BIO

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski is from Grosse Ile, Michigan, and works in HR in the Executive Recruiting organization at Ford Motor Company.  She is a covert person who stutters and has been a member of the NSA for 21 years. During this time, she served on the NSA Board of Directors for seven years, is a former adult and kids chapter leader, and has led at least 60 workshops at NSA conferences.  She loves spending time with her husband and two boys, working out, and photography.

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

• Early years and growing up as a young woman who stutters

• Most memorable experiences and influential people in your life journey

• The path of hiding/revealing stuttering in life 

• Obstacles and breakthroughs.

• Wisdom to share with others in their journey - young people, women, parents...

• Vision for the future

RESOURCE LIST

National Stuttering Association

Upcoming events

MORE QUOTES

“I would never even consider talking about this with anyone. Being open about it, but I feel like I need to help other people who may be lost right now or who just may need to hear in an encouraging story.” - Cathy Olish-Maciejewski

“I would never even consider talking about this with anyone. Being open about it, but I feel like I need to help other people who may be lost right now or who just may need to hear in an encouraging story.” - Cathy Olish-Maciejewski

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: Wow. it's a great morning. Good morning, everybody. My name is Laurie Schneider, lead at Schneider speech. And if there was ever a morning for a conversation, and if there was ever a morning to have a conversation with someone from Michigan, this is that morning. And, as I wrote in my last post on social.

And there's obviously consequential things going on with elections and every vote that everyone cast is important. And I hope everyone exercised their democratic voice. But today I think the most important thing is to let the process play itself out. And for us not to stay glued to each and every microsecond, this will come to closure sooner or later, and we all need to.

Plug into things that bring us health and strength and positivity in our personal lives and create conversations and connections with each other from the bottom up, because we can really influence the environment that we live in. We can influence our communities, our cities, our States, and even our country and the whole world through the.

Conversations. We share specifically with people that are not like us, that may not look like us, or might not talk like us, or have experiences that are not the same as our experiences. And that's what brings us here today. So big treat and I'm really happy to be here and on Sunday. I hope everyone, if you're busy, you want to come back.

We've got an amazing conversation coming up with another great guest on Sunday. Look on Facebook events on screen Schneider speech, but for now at this very moment, We are here with Kathy oldish. You ski Macy juicy. Every time

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I wrote your name,

Uri Schneider: I don't know if you could do this when you're on the phone with like customer service, but every time I had to remember how to spell your last name, I would just say to myself being Jewish Macy juicy.

Perfect. So Massachusetts. Yeah.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Yes, that's correct.

Uri Schneider: Amazing. it's a big treat to have you. And, just to share with people, with whom they have the presence, the privilege to be with today, Kathy is just an incredible person. She is, in HR over at the Ford. Company. And she'll talk about that.

She's a person who grew up with a stutter. she'll be sharing with us the experience from the inside and the path of where it's taken her and surprising treasures and strengths along the way. And also the experience of trying to keep it. covert and somewhat not on the surface, the obstacles and the breakthroughs and what messages of hope and wisdom we can share with others.

So she's from Michigan, from a beautiful little Island. I should tell us more. Maybe she works in executive recruiting at the Ford motor company. She's been a member of the NSA, the national stuttering association for 21 years. She's been on the board of directors. She has facilitated groups for adults, for kids.

She's been a chapter leader and she's led more than 60 workshops in her personal life. She is a wife, mom of two boys and she enjoys, photographing and videoing. And I won't share the funny video that we connected over funniest videos I ever saw. But yeah, there's a lot here to connect and, really gracious of you to take the time and a day, especially like today.

So thanks for coming on and maybe introduce yourself to everybody.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Hello. Thanks for having me. I've been, Wasn't up all night watching, the election, but I am from Michigan. Here's where I live us who live here, always use her hand as a map. we've been all over the news. So I'm glad that piece is over with, but, yes, I live, in, Grossi all which is an Island between Canada and, a town called wine.in.

Michigan, newly to this area come from the Royal Oak area where we have a very active NSA chap under there. We moved out here just for a change. I worked at Ford. I've been at four for 25 years already. And HR, as I said, my prior role was in, in the executive personnel office where I was the vice president and board of directors, myself and my manager were their main contexts.

So at any given moment, a vice president could call me. I met with all of the new ones. So it being a person. What about others? That was quite challenging at times. And now I'm in executive recruiting where I'm part of the team that brings on the higher level and employees, married for eight years.

Yesterday was eight years and we enjoyed a meal in because of all that's going on in the world. And, I have two, two boys, seven and five, and they're both, They both, the other, so being a queen of culverts, it was at first, it was difficult and many realms to deal with. and, I like exercising, working out when I have time.

And the last eight months, I've actually, I've secretly enjoyed it because I've had more time to be at home with my husband and my boys. And I've got to nurture friendships in this area. I've only lived in a few years and so I've. I secretly like it, but I miss being social and being out there and shopping more and everything.

that's me in a nutshell.

Uri Schneider: That's awesome. Now you told me that, to do this, you wanted to really make it a point to bring your whole self. So you actually took the day off. what would compel a person like you. in the position that you're in to take a limited day off to devote to this, what does this mean to you?

What does this conversation mean to you? Why?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I had some time off I needed to take, but I was waiting till the end of the year. And I thought, I dropped the kids off at nine. I want to give this my undivided attention because I've done some of these before. I've watched many of these.

inner interviews before the podcast, and you never know who you can help. So I wanted to give this my undivided attention. I didn't want to be interrupted by work emails or pains as I'm online and or someone calling my cell phone. so I think the key to getting people, to accepted people who.

Stuttered to improve their reactions is educating them. I think the majority of the times when people laugh at you or me, don't, you know your name, I'm not good at telling why I just blow it off is because they don't know. So this is a good, great forum to educate those or someone who may be feeling alone at home, not knowing where to turn.

So it w it was important enough to get my head. And the, so I picked today to take the day off and enjoy my hour with, hope to help others along the way.

Uri Schneider: Wonderful. So maybe let's go backwards. What would be your takeaway message? What would you hope that if someone just stops watching right now, they've got limited time.

They're stealing away. What's the message that you would wish that someone might take away that you would like to share?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: there's. Probably the key is, as I said, you're not alone. There's and that, we're the only people that it really matters too. I used to come home after a bad day. I couldn't say my name in the meeting and I used to cry and I used to think, Oh my God, everyone's talking about me there.

I'm just going to be known as the girl who can't say. Her name and then being involved in that and the saying, having a great support system from other friends too. I know who I met in the NSA and people. Other I can turn to them. And the more open your, you are about it with your friends, family, or whomever, as long as you have someone to talk to in the tools.

That you realize over time, they don't go home and talk about it. Oh, this girl at work, couldn't say her name. Cause everyone has their own baggage. This happens to me. Mine. It may happen to be yours as well. And, take the time, there's local meetings, there's even AIS. There's.

Friends for kids. there's help out there. It's just putting yourself out there to get help, but you can do all that. But what helps me, what helped me the most, and many of us is meeting other people who walk in our shoes, because those are the only people who can really understand what it's like to block and.

To not talk like other people can. So I think it's just the point of you're not alone and, reach out, connect to people and that's gonna make a huge difference.

Uri Schneider: I think that's so important. And if we could just hang up here, we could. Cause that's the whole takeaway, Kathy just got it.

and why I think is really noble and noteworthy is the people like Cathy and so many others. Who've had these conversations. To pay it forward. I think that you look at people like Kathy and you say, wow, she's really got it. she's got the dream, she's got the family, she's got the job.

she's able to talk about this very sensitive thing. and so many people are earlier on in the journey. And then when you get to a certain point, you feel like you've arrived and you just go on. But I think looking back and sharing that. That encouragement, that message and being such a role model, it's such a noble thing.

So I think, I thank you on behalf of others, and I hope that others realize that, the version of yourself or the version of me, or the version of Kathy that you see today, wasn't the same at 1815, And in some ways it might even seem almost preposterous. Like you can't draw a line. From that younger 12 year old self, 20 year old self, the worries, what you thought you were entitled to, what you thought you had in store in life, what kind of family or relationship you could be worthy of, or that someone would take you and love you for who you are jobs and so on.

Do you want to share anything about that? I think that's a really interesting perspective because I think when you arrive, you might not even realize how valuable that could be to reflect back the people who are earlier on and. And they need some real hope and people like you, Cathy, you are real hope, and I think maybe if you'd like to go there, I think could be really insightful and encouraging for people.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Thank you. Yeah. I, it took a long time to get here and I'm not even where other people I should say are, or somewhat needed to be. when I was a child, I, went to, I would see the school as SOP, and there were a few other kids and I, yeah, once I hit junior high, I decided I wanted to blend in.

no kid wants to have a zit or ha or, everyone wants to belong. So I began to hide it. and that lasted. So my mom thought that magically went away. We never really talked about it. And in my home, when I was child, I just went and saw an SLP two times a week. So I get out of the high school and choose to work.

I continue to hide and, was having a bad week, looked up, went on the web and looked up, stuttering, help from the NSA, printed, everything, it was like this big, page put it away. Six months later, pulled it out. When I was ready for help, the key is really to be ready. So you may know we're here or there's help available.

It's taking that big leap. And so I took the leap, a friend of mine, Sarah D'Agostino. She also, Someone I knew her. And she was a person who's the other two gave her the packet once you are first meeting. And that's where my journey began, but it even took several years for me to openly block in front of anyone.

I continued to hide probably about three years into it. Once my first NSA conference, everyone thought I was an SLP. so it took me years, many years to openly other in front of people, even at the conference.

Uri Schneider: Can I just for people. And you've got a lot of friends that are common things, so Doug.

And Anita and a bunch of others from that are familiar to me and unfamiliar to me that a bunch of people watching your likes, your comments, your questions, we'll weave them together into the conversation, but for people that are not familiar, Kathy, why were people thinking that you were a professional and not a person who stutters because there is something interesting there, and I just don't want to take it for granted.

Can you unpack what that meant when you said that about covert. there are people who stutter and I often meet parents and people along the way in life. And they'll say, yeah, no, I have the stutter. It's not like the one in the movies. It's not like the one, like I, yeah. so you're describing your experience and I think it's nice to have a name for it, but I think let's not take for granted.

What does that mean for people that may not be familiar? What does that mean about your experience?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh yeah. so people thought I was a speech language pathologist, cause I was fluent. Because I'm so hidden. and I would do anything to not let anyone know that I was a person who stutters even to this day.

I do that. I'm a little bit more open now, but. When there were a lot of SLPs who, attended the annual conference friends and a majority of them don't, that's just their role, that's their job. And they help people who's stuttering with other, other speech and impediments. So I didn't feel like I fit in because I didn't stutter enough for the stuttering.

Community, but I wasn't fluent enough in the regular word. It's like you're caught in an elevator and you're caught between two floors. Like you don't know where you've fit in. And I struggled with that for many years. Cause I was so in tuned to like ways of hiding it, like I'll cough or sneeze or reword, rephrase my words.

I was so used to doing those avoidances that I didn't allow my blacks out. So there some people who doubted I did. so

Uri Schneider: it's never doubt it.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: And no, but when I was younger, my twenties and even younger than that, there were times there were days that would go by and I didn't block, but I was so good that I fooled myself.

and then I'd hit one block that was seem like it was a five minute block. And then, okay. I do, but I didn't really know what was going on. I didn't know anyone except a five-year-old boy. Who stuttered, who I used to go to speech with. just the hiding things. And I would go to any extent.

w we would go out to the bar, I changed my name. My friends would change your name. They thought it was cool. I'd give everyone a nickname. They had no idea why I was doing this. And it wasn't until I was,

Uri Schneider: I tried changing my name to cause nobody could say it. And I don't know if your maiden name or married name is Massachusetts, but that would also be a reason to change your name.

But you're not talking about your last name. You're talking about your

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: first name, actually OLIS I'm oldest at work cause, oldish is easier to say and I've been there long enough. I've been there long enough. So that's my excuse. Massachus skis a little bit harder. And when I spell it, I can't always get the w out.

So I chose to remain Alesha at work and it's easier to say. but, No, but even changing my name. if I was calling anywhere and they needed my name and they I'd never talked to them again, I was one by Ann because Ann was easier to say and sometimes I'd get caught up in it and my friends would hear me and I would just make up something, but I'd rather see, I'd rather be seen as, Polish air heady person, then let them know what I'm doing with my words is I'm really avoiding.

So that's how far I'd go. And even to this day, I'm a little bit better, but I still have my moments where I'd rather have someone think I'm not as smart, then see me black. And that's what I deal with. And often, and I know, I think in this point in the game, it's too late on my end to change. Like I can't.

The few friends I've told, there's only been a handful. I can probably count on both. And some of it has to do with some of them have met friends in the NSA and I had to disclose, or so the few friends I've told, I still hide around them. So why tell the world I thought, or what you're seeing here is not, what if someone else was in this room?

One, I wouldn't be talking about this. And two, you wouldn't hear all these, this influenced, cause I would totally be on my game trying to hide sometimes I'm a little bit more relaxed now, but I don't know. I feel like it's ingrained. Like it's I lead two lives and I don't know how to find a happy medium.

I don't post on my feed about, NSA essay or. Or othering. I don't do any of that. I don't know if I ever will. And I don't really know why. part of it is, I know I'll feel accepted. I just think then people will think I was lying about who I am, even though I don't know. It's very confusing. there's a lot more to it than that,

Uri Schneider: but that's, there's so much to it.

And I think it says a lot to just. Even open that up and say, look, I haven't totally wrapped my head around, making sense of this whole thing. I'm just being open that I have a pull in each direction and I've done some pretty interesting things, like changing my name or at work. I've created an identity with the easier name and I don't think I'm going to change it.

but maybe I should, but why would I, feeling a little bit torn? I think first of all, there's a lot of strength in that, just in that.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Yeah, thank you. And my son, my oldest, when he was six, about a year ago, he was, I forget where we were, but his friend was teasing him, just mimicking him.

And he just told them to stop. And I looked at him like, geez, why can't I do that? I just laugh it off. Or I don't even say, Oh, by the way, I have a speech impediment. I just let people, so it's he's teaching me, to not let people do that. So it's having kids who do have definitely changed my view because I have to be less ashamed.

I don't let them, I encourage them, here's how you respond. And if you get teased and. I don't let, I make sure they don't hear me talk about something like this, about how for years I was ashamed because I don't want them to be, and now we might have a president and we had a vice president, and they both know, he's the others.

I hate that word is such a hard word to say, can we change that please? so it's just. I don't know, it's just this baggage that I don't know if I'll ever unpack, but I've watched others by all of the workshops. I've done comments, hide it. And they've a lot of them become so open. It's so refreshing to see.

but as you look back, you never imagined yourself in the place. So who knows? Maybe one day I'll be completely open about it, but right now, As long as I think, as long as you don't let it get in the way of what you do and say then no, keep on moving on, keep

Uri Schneider: on moving. Keep on trucking. I know we've got again, some very nice common friends.

So just tell you, who's giving you some shout outs. Some of them, I don't know, but Adam worth, always dependable from upstate New York, Christine Simpson. this is a name I'm not sure I'm gonna get right. LJ and Emoto.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh,

Uri Schneider: LJ. There you go. Bob cost and, Russ Hicks, our good friend rest six. Funny. We were talking before the call and I listened to your podcast that you did with Pam Mertz, which was amazing.

And you shared a pivotal experience with Russ. So as we were talking about it, my phone. Like Siri or something picked up that I wanted to talk to Russ Hicks and all of a sudden I'm calling Russ fix. I hung up quickly. I didn't get to tell him it wasn't a pocket dial or this dial. It was just an accidental, he calls me back.

So that's why we got on late. I was speaking to Russ. so Hey Russ, Tom, Sharfstein seen from Florida, Doug Scott from Texas, and need a blonde from Sweden, Steph lip, sack, Steph lib sack from, I hope she's home. I can't keep up with Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's is on the way wherever you are in Colorado.

lots of loves to use stuff. And, Nina G Nina, G I want something funny or from you, but she says she's so proud. this is great. Again, your likes, your comments, your questions, we'll try to integrate, but if you can share this, in the groups, especially in the community, not too far out there, because we don't want to be too out there, but if you want to share this in the community of people who stutter, I think that.

I think that the nuance that we're touching on, I think the courage and the achievements that Kathy embodies and at the same time sharing that, it's a work in progress. it's a tension. It's not a point of absolute openness. And it's also not a point of absolute, hiding there's shades of gray.

Along the way. And I think the idea of everyone finding their balance. And I think, I would love to touch on that Kathy cause there's a lot of conversation, obviously in the community, especially now wonderful book, stuttering, pride and prejudice, stammering, pride, and prejudice. there's so much good stuff out there from so many of our good friends and in the research we see such valued being open.

Right and disclosing and just being, I think openness is the word I really like from hope. And now we Rogers. and Patricia, of course. So yeah, you have openness on the one hand. And on the other hand here you are, look how far you've come, how much you've achieved, you're doing this Facebook live. And you said if there were other people in the room, they wouldn't hear you stutter, you'd be on your game, which I guess is the game of.

Suppressing any kind of disfluency when coming out. Yeah. And yet, there are a few of our friends in the room, so to speak, you didn't shy away from this. Do you leaned into this? So I find that so interesting. In other words for you, there is a level of wanting to keep a certain level of covert. A certain level of this is my thing.

I don't want to be putting it out there entirely, but there's also tremendous courage that you're even having this conversation and that you've done. All the things you have done. and you're also a mom of two kids who are finding their way and doing things a little differently than you might've done.

And that's so interesting. So I just want to touch on this idea. Do you think it's a virtue to be 100% open, 100%, committed to full disclosure, openness in every situation it's like integral. Where do you think as a virtue, there's actually virtue to finding the balance that works for you in different communication situations?

Cause I think that's an interesting point of view to consider

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: for me, it's a balance. as you mentioned earlier years ago, I would never even consider talking about this with anyone. Being open about it, but I feel like I need to help other people who may be lost right now or who just may need to hear in an encouraging story.

What, yeah, I've been into many debates of people who are overweight, who cannot hide. I believe anyone who can at one time would have, cause why I find that hard to believe in those many people who are so severe. Who can't and I've been in many debates. with many people I would never encourage it.

So some people have a choose me of encouraging it. I don't, I'm just here to share my journey. My viewpoint one has helped me. I'm definitely more open than I used to be. I envied people who can just let it all out there, advertise all over there. Their social media. I just, I don't know. It's I feel if I do every time I talk, people are going to notice like, Oh, she just did there.

She just sit there. I don't know, it's just a thing I played with an inside, but I believe if people are doing and saying what they want to do, it doesn't matter. And it only matters to themselves. So I don't avoid, I go out, I make friends, I have fun. I may switch my words around a lot and sometimes I don't make sense, but I don't avoid doing things or saying things.

I could have easily taken other jobs where I don't, meet with. The high level people. it could be intimidating when I first did this. I'm like, why am I doing this? And I had things that I would do before I met with them. I get days of rest before I wouldn't eat hours before, so there's things that I would do, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to, for, me, this, it just works.

And I've been more open in the new area we live in and with my kids, people will say, Oh, and I'll sometimes say, I also am a person who stutters is I pick and choose who I share it with, but to have a support for it, for other people to have their family or friends know, they can help them.

and if you're not going to share with them, we're all in here. There's a huge community of people who are here to help you. so there's no one answer for everyone,

Uri Schneider: I think. would you agree that I think the I'm going to say this and tell me if you agree, or you would modify it, but.

The community that exists is one that people often find too late or a surprise that exists and wish they found it sooner. There's a community of people, whether it's online or in these national or international organizations. And if you can please pop those links of those organizations, the wonderful nonprofit organizations that exist, you pop that in the comments, but would you agree that it's, it's important and it's a virtue that there isn't one way that there's no one way to be.

There's no one size fits all. Would you say

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: that I would agree. I'm just glad that when I was a kid, I didn't even know about, I know even though how long AI has been around friends, NSA, I don't even know. it, and that were the made a world of a difference if we had known and now with, With Biden being in the news more that shed a lot of light on that.

And I hope this it's helped others seek help. Hey, if the vice president made, maybe president can talk about it, maybe I can do what I want to do or, I can seek help. I just think it's key. The more we get the message, like the Kings. Speech. that was great.

if I had years ago and I would've gone to the movies alone, we went as a chap dirt, which is fun. But even then I was like, who am I going to see at the show? But, I just think that's key if, and if it would've made a world of a difference, had I known about this as a kid? and that's why we were doing everything we're doing and sharing the message.

And it's a parents too. Parents also need to seek help and, Reese sources outside the school, and

Uri Schneider: I'm going to, I'm going to just say one thing about this last point, and then I'd love to go into the interesting places of work and how you've navigated that because that's fascinating.

And also as a mom, you've got your story and now you're raising two young boys. fascinating. but just to just flesh this out, I think it's something that could be an entire podcast in and of itself. But, I think that the idea, the virtue of the self-help community, and I think for professionals to get into this too, and for parents that there's no one way, no two kids in the family should have the same exact.

Expectations upon them, right? No two kids can perform exactly the same as one another. No two communicators are going to function exactly the same. Someone might be from Texas, but they don't have such a thick Texas accent or the Texas accent that you attribute to someone from Texas. You don't sound like you must not be really from tech.

No, it really, I was like born and bred in Texas. No,

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: it's a rock techs and a dogs. They sound different.

Uri Schneider: There you go throw in Lee Reeves and you could have a whole three months it's yours. but I think it's interesting that in the stuttering community for it to also realize that people come to the stuttering community or self-help community, they come because they find their people and they find people that get it that are finally, someone understands this whole mental gymnastics, this whole facade, this whole other identity as an.

When really your caffeine, they get it, they don't look at you and say like, why are you weird? they get it. And I just want to encourage that within the community and the Facebook groups, we continue to have that level of openness that brought us here in the sense that we tolerate and accept and welcome people where they're at and for the choices that they make that are right for them.

giving opportunities and options and examples of ways other people are going, but never to have. I feel like now, and there have been times there's like a push a little bit more to the list or a little bit more to the right. I'm not talking about politics, but like covert for example, it's thought of as something that might be a lock stock and barrel unacceptable, unhealthy, and you need to change it as soon as possible and really open up 100% at the same time, there are people like you, that seems to be.

Live in pretty nicely, living a very, full, rich, imperfect life, like the rest of us. but it's not if you were 100% open and out there, do you think everything would just get an upgrade or do you feel like you're functioning in a way that works well for you? And is that okay?

Is that good enough?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I think about that, casually, If I had been more open when I was young, a girl, there are some friendships that didn't happen because, picking up the phone, I think caller ID was the greatest thing ever and vented because, Hey, I'm calling it's me. And I wouldn't say hello.

Hello. I'd make a joke or make, I do something I wouldn't most of the time. I wouldn't say it, my name. So it may have made me more, opens to more friend, shifts. But other than that, I think I would have done most of the same things I've done. I would have been more open and class, raising my hand.

although I was pretty good at hiding it then even, but, I don't know. I, it, once there's people I know who hide it all the time and they avoid it, or people who are over at state, I can be, I can. Hide it by avoiding, by not opening your mouth or talking, I should say, or voiding of situations. And that's not being covert.

That's just avoiding when you're a covert, you face it and you deal with it and you somehow be CNAs do it. So I don't think my life would be any different. but now if I was more. Over, I think I would do better at work too, because, I sometimes don't say what I want it to say and using the right words or I'll just, I'll email them after this, meeting with my views.

And that I think is the one key piece that where it's really, if I would just be completely open or if I didn't have this, I think I may do a little bit. Better bread because I tend to keep my opinions to myself, but outside of work, I don't know if I'd be any different than I am

Uri Schneider: now. I think that's, that's amazing.

And I think, just maybe controversial, I would say, People look for balance. They want to have tension. you don't want to have that tension of I don't really know where I am on that continuum of overt covert. Like I'm not there yet. I still have a ways to go. I see. I'm not where these other people are at.

So that was something that you said. And I think that creates a certain tension of like their yard stick is the way I measure myself. As opposed to finding your way you got your Mount Everest, as long as you're climbing. And you're moving and you're doing what you love. You love climbing, there's a certain inherent tension.

I don't think we reach a point of balance of equilibrium. It's a point of constantly Riding a healthy tension in a certain place, you might decide, a word switch or a email or a message instead of a phone call might be adequate and more effective in that moment with that situation.

Whereas going into a networking event or the Christmas party as an, at this point in your life might be, that's not. That's not going to be good. I wonder if that healthy tension is okay. I wonder if there's a way not to measure ourselves by other people's

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: yardsticks. No, ma'am I haven't changed my name to an it's been like three or four years, and then, I've gotten good at, I've gotten better at, saying my names and there's certain ways of doing it.

sometimes they Athey athlete. people know my name. They might not hear the C. So I've done that before. there's

Uri Schneider: all

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: kinds of little. Yeah. my name is, Oh, I thought I knew that girl, Kathy, so there's so many different ways of doing it, but I don't feel I'd be a different person.

you are who you

Uri Schneider: are. And being at ease with who you are and then choosing how you handle it. That's how we choose to adapt. I think for kids, for young people, for parents, with kids, or for young adults, or for not such young adults, recognizing that you choose how to adapt. And for the most part, you're pretty good at it.

And then there are certain things that are maladaptive, so if you're choosing to before the phone call or before the meeting, having a little drink of alcohol, That doesn't go down a path that is healthy, that would be adaptive and goes down a bad path. But if every time you get on the call, you have a little preamble, Hey, how are you doing?

This is Kathy.

Yep. Yep. so those adaptations you might feel, cause someone told you don't ever do that. Go right into it. Be open, be direct, be all those things. I think it's important. We recognize there's maladaptive stuff, like name changing and, taking the pain away by numbing it with alcohol or drugs or things like that.

But then there are things that are legitimate ways to adapt. And if they're healthy, if kids are adapting and healthy ways of teens are adaptive adults, That's great. What parents and adults should do is look out for the maladaptive stuff and just change.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Ooh.

Oh,

I lost. Yeah.

No.

Oh, I lost you. I don't know.

Uri Schneider: Can you

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: see me? Or could you see him? Oh boy, I don't know what to do.

everybody

can someone type if they see me right now, because I don't know what to do.

Oh, okay. Judge saying, go ahead and talk to now. I feel like a fool. Let me talk about my I work then. in my old role, I was the HR contact for vice presidents and above, and I would do things. If I knew I had a meeting with them, I would spend, I would drive my husband around nuts. I would spend four or five days before going to bed on time. I wouldn't eat hours before because I felt like I was more fluent without.

full belly. I would, begin say, hello, how are you? It's fairly nice to meet you. Oh, by the way, my name is Kathy. Cause most of them I would email for days upon days before I met with them. I'd go over. I'd I jump over words that I missed. or I jump over words that I can't say, but I somehow always got the message across my manager would use to be in the meeting with me too, which was very, it just adds added to the tension in the room.

And, sometimes she, add more things that I miss and I was okay with that, but I was very good at, after that meeting to email them and send them any. Additional information they needed and when they could call her and I, if they needed anything and a lot of them tended to call me, I think, because I was friendly and more talkative because I was sometimes talking more in words.

so it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. So when that opportunity came upon myself to go into executive recruiting, I decided to, Oh, there he is. There he is. We're going to have to edit this piece out. What happened?

Uri Schneider: We're back.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Yes, I was Doug. Who was like, we can see you keep talking. And I was like, what do I want to

Uri Schneider: talk about?

Happy. Doug, I'm going to just Kathy, you keep crushing it. There's so much great feedback. and I think, I call that a zoom stutter right there. That was like a technology interruption in fluency. And if you just hang in, but things will come. so Kathy, I don't know what you said, but I'm sure it was gold because I'm here.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I want to edit that piece out.

Uri Schneider: Okay. People are eating it up August. Did you want to edit out the you part or the me saying that was a tech stutter?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: No, the me part that I was going, where are you? Hello? I don't know. What's can you hear me, Doug?

Uri Schneider: Can you hear me? Problem? I'll edit that out. Don't worry

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: about it.

Uri Schneider: Make everything look good. we'll make it like it was fluent. What would you say? Yeah, so I was saying, I think enough on that point, I guess I got a hint from my technology over here. Let's go into talking about, the aspects of your life, either on the professional side. Again, it's surprising to people maybe surprising the 20 year old Cathy that you find yourself in the career that you do and how you are received and how you go through that.

on a day-to-day basis and then maybe reflecting on being a mom and a wife and being in a relationship and having a family again, the, today, Kathy, the younger version, Kathy, and how we got to where we are. And then this added dimension of being a mom of two boys that are also showing a bit of stuttering.

So any of those, where do you wanna go?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh yeah. work is a big thing. And as you were chatting, I thought about my old self and I would have never, ever thought I'd be in my current role or my prior role. if, when at the age of 20, so I began working at Ford. My first job there was, I was really young and it was, a call operator basically.

So we would take loss calls and I would. Transfer them to the right, the depart departments that take over a hundred, 150 calls a day. And the first couple of weeks there was someone on the line monitoring me just to make sure I, I know what I was doing. And that was so nerve-wracking, but that was fluent.

I was on my game because that was at the point of my time, my life, where I wasn't telling anybody what was going on. Again, I may use some words, I got the job done and it was great. I did that for a year and a half moved on to another role. And then my third role was in the executive office and I had no.

Qualms. Like I knew I'd be talking to vice presidents. I didn't think so as much, but then it evolved into a lot more and somehow I just dealt, I just did it. I just dove in, I'd see someone's name on my caller ID. And I'm like, I just would answer. And I think because I was so friendly and I chatted a lot, you Warm up the room.

that made me more comfortable. Yeah. And then I could pick the, I can choose the words that, I want, there are certain words that I did have minor black son. and that was fine. but I would've never thought I could be in that role. And then the current role I'm in now, that's it's related and I'm talking to executives that we just hired.

And high level and employees all over worldwide basis. And somehow I just, I had, no, I had to have to do a job. I always get my job done. And sometimes it caused myself more work by having to do more work on the backend. But. I did, however, there, I was in a town hall meeting when I first got into my prior role with VPs a couple of years into it.

And there was a vice president in finance and he got up there and he started blocking and I was like, what? And, about a year later I had a meeting with him cause he was a new VP. And this was one of the first people I told at work. So there was only two people that I've ever shared with that I'm a person who was stutters at work.

One was a good friend and that, and there's a long story behind that. I had a meeting with him and I said, do you have a minute? I want to talk to you about something, outside of work. And he looked at me like, when are you going to hit on me, yourself to the message? I thought he thought I was a dude, so I shut the door.

and then I began to tell him, I saw you at your town hall and, I'm, also a person who hoops, whose stutters I share with him like a five minute thing. And it was like, I, would've never thought that the person I'd come out to at work would be a VP. And we, after he retired, he had to email me about.

Things that I did in my prior role. And just, I don't know, it was cool to see someone go that high and he encouraged me a lot. Hey, if he could do this and for the thousands of people, why can't I do it in my. Smaller role.

Uri Schneider: that's what you're doing right now.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I am doing right now and I don't in the back of my head.

I'm going okay. What if someone sees this from work and starts asking me about it? What if someone in my, my friends see it and I just put that in the back of my mind.

Uri Schneider: Seinfeld episode with your worlds colliding, right? You said you've gotten into. With these folks I'm really open.

And there's the Cathy who's open about talking about this stuff, but then there's the work like holiday party crowd? no, we don't.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh, holiday parties. I'm fine. I'm

Uri Schneider: sorry,

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Cassie, like meetings, but

Uri Schneider: yeah, as being where you're at, you're in a pretty strong place, but there is that thought there's like separate worlds, separate personas, separate things that you share in one place that you might not share in another.

And by the way, that's so legitimate, right? there are certain things that don't belong. Yeah. In the work relationships and the work network that belong with your good friends and your more close social circle. So the legitimate, what do you think they would say? If they did see it? Like just to fantasize for a moment, let's say someone did this talk with me.

not you. Yeah. Because if you think about it, you're just going to blow a lid. Someone else was the same as you. And there's so many people out there, That they know there's something very real they're dealing with, but they keep a lid on it. And then they let it out a little bit, open up a little bit, disclose a little bit, but not everywhere all the time.

and they got exposed more than they wanted to in someone from let's say their church or something saw this conversation and they had not been open over there, but you think that person would think.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: They what they would ask me or what they,

Uri Schneider: no, it's not you Kathy.

it's an, and is covert. She's trying to hide this. She's having a conversation with a reach Snyder, but she's very cautious and kg. She doesn't want it, someone from the outside world to see it. Cause that would be like invasion overexposure. But I'm just wondering if we could step into Ann's experience if someone from her.

sure. Her office, what do you think they're thinking they would see an interview of an who they don't know stutters and she's talking about stuttering being a pretty big deal for her, but they didn't know. I would

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: think they would say, Oh, that's so great. I didn't know. tell me more about it.

Uri Schneider: you would say that was so great. So great. Tell me

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: more. and I know that, and I tell that to other people. I say, people don't go home and. Think about your bad luck, they think about their own. Everyone has baggage or everyone has something about them. They want to change right where they want to hide.

I think most people would be sifting about it. I live with my mother thinks I'm over it. Cause she'll see my son and be like, I remember when you were younger, she doesn't know every year for 18 years, 19 years, I went away with hundreds of friends. She just thought they went all the time with friends.

I never told her of my, how I was involved or how I still hide it for the most part or even around her.

Uri Schneider: What's the upside of hiding it, Kathy. I'm not pushing you in any direction I'm interested. Cause I think there's validity. I want to validate that. I think for myself, for example, I have things that I grapple with that I choose to be very open and vulnerable.

And bring it to an authentic presentation of myself. And then there are things that, I might disclose in some measure, there are things I might keep myself, they have no business. The cost is greater than the reward. the risk is greater than what I'm ready to take and what the upside might be.

So I'm, I just want what's the voice or the rationale that Kathy has, or someone could have to keep it under wraps with mom or keep it from work. What's the upside of that.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I think it's just a, I accept it. I think it's just, I'll take it to a different level of, except Dennis, I think, I don't know.

And I've ponder that before. I just think people know me as certain way and I've hidden it for so long. I feel like I can be myself around people who's Southern any type of related events. But around people who aren't, I feel like I'm myself, but there is that piece of meat. I'm just so used to, I'm like a robot I'm used to hiding it.

I'm used to changing words,

Uri Schneider: Kathy you're so not a robot. That's not fair.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: the, I wouldn't,

Uri Schneider: we're a creature of habit. Like you have familiar teens, like your familiar routine.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I don't know. I th I'm just so used to doing it and the days. Where I allow myself to block a lot, like at home or at the same events, I'm more exhausted allowing it out.

It's more tiring than when I,

Uri Schneider: there you go. But conservation of energy,

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I don't know. And there's times I say, Dateline calls me I'm on that show, but then I think, Ooh, that would be big. I don't know, but my boys are definitely teaching me as a mom teaching me to be more okay with it because they're okay with it.

It took me like, they don't even, it took me up to last year to tell them like, what's going on when your words come out. Cause they had no idea that they were even doing it until like in the last, like maybe six months. So they're teaching me, it doesn't matter. So

Uri Schneider: I remember Kathy, just to share with people, how much the NSA, the national setting association, these conferences are like an alternate universe.

When I go to the national stuttering association, just full disclosure here, I don't stutter. The greatest compliment I get is when people think I do, because they think, because I understand it somewhat and I seem to be relatable in that way. But I don't, I just listen and I try to spend time with a lot of people and listen to their stories.

And that's what gives me insight. So I went to an NSA conference and we go to a hotel. I can't remember someone here knows the story. I think it was Baltimore and go to the bartender and get some seltzer water or whatever. Maybe I was there with Kevin fringes and the guy, the bartenders debtors, and he starts getting orders from all these guests in the hotel.

And each of them in their own way are having these stuttering experiences. And at first it's Oh, that's not right. That's not cool. what do you guys like? Some people imitate me, but now I got 20, 30, 40 people imitating me this isn't right. What's going on, ganging up. And then he realizes he finds out.

no. They're not making fun of you. Like we all talk this way. This is. A stuttering conference. There's 600 people here who stutter. And I think he took the next day off and joined the conference. But, it's interesting. Cause in that space I get in an elevator and I'm the minority, I, as a person who does not stutter the conversation, the cadence, the music around me is different variations of expression with different, staccato and different cadence.

And I'm the one that doesn't have that. And so that's just, it's just a really interesting thing because it speaks to the fact of, it's not like one thing's good, one thing's bad. It's more like what we're accustomed to and what feels awfully different, what feels normal and what feels abnormal, because it's so rare.

So I think it's interesting for people listening. I'm just putting this out there. I think the upside of continuing the way you've done until now for anybody is it's, what's familiar and it's kept you safe. And the exposure and vulnerability and potential pain and hurt that could come is a frightening thing.

So as much as one might want to venture there's a lot of good reason to resist it. And if you're on that journey as a therapist, I would say a good thought or a framework could be one of many to entertain. what's the worst case scenario. What would happen? Let's say you ventured out until now you go to bars and you will always use a pseudonym.

Because you figure it's just going to be a one-off thing. But what if you're that person that came to my dad and said, listen, I'm about to get engaged, but that's congratulations. He's no, this is a big problem. Why? I've already met the family and they still think my name is Andrew. It's not it's Josh.

I just changed my name on the first day because I didn't think anything was going to go anywhere. Now. We're getting engaged. She needs to know she's not mad or being Andrew she's marrying Josh. I think thinking about why one does what they do, what purpose it serves, because there's gotta be a purpose, right?

It's gotta be beneficial if we keep doing it. And then if you want to change something, it goes back to what I said earlier. I think you got to think not all or nothing. It's gotta be shades of comfort of just stepping out and branching out that comfort zone. So I think about people like kids, when you go away for a day or two, maybe you go to bed breakfast, or there's a swimming pool.

And one kid is still tiptoeing around the pool. He hasn't gone in the pool and you've been there for a day and a half and it's come on kid. We got another half a day. We got the place with the pool. You're not even going in the, come on. Do you kick the kid in the pool? Do you tell them I'll hold your hand.

We'll go in together. I got you. I won't let you go. Or do you say. He needs his Daniel time, because if we rush him, we're gonna start the clock all over again. And I think with this, it's somewhat similar. How are we, do we want to make a big jump? And we want someone to push us to go have this watershed experience, or we want support, want to do it with someone that's going to be there through the experience or two just needs to take her dandy old time.

Some people get there in a quicker pace. Some people get there later. Just some thoughts of how I look at variability for different people to expand. If you have time, Kathy, do you have a few minutes?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh yeah, I got the day off. So

Uri Schneider: great. So we're going to do a 24 hour conversation now, but maybe you could share just about being a mom of boys who stutter and how they're teaching you.

I think that's such a beautiful thing. And as a father of four, I'm always wowed by the times that I give my kids the space to. To do things that I was scared to let them do, because I thought they'd get hurt or I thought they wouldn't do it. So I'll tell my kids, like back then I worried, and now I see you.

I see how hard you work. I see how resourceful you are. I see what a great problem solver you are. I see you're making it like now I know you're going to make it. And I tell my kids problem solving is the most important skill, more than calculus. More than biology, problem-solving and that kind of stuff.

So for you, I'm sure your kids, aren't just doing it from nowhere. I'm sure it has lots to do with their mom and their dad, but what's for you, what's for you. that experience of being a mom, being a woman who stutters having two beautiful boys. And, and they're going through this experience, what are the, I don't know, I'm sure that's a lot there.

So maybe you could just share.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Yeah. I th I think all of us, who, when we have kids, if there's something about our ourselves that we really don't want to pass on to them, this was one thing. So I thought, I re of all things. This is fine. when you're having kids, you're like, I don't want to pass on just this fluency something I spent most of my life hating onto my children.

But the key is to, if you want to change. Is to help them realize Elissa. And in my case that it's no big deal. It's just a piece of you. It's a small piece. don't let him get in the way I've been telling them that since they one don't let anything get in the way of what you do or, in anyone.

And one of my, oldest, Luke, when he was three, when, he began to talk, he was a delayed, he had delayed speech. there were some blocks on that, but I thought all he's learning how to talk and then it just never went away. And we would be around my friends who didn't know and they'd be like, she, and once in a while I would be like, yeah, I do too. And then I move on. I change. I totally didn't want to talk about it other times. I'd be like, yeah, he's in speech, And it's they've taught me to be, to own more, to be a better parent, to help them. And they've never let it get in the way of what they're saying.

They, if I interrupt them, just because of like time, let's go. They keep talking and they say, I'm not done talking. And I'm like, that's great. I, would've never done that. you can, Finish my sentences with them. you can. So I think, I don't think it's anything I'm doing. I think it's just them.

I think part of it is us making it known. You can say what you want to say, take your time, but it's really them holding their own ground. So I've never taught my son. If your teas, this is what you do. I was right there. And I couldn't believe he did that. And so I asked him, I said, why did you tell him that?

because it's not right. It's just who I am. And I'm like, that's what I've been telling him. It's just a piece of who you are, but I didn't,

Uri Schneider: you keep, putting away the credit that you deserve, because you did tell him that it's just a part of who you are.

that was the seed. That was the seed.

Kathy. I think that sprouted that really, Became this courage muscle for him to say, wait a second. That's just who I am. It's no, there's no one has a right to make fun of that. I'm gonna finish my sentence. I think that's so powerful.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Yeah. Yeah. He, at six years old, I wouldn't have done that at 26 or even last year, or I don't, I need to be better at doing that.

So they're teaching actually it's reversed. They're teaching me. To be better at being more open about the less ashamed. I think in the years in the last four or five years, I've become a little bit more open it. Like when I meet new people here, like when they share about, Oh, I hate this about myself. I'd be like, I, so there's been a few people I've told, but even I go back to, even if they know I still don't allow my blacks out.

So it's and you gave me a lot to think about when you said. What would be so bad if I did, why do I continue to hide? and I don't know those answers.

Uri Schneider: I said it a little differently. Cause I don't, I'm not judging it negatively. I want to judge it favorably. What's the upside. What does it serve you?

How does it help? And I think what you said a few times, which is valid, I'm all I'm here to help people. See, I think you represent first of all, a woman's voice and there aren't as many women. Sharing their stories. So I thank you for that. And many people have appreciated that. I think that you're a person in a career path.

our good friend, also Derek Mitchell down from Georgia, shout out to Derek, talked about similar, working in HR and working with people. And there were challenging moments, but I think the message for many people is you can do anything. You could be an HR in a fortune 500 company and climb that ladder and make it and have a family and do all these things.

Even if you're not perfect. Even if you're still not fully on the end of the journey that you dreamed to be moving along. So I think that's beautiful. And I also want to get permission to figure out your comfort zone, not measured by someone else's yard stick. And I think for everybody to ask themselves, why do I do this?

I must, it must serve a purpose. And I think for you that familiarity, like you said, it's you're a creature of habit and. and we can change habits. That's, what's nice about habits. You can't change. If you stutter, you can't change the color of your skin. but you can change habits.

If you're not a morning person, it might never be easy. But if you do it enough times and you crank back the clock, you wake up the alarm clock 10 minutes earlier for a month and keep cranking it back. You could train yourself those kinds of things. Those are. Habits quality of life. And then if you decide this isn't working for me, like I'm tired by the end of the day.

And I'm a night owl. I want to go back to be night out and just go right back to the United States. But if it brings you greater satisfaction to make that shift, then that's great. I think it was stuttering. It's very nuanced and not enough people. I think we need to talk about that nuance. It's more like what's an open variable.

What's a closed variable. What's legitimate and what's not legitimate. And I think there's more room. for people to do things their way, but chase the things they want to chase. with your kids, for example, and I want to say to all the parents, adults, speech therapist, and I think Kathy I'd love your feedback.

I think the most important thing is keep your kids talking and to de-stigmatize, whatever it is not because you're saying this is the way it's going to be. And you're resigning to this is it for life on the contrary. If you de-stigmatize it and you keep them talking, which is the goal, keep them connected and social and expressive and curious.

That's what it's all about. And that's the biggest risk with stuttering and many speech communication differences is it could impair the person's comfort with just being themselves, just being who they really are, their full spirit of curiosity and interest and confidence, and just going for things that's, what's at risk.

It's not about how they talk. So I think it's beautiful when a parent doesn't see it as their job to smother the stutter, eliminate the stutter or erase the stutter. That might be one of a couple of things you might want to make it easier for them. But number one, top line and bottom line, keep them talking, keep feeling good about themselves and the way you do that is by what you did get.

If you've given a values as my dad will always say, right? Giving values. It's an emotional strategy, just like a speech strategy, giving them values to know just the part of you, So using language that's descriptive, not judgemental, making it something we could talk about making it a topic.

That's not taboo. It's I had a hard day. I felt like tripped and I scraped my knee. Oh, I shot that basketball shot. Everybody was hoping I'd make it. And I air balled. Oh. They put me in the team. Oh, great. How'd it go? I forgot which way we were going. I got to rebound and I shot a basket for the wrong team.

It happens. It happens, happened to me. So I think that those lessons, I just want to highlight, and I think that's what you've done, is that we give our kids values, let them find their way and realize that's legit. And as you said, we learn from next generation. My father always said that to me, that was his hope as a father and my mother as a mother.

That there would be things that me and my brother would have opportunities they didn't have and somehow achieve things that they felt they couldn't achieve themselves, but they wanted to pass that opportunity to us, me and my brother, if we chose it. And I see that my wife and I, what we try to do for our kids, I think that's very healthy, learning from our kids, examples, seeing the courage that they exhibit and most importantly, with covert.

What you're giving your kids early on is showing them the courage to be, to let it out and to be authentic. Once you start doing the covert thing, like you said, that becomes your routine. it's harder to shift for awhile. So you get to a really comfortable place. But for our, all of our kids, if they stutter, we have to be very nuanced and delicate and thoughtful and deliberate that whatever we do to help them make it easier to get the words out.

That's the first thing. And the last thing should be that they feel. Okay. and that they feel like they can express themselves and be heard no matter what.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: So let me ask, so let me ask you this, because this is key for a lot of the SLPs out there. How would you treat a person who's Suthers?

Who's covert who's like me that doesn't want to be open about it because I've, that's always a topic that is very interesting.

Uri Schneider: You want to go there? We're going to go there.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I do. I would like to

Uri Schneider: beautiful. I did tell you, and I've enjoyed telling everybody and my future guests flip the table, please, go ahead.

That's fantastic. I want it to be a real give and take. and just to acknowledge again, some really beautiful comments. I've tried to weave them in and, but if we don't get to, I'm sure that Kathy and I will try to go through and respond personally, but we appreciate all of you coming and your comments and your shares.

it means a lot to us and it also helps get this conversation out there. so first of all, and this more than, it sounds like a cliche, we don't look at people as covert and overt. It's not really in our lexicon. people come to us because there's something about communication where they feel held back something about the way they talk or their spouse or their child, or their parent is going through something that.

Connecting openly communicating successfully is getting interfered with. So I think the question I would ask the person who comes, who presents as covert, which means they're pretty darn good at hiding the stutter. It's not a huge experience on the surface. So a lot of people may have told them what it's not worth dealing.

Yeah, you're fine. What are you doing? You don't even stutter, you're over it, Kathy. You're done. I'm so happy. You don't stutter like you did when you were 16. How do I tell you that? I, it's still a big deal. So first of all, validating that the person knows why they're there. So if it's an adult or a teenager, why are they there?

So for some people it's because they have such a rocking horse, such a wild horse in their stuttering. They couldn't control it to save the world. And those are the words of Frankie Jones. And Michael, even in the film, transcending, stuttering the documentary, and then there's people who were more covert like a taro Alexander, who, or others who, really were hoping.

No one would notice hoping it wouldn't stop them in their pursuit of relationships and career. And then like you, taro has a very similar example where he gets on the stage and he has this really. Moment of exposure, any trips up on the line, he has a stutter and he feels like his whole career path is shot.

And he opens up to his roommate who tells them, I stuttered too. And he's no, I never heard you stutter. How could it be? It doesn't compute. I think the person who hides the stutter, but it's a big deal for them. I would be looking at, first of all, what's not going well. what do you want to do more?

What do you want to do less? maybe you want to be a motivational speaker. You don't want to be an HR. Maybe you want to be the CEO of Ford and you don't want to be on the track that you're on, or maybe whatever. What is it you want to achieve that you can't, or maybe you're tired of managing it.

it's been exhausting. So I would ask a person with reverence that they know themselves. What brought you, what makes it worthwhile taking the time to sit with me? and I don't think it's about the speech as much as you want something. And this gets in the way, I think a patch Adams, no patch Adams movie, favorite movie.

So he says, he goes to the, it was a psychiatric hospital and there's all these people there and they tell them, Oh, this guy comes up and he says, how many fingers How many fingers And he says this to everybody, and everybody says four. And this older gentleman putting his hand in everybody's face wearing a hospital gown he's Oh, you idiots.

And so everybody writes him off and figures he's lost his mind because obviously there's four fingers. The patch, Adam says, there's something, there's a human being in there. And it turns out he was like a mathematician genius. So patch Adam goes to the room at night and this man was like one of these really groggy, nasty, grumpy, old guys that nobody wanted to engage because it was going to be trouble.

Badge Adams goes and he sees that his T is dripping on his paper and he fixes the leak and the gentleman turns around and it shows him a little bit of softer side. Thank you. It's a patch. Adam says to me, he says what's with the four what's with the fingers. So the gentleman says then like this, and I think it's such a great story and such a great analogy for stuttering.

He says, how many fingers do you see my friend and patch? Adam says. If I say what I see, you're going to react the same way you do all day. He says, no, I'll look carefully. Let's see four says, look carefully. If you focus on the fingers, four fingers, but everybody now, wherever you are, Cathy, you could do it to take your own hand, put up your forefingers, put them between your face and the screen that you're looking at and look at your fingers.

And you'll see four fingers. Now, if you focus not on your fingers, but you focus on the screen behind your fingers. You're bringing your hand halfway between you and the screen, or maybe even closer to your face and you focus on the screen. You'll notice that you start to see eight fingers. You see it. If you focus on the screen, don't focus on your fingers, put your focus on the screen.

Boom. So the point that this character was there to teach all of us is that we think that the hand is the problem. The hand is the distraction. What we want to go for. If we stay focused on the screen, the things and obstacles that stand in the way starts to fade away and they start to look quite different.

So I think the person who's covert may come in thinking the solution is to get rid of the stutter or stop stuttering, or maybe the solution is I gotta be open everywhere. Frankly, none of those are right. Person who comes in, especially in adult is coming because there's something that's not clicking it.

There's something in their professional, personal social life that they feel is too costly, too effortful, too much, compromising too much facade, too much effort to keep up this charade, this identity. That's not me. or there's something they want to get. And they've been able to succeed at levels that everyone is wowed by, but for themselves, they have an unmet ambition that they have not yet embodied.

That's what I want to know. Because when we figure that out, for example, there were things that you said, Kathy, when I asked you, what might you want to be doing? what difference would it make if you didn't still have a little bit of the baggage of ducking and dodging? I think that's the question.

Everyone should ask themselves with whatever it can be, your own emotional stuff. It can be circumstantial stuff in your life. It could be. your physical living space is too small. It could be, a child with a learning challenge, whatever it is. That's not the problem. the problem for many parents with child who stutters is.

I wanted him to have a good social life in middle school. I wanted him to be able to get into this college and have this job and work at Ford in HR. And now that he stutters, there's no way he'll ever do that. Or I want him to be a CEO of GE general electric. There's no way that kid could be he stutters, but then you look at Jack Welch and in the same sentence, Kathy, of course, listen, everybody went through Ford.

Let's have some Ford pride, American pride, but, this is a day to be proud of. Whatever we can in America. But, you look at Jack Welch and you look at Kathy and those parents can say, wow, Kate, who stutters can grow up to be anything can do anything they want to do for the person who is still bothered by their stutter or bothered by the hiding of it.

there isn't like a binary answer of, it's gotta be like this. It's gotta be like, this question is how do we get to the goals? So if you might run some meetings differently or you might. Do you certain conversations instead of using the email as much as you might, or things like that, or you don't like the way you get on that phone call or introduce yourself at that a conference call or whatever, then that's what we should work on.

And tow our ways into that, as opposed to thinking, we got to solve the finger problem. The problem is not the fingers. The fingers are just a distraction. You got to deal with them to the measure that they're getting in the way. But if we focus on the fingers, we'll never get to the real stuff. And the real stuff lies beyond the finger.

So I try to keep our focus on the goal and then deal with anything in the way as it comes. But most people, once they get there, they know exactly what they need and often they can help themselves quite a bit. And if we can be a guide or a support along the way, or a community of people to be a support.

Oh, bless. That's great. Having a mentor like Kathy could be great.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I had to tell you, I've been, On all ends. People have said, just try being open or, for many years, but the way you phrased asking me that it made me think more than anyone. Why, where does the big deal? Like, why am I not like at this point in my life?

so you give me something to think about. and there's sometimes I dream about it's NSA day or that it's N NS, nationals NSA w and, and as a day, and I thought, Oh, that'd be cool. Just put a post out there and get feedback. And every time we'd go to raise money, I'd probably raise a little bit more because I have a lot of friends who are various,

but I don't know. I just can't bring myself to do that.

Uri Schneider: Kathy, I just want to,

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: but I just, I don't know how so you've given me some thought provoking, things to think about

Uri Schneider: you, you brought it out of me, but I would say consider it in measure. Like you don't have to post it publicly. You could share it on messenger with a few people.

And I think that again, going back to framing everything in a positive way, Kathy's important. Cause you'll frame it or many people frame it as why don't I do that? what's wrong with me? Cause that's what some people say. why do I keep doing the same thing that I'm unhappy? Why do I keep doing that?

But ask it in a positive way. W what does that serve me? First of all, what do I want, what I really want? And then once what you really want you figure out, what does that have? It does that way of coping. Does that adaptation help me get it with openness on Facebook, to be totally honest, there are many causes and topics let's take.

my vote, I think is a great example. I'm not going to say who I voted for it and we're not going to get political, but it's exactly that point in America. there's a value. There's a respect for the democratic process that we don't talk about, who we voted for. And that is something that is sacrosanct.

That's something that we respect for a reason. And as most of us grew up in America, that was something you just didn't even ask you. Didn't talk about it. so especially when the conversations are hot, I'm surprised by many people who really go out there and say all kinds of things as if someone's going to change their opinion, because they saw them posting on Facebook.

So in that case, openness is not the answer. a little bit of, a little bit of, modesty and keeping it private is a virtue. So I think similarly, like there are topics about my religious identity or about my, maybe my other identities that I have. We all have so many hats that we wear. We might not want that in the public space and we might not want that to be such a prominent thing about the way people think about us.

It doesn't mean we're doing anything bad. Could be deliberate. It could help us, I don't want people to think of me having an opinion about a certain hot topic. Not because I'm scared to voice my opinion, but I don't want that to create barriers or create friction. I want to create comfort and real connection and space for openness.

And if I bring certain things in, you can either make me uncomfortable, make them uncomfortable. And I don't want that. So my goal is openness and connection, and I dial up and dial things down accordingly. I'll leave you with this last thought. It was from a business podcast that I think this comes from Warren buffet or bill Gates.

One of them, a beautiful thought about how to make decisions and it applies to what we're talking about. You got to think of the upside. So let's say your friend comes to, you says this and you got a hundred bucks. I got an investment. It's going to be 10 X return. wow. Sounds awesome. who wouldn't want to go in on that right early, it's not insider information.

It's just like insider information, but we won't get in trouble. Okay. Now, if you're smart, what's the next question you ask, teach your kids to ask what's the downside. There's no downsides could be 10 X, but the investor needs to know there's a possibility you lose the whole thing.

That's the downside. So most of us make decisions based on that. We stop there. So when it's money, it's very simple. It's metric, but all these things, all the risks we take in life are really the same. What's the upside. What's the downside. And the next question is the magic question, which was suggested as only asked by the Warren buffets and the bill Gates.

And now all of us could steal it as well. What's the upside 10 X return. What's the downside of this. The whole thing still don't know how to make a decision because it's very enticing. If I only got a hundred bucks, I'm all in 10 X. Yeah. my FBIC insured bank account doesn't do that much. My mutual fund doesn't do that much.

I don't get many chances to get in early, before I see it in the news and wish I got in. So I'm going all in, but I could lose it all, but I could win it all. The best question is the third one, which is, can I live with the downside? Good. If you have another thousand bucks in the bank. Give your friend a hundred bucks could be a reasonable thing.

Cause maybe you could live with the downside, but for someone else, maybe that downside is not something they can tolerate. So with, I think as we ventured to expand our comfort zones, we all know there's something waiting on the other side of where we've created these imaginary lines, but there's reason not to just jump out there and just, go full on naked.

there's an upside, there's a downside and we need to be ready to live with the downside. And if we are, then it's worth taking the risk because there is an upside waiting there, but we also can't put ourselves in a position that the downside would crush us. So I think everybody could use that potentially in this conversation as well.

What do you think?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I agree with that points to ponder.

Uri Schneider: Points to ponder, but it's been a record-setting time. we covered a lot. I want to thank you, Cathy. Thank everybody. A lot of our friends, for coming and I'll give Kathy the opportunity for the final words, but I just want to thank everybody for the time.

Attention concentration. I think this was extremely honest, personal, and open, which is not. Easy and not to be taken for granted. So I want to thank you, Kathy. I think a lot of the people that were here created a safe space, even though it's just virtual support. you're near and dear to Kathy and known and dear to me as well, many of you and those that are not yet, we hope to get to know you more.

I give a plug for the national stuttering association. We stutter.org, tons of programming going on, great opportunities, especially in the area of employment. So people that are looking for ways to crack that. Or just talk about, the challenges there and opening doors. there are more opportunities to talk about that and even get access into interviews or mock interviews.

There's all kinds of great stuff. National stuttering association is leading with many good programs and there's lots of other good stuff. You can see the playback of this and all the conversations@schneiderspeech.com slash events. And we also wants to do for the end of the year. If you're still here, you're a real fan.

At the end of the year, we want to create like a highlight mashup. We could just do this one as the highlight, but we should take from all of them. So if you have certain interviews or certain moments that you liked, I would love if you could share with us, which episode at which moment you felt would be a highlight, and then we can create a beautiful compilation and co-create that together.

So I'll leave it to Kathy to take us home.

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: I just wanted to advise anyone who's hearing this. For the first time. And you wonder upon these videos definitely seek out the national stuttering association. and there's local chapters all over the U S if there's not one in your area, you could begin to, but reach out, they have online zooms.

Now they have in-person. Meaning, some of them do so definitely reach out. You are not alone. And for those of you who would like to join, we have, we're Facebook group that's private. So it won't show up in your feed. It'll show up in your feed, but no one could see you're a member you can reach out to me directly, or you can, search for.

Covert prove them that I'm

stuttering so court and you sh you could find us there. so I just want to give that plug, thank you so much for having me on it's. It's been great. And, thank you for all the work you do. You're very passionate. In your role and how you educate and just having a forum for people to share their journey is helping not only did this help me, but it's going to help others.

and every interview you do does that. thank you very much for that.

Uri Schneider: Thank you. You mentioned people could contact you for that information. Do you want to share, or you could let me know if there's any contact that you want to share. Who do you have a preferred method or you want to let me know later?

Cathy Olish-Maciejewski: Oh yeah. No, if you want to look me up on Facebook it's Kathy OLIS Massachus ski, does type Polish and it'll be easy to find. Or my email is, Cat C a T and then my last name, C a T M a S T I E J E w S K I n@gmail.com. Love to talk with you and help you out as a person who stutters as someone who hides it or as a parents as well.

Uri Schneider: sorry. Generous, very generous. I can tell there's a lot that Kathy can share and offer, and I appreciate the time and this conversation and hopefully the first of many, and listen, you brought the Massey and I brought the juicy. It works. signing off. Thank everybody. Wish everybody stay healthy, stay well and, take care of yourself and connect with other people and have conversations.

And let's try to restore the decency and the ability to connect with people that we might disagree with and people that might have different experiences than us. And if we listen. We can learn and expand our understanding and experience and perspective beyond the confines of our limited life that we've had till now it can enrich us and we should not be too scared to do that because everybody in this country and the world really just wants to have a conversation.

That'd be able to be heard and to reciprocate that. And for people that can't give you that don't talk to us,

everybody be well.