for those that were asking, uh, that I've seen about really going into the inner world and workings of the creative, the wonderful conversation, Tim Ferriss interviews, Jerry Seinfeld.
Uri Schneider: About his creative process. And I thought it was incredibly insightful and enlightening for me. I was wondering if there are people out there that are pondering. Hmm. I've been puttering around in my journaling. I think I've got a story to share. I think I've got something here. I'm thinking of a good friend, Mo Murnick who approached me at a time where he was drafting his manuscript.
Uri Schneider: And wasn't sure if there was an audience for it, ultimately it was published as a wonderful book called 'The Gift of Stuttering', highly recommended in addition to Dale's books. And, uh, so for him it was kind of like reaching out to me and saying, do you think anyone's going to read it? And I sure know what I told him and I'm glad I was right.
Uri Schneider: They will. And, and their lives will be better for it. Do you have any encouragement or just first step ideas for someone who's puttering with the idea, but feels overwhelmed and, uh, no one wants to read my stuff. Do they, what would you say to that person who's at that place?
Uri Schneider: Yeah, I think that the key in here, you know, um, like with stuttering therapy, you never, you never want to over-generalize and say, what, what, what works for me works for everybody. But, um, I've
Uri Schneider: never seen that happen. I've never seen that deal. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Dale Williams: I guess I must've dreamt that.
Uri Schneider: Okay. Maybe you were in a different Facebook group or something,
Dale Williams: but, uh, uh, yeah, I would strongly recommend it. Just please just start, start writing. I mean, um, uh, I, I read, uh, somebody, a published author says say once time, there are no, uh, there are no bad first drafts because it's, it's always step one on the way to some something great.
Dale Williams: And, well, I don't know that I agree with that because I've read, you know, drafts of, you know, first drafts of stuff that had been sitting for awhile of, of my own stuff and just said, oh, that's, that's that's crap. Uh, but, uh, I, I do understand, uh, what, what she is saying that, uh, Just start, start writing, let the, you know, let, let the words flow.
Dale Williams: Um, you know, you can start, you can start putting it together and, uh, you know, you can smooth it out later, but that, that first part where you're just writing stuff down, that's the most fun part of the process. That's, you know, that that sort of anything goes part, the no rules part. And, um, you know, even if you do come to the conclusion that, okay, this isn't gonna work, this isn't anything anybody's going to read, you're better off for it.
Dale Williams: Save it. You're gonna come up with something else that, oh, you know what, let me fit it with this other stuff. Um, you know, I've, I've had that happen too. So, um, Yeah. Just, just write, write it down. I mean, one of the, uh, again, getting a little off topic here, but one of the things with the self publishing, uh, boom, is that, uh, people not only have to, uh, write but have to market and they don't want to do that.
Dale Williams: They just want to write. And I think that's okay. You know, if you just want to write, okay, I hope somebody reads this, but I'm having fun doing this. That's that's a worthwhile product.
Uri Schneider: So I think the takeaway, and I'm going to share two takeaways, one humor, one for real. And then we'll come to our closing question.
Uri Schneider: If you knew then what you know now. Okay. So my two observations also give you a chance to reflect on that. So one observation is if you're someone who's writing that first draft and there's no such thing as a bad first draft and you want a gentle constructive criticism. I think send it to me if you want an accomplished writer like Dale, to tell you if it's really crap, send it to Dale, because apparently he's not scared to let you know that.
Uri Schneider: Just kidding, but
Dale Williams: Well I don't treat people like that
Uri Schneider: oh no, not the people, but the draft, you know, um, obviously you're also better off sending it to someone who knows a thing or two about writing. Uh, and the second thing meaning Dale, not me. Uh, although I do have a book cooking, so I was listening carefully, uh, as one of those people sitting on the edge and then Dale, I would say the other thing that struck me about that first draft and just write, just start writing.
Uri Schneider: I think we can borrow that concept as like, just start talking because for people who stutter, I think one of the observations that people have invited me into is sharing the idea of such vigilance of self-monitoring. And self-regulating and self-editing that before even opening my mouth to say the first word, there's a hyper monitoring going on as if trying to do the first, second, third, and fourth draft all at once before, even putting the first word into the world.
Uri Schneider: And so I think it's a beautiful segue to understand, you know, just like the writing process, it helps to just start writing and then later you can format your chapters and sequence and transitions. Um, so similarly, I think with talking to recognize that if you've fallen into this pattern of trying to prepare, edit, and do all of this mental work before you actually start saying the words, that might be something to just borrow from Dale's idea of just start writing, just start putting it out there, and then you can take turns along the way, but the, the over editing is often going to be something that stops you and holds you back both in writing
Uri Schneider: and in talking, it doesn't serve your best interests often and it might even be your own stumbling block.
Dale Williams: Yeah, I think that's, that's a really effective parallel if it will like, okay. What I did just, just there, there was a time where I was pretty good at, uh, uh, monitoring my speed. Okay. That's a very good parallel.
Dale Williams: And, um, you know, and I can fall into that speech pattern, uh, you know, relatively easily, um, I forget a lot more often now. And, uh, you know, the, the, the stutters can be more tense, but, uh, but I don't care, you know, it's, I I've become desensitized to, to that. And I'm okay with it, with that. Um, you know, it's, I mean, I'm glad I learned the other speech patterns and they helped with the desensitization process, but now coming out the other side it's um, okay.
Dale Williams: I don't worry about that stuff so, so much I can, you know, uh, if I stutter, I'm not still, um, uh, thinking about it as I fall asleep, that, that night, I, I I've actually reached a pretty good point where I forget about it in the second.
Uri Schneider: Roughly what age do you feel? You turn that corner where you just don't care as much, and you don't have what you previously had, which was going to sleep at night, replaying different moments in the day that were rough.
Uri Schneider: And what age do you feel you reach that?
Dale Williams: I think, um, well, you know, let that, th that's a, that's a tough question. I think for the most part, uh, I was probably there by say, I dunno, 30 giving a rough estimate, but if you ask my 30 year old self, okay. Are there still situations where it's it's, you know, it's going to be difficult?
Dale Williams: Yeah. I probably say, well, if I meet somebody for the first time, if I, uh, you know, My in-laws for the first time. Okay. I know. I want to make a good impression. I'm uh, I, I don't know. I hope your in-laws.
Uri Schneider: I hope your in-laws aren't listening. That was the one situation you just pulled out off the top of the hat.
Dale Williams: Uh,
Uri Schneider: but i think what you're referring to is that it's a process and it's gradual. It wasn't like an all or nothing. One day was like this one day was like that it was certain situations still may have had that, uh, consequential feel. Whereas
Dale Williams: a lot of times I probably shouldn't have used the, the in-law one because that's like an important, okay.
Dale Williams: Yeah. You want to make a good impression in that situation? Some of them were dumb. Some of them were like, uh, I don't want to ruin the punchline of a joke. So I'm going to use the voice, or I'm not going to tell that that joke, because I can't say the key word and you know, some, some of it was just, you know, silly stuff.
Uri Schneider: Totally. But I think, I think what I'm taking away is two things. And tell me if I got it right. One is it's, it's a gradual process and it's situation specific. So one can have this. I don't give a hoot in situations a to J but situations K to Z are still of consequence to me. And one can have that and see themselves evolve over time is just having more places where they feel they don't care as much.
Uri Schneider: And in places that do feel consequential and may rightfully feel so like an interview for a big job, it makes sense that you want to go in and show your best, uh, what your best looks like and what you allow yourself to show and what you would prefer to tuck in and put on your, your nicest clothing that you're not going to wear every day on the job, but you're still going to dress up for that interview.
Uri Schneider: That's a different conversation, but there are some situations that are consequential and your book has a chapter on that. And I think that's so important for people therapists and peoples that are, think situation to situation they are not all the same. And the second thing, Dale is at a certain age, you can do that, uh, a seven year old, a 13 year olds, a 17 year old and a 30 year old.
Uri Schneider: Uh, it's not just plug and play, you know? So when we're talking to that 13 year old, that's not a message that's easy to sell or to transmit for them to just adopt. Whereas a 30 year old young adult, uh, has a different capacity. So I think just being realistic about what we know now and what we play then, and that brings us to our money question, which is knowing what you know now, what would you tell your younger self, uh, Dale of 12 they all have of teenage years?
Dale Williams: Uh, I would tell my, I would tell myself to stop, to stop hiding in. You know, w in regard to what you just said, um, you know, my 13 year old self would not listen to that. Okay. I, you know, everyone just made fun of me when I had to give a report in class, forget about this, not hiding stuff. Hiding is exactly what I I need to do, but if I could get him to listen, um, yeah, stop, stop, stop hiding.
Dale Williams: Uh, you think people don't know that your speech is different, but they kind of do, uh, you know, you'll okay. I hid it from everybody in college, but if I tell somebody I went to college with, oh, uh, I stutter, I'll get, I won't get a response. Like, oh, I'm shocked. I never noticed that. It's more like, oh yeah, I guess I kind of knew that.
Dale Williams: But, um, you know, we w w w we were always talking about other stuff, um, So it's, um, yeah, it, it's not as, it's not that it's not that big a deal. Um, I would tell myself that not everybody is watching you, not everybody is focused on you. Uh, you know, people are, people are self-centered, they're thinking of their own stuff while you're talking, they're thinking about what they're going, going to say.
Dale Williams: They're not hanging on your every word. And by the way, they're not noticing if a hair is out of place. They're not noticing if there's a thread on your shirt. Yeah. It's um, you know, all, all this shocking stuff, we, you know, uh, we're, self-centered enough to think that we're the center of everybody's universe.
Dale Williams: And yet we don't. Look at the flip side of that and say, oh, maybe other people are the same way. And, uh, you know, they're not really paying that close attention. Yeah. They're going to mock it if they see it because it takes us by surprise, but then they're going to move on to other stuff there. They're not assigning that as, uh, some sort of, um, uh, some sort of negative characteristic of you.
Dale Williams: It was like, oh, that was, you know, it was it it's like if you trip and fall, uh, all your friends are going to laugh, but they're not going to then, you know, from that point forward referred to you as the guy who trips.
Uri Schneider: Uh, to bring us home. I just want to say how thoroughly I've enjoyed this conversation and look forward to relistening to it.
Uri Schneider: And the comments and feedback already on the live chat. It's already been quite profound and outstanding, but I think the comment that you made when I read out loud, the children's book. Uh, you reflected on. Wow. The first thing I published was a piece of professional speech science research and my last publish is this children's book and what an interesting journey that is.
Uri Schneider: And I guess I think it brings us to this last point that you just said, and it really hits on the head of, there are things we may know now that we would wish we could tell our younger selves and that very same thing might be something our younger selves couldn't hear. So we might write that piece of speech science research and it's wow.
Uri Schneider: Earth shattering. It changes our whole understanding and perspective of what matters and how we bring that into a world of a young person has to take into consideration the style, the format, the platform, and the capacity of that young person to really plug into that. And so I think your ability to distill all your knowledge and research into these creative pieces, And writing to an audience of different ages is so important and something we all, whether we're writers, dancers, singers, composers, performers, filmmakers, we've all got to lean into that to think about how can we adapt wisdom into packaging that fits what people can bite into and really put into play in their lives and have these transformational experiences, which Dale reminds us might be long-term transformational processes.
Uri Schneider: They might not happen in that six months or that school year. Uh, and what does, how does that change? The way we parents, clinicians, people go into it and encounter, if we know there's going to be short-term stuff, but there's also long-term stuff it's not all gonna present itself in the next six months.
Uri Schneider: I think that's really leaves us with a lot to think about. Um, I just want to thank you. And if you had any parting words, I just wanted to give you a chance for, again, an insight, a joke, but this has been a thoroughly delicious conversation.
Dale Williams: Yeah, no, this is it. This has been fun. I've I I've enjoyed this.
Dale Williams: Uh, I liked the way that, uh, you know, you, you, you take things apart, you look for, for gray areas. You look ha, but what about this? I, I, you know, I, I, I find that process a lot of fun, so, um,
Uri Schneider: yeah, we only forgot one thing, Dale, where can people find you and get your books? Uh, what's the best place. We'll obviously put it in the show notes for people that are just listening, but if you want to just make.
Dale Williams: Uh, yeah, the, the, the children's book and the workbook, uh, the, the, uh, hearsay resources, uh, site, uh, hearsayresources.com, a good place to get, to get those. Uh, and, um, yeah, as far as shining a light, the book written with the stand-up comedian, uh, and, uh, th th the first book as well, uh, just, you know, Amazon or, or wherever you, you typically buy my books.
Uri Schneider: Okay.
Dale Williams: Probably not. I'm sorry,
Uri Schneider: go ahead, Amazon. That's a new one, a M a Z O N. Is that it?
Dale Williams: Uh, yeah, if you go to, like, if you put that in a, in a search engine, maybe like, like page three, they'll be, uh, like, like this, uh, uh, online store that comes up.
Uri Schneider: I can choose it with the national geographic south America, national geographic, south America.
Uri Schneider: My photography son has been on the computer. So he takes me down into the photography videography of the Amazon. But apparently it's a bookstore too. Well, this has been awesome. Yeah, please
Dale Williams: No, no, that's that's that's good. And, um, uh, that's, that's a good note to end on, so I thank you again. Thank you.
Dale Williams: Thank you so much.
Uri Schneider: We look forward to your feedback. Another great episode. You can hear this and all the other 70 episodes already, uh, on the transcending stuttering podcast, it's coming to the end of 2021. So if you have a favorite episode or a topic that you enjoyed, or a topic of interest that you'd like us to see revisit, uh, we'd love to hear from you.
Uri Schneider: You can send us a message, uh, here on Facebook or by email. And we look forward to seeing all of you in 2022, at the end of 2021, I am hosting a meetup. You could find out more. That's going to be a meetup on how to set smart goals for all of us looking ahead another year coming up. How can we make this next year, the best year ever, regardless of what Greek alphabet we have to learn with new variants and whatever is going on, we should all stay well and stay strong and stay healthy.
Uri Schneider: But all of us need to kind of set goals and put our sights into what we're going to do. Whether it's writing a new book, saying more of what we have on our minds, or getting more into a lifestyle of health and wellness, whatever it is, we're going to work together to workshop. How do you set smart goals and really go out there and get them?
Uri Schneider: So thank you everybody. Look forward to next time.
Dale Williams: All right. Bye. Bye everybody.